Strange question... as you strictly need at least STR 15, WIS 17 and CHA 17 to even dual-class to a druid. What else? INT 9 so you would not be illiterate and could use scrolls ... high DEX for AC bonus if you don't want to depend on a buff? ... Hhigh CON for HP? Assume you ignore the warrior bonus and choose only 16 ... it still piles up quickly. Just do the maths.
Kensai to Cleric is definately better imho, assuming you want a superbrute to stomp anyone and everything. Clerics have the best self-buffs for combat, and get Chaotic Commands eventually, covering for not being a berserk. 9th is the min for kensai dualing out unless you're a brick short, because a berserk is just plain better in every way until then, and even at 9th, other than a cleric, I'd go berserker. That Kensai will rely on DR rather than AC, using AoF and anytjing else he has kicking around to boost it.
Obviously, dualing to Druidnis incredibly stat intensive, you need 15 str min to dual from fighter, and must have 17 wis and cha to dualmto Druid, on top of being True Neutral. A kensai might need more dex/cons than an armoured berserker, being ultra squishy, so another point in favour of doing a berserker druid and kensai cleric.
Druid is nice to dual to at 7th lvl I think, especially in a party with multiple duals, as they get their stuff back superfast.
Skald is not ideal in small parties, unless you intend to run tons of summons.
Blades make a very useful fighter/mage hybrid, more defensively capable than a FM dual (but losing GM hurts, and no 9th lvl spells), and is probably better overall than FM multi in IWD, though an IF gnome has a big edge. Your biggest weakness btw is having 18 str. The Strength spell helps, but you will likely need to find a bigger boost later or just accept being the unhittable tank.
Strength buffs are KINDA a big deal in IWDEE. The Cleric will be by far the better damage dealer because of it. Makes sense to me to make the dps guy the dps guy, rather than dilute. High level kensai to cleric is a heck of a hard hitter, and he gets enough durability to take a few hits when he uses DR gear and AoF.
FM multi is kinda crap in IWD. No GM, no HLA, later access to mage spells than a dual, way worse caster level than a Bard, and the highest ACs aren't terribly high. Multis as a rule are much worse in IWD than BG, except for 3 ways. Going FI gnome is fine, as the saves are pretty handy once in awhile, and 'dat helm, but duals are really, really solid in IWD.
Kensai/Druids will start auto hitting everything fairly quickly. So there's no "diluting" going on. As far as damage goes, DUHM and Righteous Magic work exactly the same on a Kensai/Cleric as it will on a Berserker/Cleric.
Also a Kensai/Druid will be able to get to the front line much earlier, without risking an enemy switching targets, which they do if another target is close enough, than the Kensai/Cleric thanks to Iron Skin and Bark Skin.
What exactly do dual F>M's have to do with a F/M and Blade comparison?
And a Blade has no GM, no specialization, no Fighter bonus APR, spell access is fairly pointless as scrolls come slowly in IWD, caster level is also pointless for nearly anything that isn't a damage spell, buff spells will last long enough even with multiclass levels.
Besides, damage spells are something the Sorc should be doing anyway and they'll do it better since they have access to any spell as they level.
Defensive Spin's AC? Why would that matter? Shield + Stone Skin + Mirror Image is more than enough especially since the first run isn't HoF.
Playing without access to Berserker immunities is less fun generally, moreso early. A 3 or 4 character party will want someone tough early, and Berserkers are about the toughest until people start getting DR, those bonus HP and AC are superb. Besides, a Druid dual is VERY stat intensive. You can only dump int, and a kensai more than any warrior requires excellent stats at low levels, or they are just kite-bait, which a small party can't take advantage of as easy. He'll also get pincushioned by archers if he's trying to kite melees backed up by archers, which isn't exactly rare in IWD, especially before you get back your kensai abilities. So, unless you rolled a 91 on a human fighter, thats a very unpleasant dual. In BG, there are ways to buff a low dex or str in both games, but not really in IWD.
The Cleric CAN safely neglect str (down to 15 obviously) for his dual if he needs to, since he can buff it by spell to absurd levels with 2 spells. They can even wield the Giving Star early to boost str at times. Once the Cleric has a few levels, he can combine DR gear with AoF for solid protection if needed, and he WILL out damage the Druid in battle due to his high str score. Heck, he can have the Druid or a Mage cast an armouring spell too, so the druid getting Barkskin is an empty point.
I do agree Ironskins is a decent spell, which is why I said the Druid ought to be the tank, and go Berserker. He can dual earlier too that way, 7th lvl being reasonable for a berserker. You get 5 apr with Valiant iirc at 7th lvl, though Druids do not have great main weapons compared to clerics, which is another reason to go with defensive druid.
Relevant point too, if you want the Kensai to be worth bothering with, you need to dual no earlier than 9th, and quite possibly you'll want to go for 13th to give the option of not using a speed weapon, remember Righteous Wrath! We are talking a small party after all. That cleric will actually be a top tier hitter, while the Kensai Druid amounts to a decent attacker only. Dualing to Kensai at 9th nabs +1 to hit and damage vs a Berserker, and you lose some decent gear choices for it. Helms are nice, especially on a defensive fighter as you and I agree the Druid will end up being.
Edit: Incase you didn't notice, I did not recomend use of a Blade; I answered the question why choose Blade over Skald. Either way, Defensive Spin is an awesome defensive option, and will rather obviously make your MI and Stoneskins last longer. Btw smarty-pants, caster level has a pretty big effect on some spells, IE Mirror Image and Stoneskin. The fact that your Skull Trap will be more damaging than the Sorcerer's should also be self-explanatory. Anyways, I'm done arguing over something I did not even recommend with someone who seems to like arguing a bit too much.
CON can be set to 10, since low level Kensais will instantly die if they get hit anyway.
So 18 STR, 18 DEX, 17 WIS, 17 CHA, 10 CON, 3 INT = 83. Which is very easy to roll and even enough to get high exceptional Strength (not that it matters much)
91 for 18 CON is also doable, but makes high exceptional Strength practically luck.
So I really don't see why this is a problem.
Also really level 9? It's +1 Damage. At best that's 20 Damage per round (and that's with 10 Critical Hits) Fairly irrelevant in Insane, and in HoF is just a cup in the bucket.
Also why does Righteous Wrath matter so much? It's simply a slightly stronger Haste spell and those two can't be stacked.
Why would a Druid require a Helm? They have Iron Skin. Why would they require armor when they have Barkskin. Damage reduction? That's what Iron Skin and Bark Skin are for. They simply do not get hit.
Clerics are the one getting hit, they're the ones who need damage reduction.
Why would Mirror Image and Stone Skin need to last longer? This is Insane, not HoF. Enemies die quickly. Also levels for Stone Skin? How long does it take to kill enemies? Stone Skin can be recast when it runs out.
Also Skull Trap dealing an extra few D6's of damage is pretty irrelevant when the Sorcerer can just cast another one thanks to having more casts per level.
A Fighter/Mage or Blade is there to deal damage with weapons, and the Fighter/Mage is better at that. Defensive Spin only matters if the party is so underpowered that killing enemies with regular non-HoF HP takes forever. Which a group with a Sorcerer and 3 Fighter spellcasters isn't.
Like Southpaw said, a classic warrior, healer, wizard, and thief are a great design.
My personal choice for simple yet exceptionally effective would be: Dwarven Defender (Tank) Halfling Fighter/Thief (Thief skills and ranged DPS) Gnome Fighter/Illusionist (Ungodly beast of destruction, as any F/M is) Half-orc Fighter/Cleric (Melee DPS and healer)
Which stats would you sacrifice then to make a succesfull Kensai to Druid?
I'd keep rolling until I have the 90 points needed for 18/18/18/3/18/15.
I'd still recommend Avenger rather than K->D for a 3 person party as it's more fun I think with a lot of variety in how you overcome different obstacles.
There's really no variety with the Avenger if teamed up with other spellcasters, like the Sorcerer. It's summon stuff, cast Web (or Stinking Cloud) then cast AoE damage spells until enemies are dead.
There's really no variety with the Avenger if teamed up with other spellcasters, like the Sorcerer. It's summon stuff, cast Web (or Stinking Cloud) then cast AoE damage spells until enemies are dead.
Repeat.
Having played a couple of small parties with an Avenger I have to disagree. Many of the forms are powerful but can only be used once and the extra spells provide significant options even if they can be cast by other characters.
My experience was that many encounters could be overcome using different combinations of spells and forms with the Avenger filling different roles for different fights from tank to disabler to melee damage to spell damage.
And which fights aren't solved by summons tanking and Spike Growth killing stuff? Especially if there's a Sorcerer standing beside it using its own damage spells and crowd control spells?
Kensai to Cleric is definately better imho, assuming you want a superbrute to stomp anyone and everything. Clerics have the best self-buffs for combat, and get Chaotic Commands eventually, covering for not being a berserk. 9th is the min for kensai dualing out unless you're a brick short, because a berserk is just plain better in every way until then, and even at 9th, other than a cleric, I'd go berserker. That Kensai will rely on DR rather than AC, using AoF and anytjing else he has kicking around to boost it.
Obviously, dualing to Druidnis incredibly stat intensive, you need 15 str min to dual from fighter, and must have 17 wis and cha to dualmto Druid, on top of being True Neutral. A kensai might need more dex/cons than an armoured berserker, being ultra squishy, so another point in favour of doing a berserker druid and kensai cleric.
Druid is nice to dual to at 7th lvl I think, especially in a party with multiple duals, as they get their stuff back superfast.
I disagree, K->D is better than K->C if you only choose one and the other as berserker as the K->D gets AoF and CC anyway but most importantly they also get the very handy Ironskins overcoming the single biggest weakness of kensei: critical hit vulnerability.
As far as XP goes the xp curve of Druid makes it super easy to complete the 9/10 dual needing just 375k xp. On the flip side, a B->C dual at 7 needs just 174k xp compared to 700k for the 9/10 K->C.
Another important distinction is that the K->D can become an effective tank as soon as it hits level 7 Druid alongside the B->C who can also tank in heavy armour. In contrast a K->C will be quite vulnerable until higher level when important items become available and AoF gets the necessary caster levels. Finally, a K->C might need to use a defender weapon more often rather than the optimal Stunner/Fast Flail combination eroding any damage advantage that it has over the berserker variant.
As an addendum I'll add that a multi or dual Druid should still be restricted to Druid armour so I feel good about a K->D who relies on his own barkskin spell rather than a B->D in layers of metal armour (in direct contravention of the characters faith and beliefs).
Having played a couple of small parties with an Avenger I have to disagree. Many of the forms are powerful but can only be used once and the extra spells provide significant options even if they can be cast by other characters.
I wouldn't call it "significant options" or "a lot of variety". With the Avenger and Dragon Disciple in my last party, it was more like a competition between the two. Instead of having the Avenger casting Web first ... while the Sorcerer may start with Grease ... the Avenger could cast a divine spell and let the Sorcerer take over all the arcane magic business. Afterall, the Avenger is a druid. The occasional chain-lightning thrown in doesn't make a big difference anymore.
Key to having fun with druids in general is to use their unique spells as often as possible. If neglecting spells like Smashing Wave or Wall of Moonlight, playing a small party will get even more repetitive.
You'll always be better off using the better defensive character as the defense specialist. Diluting cleric with berserker in IWD isn't necessary, and worrying about XP isn't necessary in a small party on a long haul playthrough. Can either work? Sure, thats not the issue though we're discussing. Bringing up 'clerics having to use suboptimal weapons' is kinda laughable, Druid weapons are very limited in IWD, while cleeics have accessmto many of he best guaranteed drops/purchases.
It doesn't matter if the K C is vulnerablish earliar, as the Druid can tank better always, unless the Cleric uses only DR gear. Unless you have an AI improving mod, enemies will swarm your tank, and the K C will follow up and clear out enemies faster. This isn't really an opinion issue, so I'm not going to argue facts vs opinions. Its unproductive and goes nowhere but ugly.
What exactly is a suboptimal Cleric weapon and what does the Cleric being a Berserker or Kensai have to do with those choices?
Because the Morning Star of Defense is 2D4+4, so what exactly is better than that? 1D6+5? lol
Also facts? Enemies will switch targets if they can't reach their intended target or another targert is hitting them while close by. Fact, a Berserker/Cleric and Kensai/Druid can just wade into battle at the same time. Fact, the Scimitar with -+1 APR comes with a Scimitar +4 and these are guaranteed drops.
Conlan sells a Scimitar+3. Also a fact. There's a guaranteed Scimitar+3 in Chapter 5 as well.
These are facts. Not whatever nonsense about Clerics using suboptimal weapons being laughable. Or being always better off using a defensive charactet as a defensive specialist. Thaf's opinion unless you can actually put some numbers to those claims.
You want to talk about facts? How about backing up everything you've said so far with real numbsrs.
For a simple, good from the start to the end, four man MC party I'd go with:
F/C F/D F/T F/M
No downtime and no weaknesses but also no uber powergaming.
When playing IWDEE I tend to use ranged alot in the first chapters then slowly progress more and more into pure melee. All of these characters can use pretty much any weapon and armor you find, without cheesing out on random loot tables. Just have your chars get proficiency in one ranged and specialized in a couple of different melee weapons and you are good to go.
You can combine single and multi classes to your heart's content, but as stated above several times, you need divine, arcane, thievery and some brute force. Just combine the four and you will easily beat the game on insane difficulty. You can play the four as singleclasses even without a fighter and still beat the game, so don't spend too much time pondering over "the best" classes, kensai->cleric vs berzerker->cleric etc. The difference is negligable, you'll be strong enough anyways since the game is fairly easy.
I think you mentioned you're planning to play on insane. If so, the XP bonus makes the Berserker 7 -> Cleric dual very powerful. I would recommend that.
2d4+4 = 5+4, so d6+5 is worse damage average. No special abilities on that club either, tons of great cleric weapons have great special abilities, ie elemental damage, or resistances. A scimitar +3 isn't as good as the Giving Star, which is a mid-range morningstar, and that is also sold by Conlan. Maybe a bad example on your part?? What in gods name are you trying to argue, that Druids have competetitive weapons?? Cleric thieves are the only ones more screwed over imho, seeing as mages get some darn nice goodies.
You are forgetting that Clerics can and will buff their strength. Druids hogging strength boosting gear can hit 20 str I think, Clerics can max it out iirc. Thats 6 more damage per hit, and Clerics have clearly better weapons.
As I said before, you're arguing your opinion. Nobody said Kensai Druid isn't viable or Rp-wise interesting, simply that if you bring a kensai cleric, the druid's defensive edge that everyone agrees on KINDA suggests using the druid as the tank. A Berserker Druid loses a +1 vs a kensai, while Kensai restricts gear he will benefit from, ie a helm, there are useful ones in IWD afterall. Berserker also gives the Druid immunities he won't otherwise be getting early on, when you really want them.
Unless you've got something thay counters the huge damage differential of the strength buffs, I don't intend to continue this.
Do you really want to locate traps but not disarm them? ... I mean, sometimes that works. And in some cases you can either take the damage or cast protection spells before triggering a trap ... but as somebody who breaks all records with regard to asking what party to create, I would not forget a character with thieving abilities. A Cleric/Thief multi-class is doable and popular. It can even be a gnome. If dual-class, it must be a human, and you would need to decide when to turn the thief into a cleric as to be useful when you find the first traps.
And a Fighter/Illu (must be a multi-class gnome) in addition to a Sorcerer and the Avenger's extra arcane spells? I'd rather go with a plain Berserker wielding an axe and later throwing the returning axe which is a safe find for everyone.
Also, ... I'd rather start playing with an own choice of a party ... and have fun ... and find out whether I could think of anything that would be more fun or would work better.
You mean like the Morning Star of Defense which gives 20% Slashing and Piercing Resistance? Fact
A scimitar +3 isn't as good as the Giving Star, which is a mid-range morningstar, and that is also sold by Conlan.
You mean something with 10% chance of curing wounds? Why would a Druid need a Scimitar with an ability like that for? Iron Skin means they don't take damage.
And what exactly will a Cleric with DUHM and Righteous Magic need with +1 STR?
Maybe a bad example on your part??
More like a poor application of logic on yours
What in gods name are you trying to argue, that Druids have competetitive weapons??
Right a +4 Scimitar and another Scimitar that gives +1APR that a player will always get is somehow not competitive.
You are forgetting that Clerics can and will buff their strength.
And what exactly does the Cleric being a Kensai have to do with this?
Druids hogging strength boosting gear can hit 20 str I think,
And this matters how?
Clerics can max it out iirc. Thats 6 more damage per hit,
A Berserker/Cleric and Kensai/Cleric have the same number of attacks. Fact
and Clerics have clearly better weapons.
Which a Berserker/Cleric can wield. Fact
As I said before, you're arguing your opinion. Nobody said Kensai Druid isn't viable or Rp-wise interesting, simply that if you bring a kensai cleric, the druid's defensive edge that everyone agrees on KINDA suggests using the druid as the tank.
Wrong.
It suggests that a Kensai/Druid and a Berserker/Cleric can both sit in the front line and not care which of them is getting hit
A Berserker Druid loses a +1 vs a kensai, while Kensai restricts gear he will benefit from, ie a helm, there are useful ones in IWD afterall. Berserker also gives the Druid immunities he won't otherwise be getting early on, when you really want them.
Want against what? Hard facts please.
Unless you've got something thay counters the huge damage differential of the strength buffs, I don't intend to continue this.
Last I checked a Berserker/Cleric can still cast DUHM and Righteous Magic. Fact
Sorcerer ... is the one to cast spells ... not throw stones at enemies and fail doing that. You can give the sorcerer a sling, ... sure ..., but there are better enchanted weapons to equip for bonus effects, extra spell slots, ...
Avenger ... same here. You can skill spears, two-handed, ... or a club (there's a +5 club to find) ... but think about it. An Avenger without any Fighter class abilities is a magic user and not a good fighter. Poor armor ... protection spells only later ... Avenger is better for casting spells that help your party, your allies and kill your enemies.
Fighter/Illu Dual wield, Axe and Longsword?
As a multi-class character? I wouldn't do that.
Dual-wielding is a matter of taste anyway. You need to look up the table in the manual, so you understand whether or how many points to invest into the two-weapons skill. Even with a real warrior, many players only learn two points and use an off-hand weapon for some bonus while wearing the primary weapon in the main-hand.
Ask yourself, why do you want a Fi/Illu in your party?
A Berserker 3 -> Mage would be much more fun in a small party like you plan to play with.
berserker 7 cleric Dual wield, mace, what else?
Same response about dual-wielding here. You need a good idea about how to use main-hand and off-hand. Warhammer and Flail/Morningstar are a safe choice in the game. Many to find. But remember, lots of weapons are randomly placed in the dungeons.
For a multi, first 4 pips Sword and Shield, Morning Stars/Flails or War Hammer (for Conlan's War Hammer)
Then Long Swords, Dual Wield for the Long Sword of Action
For the dual, dual + Long Sword, 3rd Long Sword@Berserker 3, 4th Long Sword@Mage 6, 5th Long Sword@Mage12
Dual cleric, Morning Stars/Flails + Dual, 3rd Morning Stars/Flails@Berserker 3, 4th MS/F@B6, Sling and whatever for Clerics levels. 5th MS/F@Cleric8. After that it doesn't matter.
Comments
Obviously, dualing to Druidnis incredibly stat intensive, you need 15 str min to dual from fighter, and must have 17 wis and cha to dualmto Druid, on top of being True Neutral. A kensai might need more dex/cons than an armoured berserker, being ultra squishy, so another point in favour of doing a berserker druid and kensai cleric.
Druid is nice to dual to at 7th lvl I think, especially in a party with multiple duals, as they get their stuff back superfast.
Why is a Blade better than a Bard or any other kit of it especially in a small party?Or is a Fighter /Mage better?
Blades make a very useful fighter/mage hybrid, more defensively capable than a FM dual (but losing GM hurts, and no 9th lvl spells), and is probably better overall than FM multi in IWD, though an IF gnome has a big edge. Your biggest weakness btw is having 18 str. The Strength spell helps, but you will likely need to find a bigger boost later or just accept being the unhittable tank.
Defensively these are inferior to Iron Skins
The Fighter/Mage is definitely better. One of the restrictions was that a Bard was needed, which is the only reason I suggested the Blade.
FM multi is kinda crap in IWD. No GM, no HLA, later access to mage spells than a dual, way worse caster level than a Bard, and the highest ACs aren't terribly high. Multis as a rule are much worse in IWD than BG, except for 3 ways. Going FI gnome is fine, as the saves are pretty handy once in awhile, and 'dat helm, but duals are really, really solid in IWD.
Also a Kensai/Druid will be able to get to the front line much earlier, without risking an enemy switching targets, which they do if another target is close enough, than the Kensai/Cleric thanks to Iron Skin and Bark Skin.
What exactly do dual F>M's have to do with a F/M and Blade comparison?
And a Blade has no GM, no specialization, no Fighter bonus APR, spell access is fairly pointless as scrolls come slowly in IWD, caster level is also pointless for nearly anything that isn't a damage spell, buff spells will last long enough even with multiclass levels.
Besides, damage spells are something the Sorc should be doing anyway and they'll do it better since they have access to any spell as they level.
Defensive Spin's AC? Why would that matter? Shield + Stone Skin + Mirror Image is more than enough especially since the first run isn't HoF.
The Cleric CAN safely neglect str (down to 15 obviously) for his dual if he needs to, since he can buff it by spell to absurd levels with 2 spells. They can even wield the Giving Star early to boost str at times. Once the Cleric has a few levels, he can combine DR gear with AoF for solid protection if needed, and he WILL out damage the Druid in battle due to his high str score. Heck, he can have the Druid or a Mage cast an armouring spell too, so the druid getting Barkskin is an empty point.
I do agree Ironskins is a decent spell, which is why I said the Druid ought to be the tank, and go Berserker. He can dual earlier too that way, 7th lvl being reasonable for a berserker. You get 5 apr with Valiant iirc at 7th lvl, though Druids do not have great main weapons compared to clerics, which is another reason to go with defensive druid.
Relevant point too, if you want the Kensai to be worth bothering with, you need to dual no earlier than 9th, and quite possibly you'll want to go for 13th to give the option of not using a speed weapon, remember Righteous Wrath! We are talking a small party after all. That cleric will actually be a top tier hitter, while the Kensai Druid amounts to a decent attacker only. Dualing to Kensai at 9th nabs +1 to hit and damage vs a Berserker, and you lose some decent gear choices for it. Helms are nice, especially on a defensive fighter as you and I agree the Druid will end up being.
Edit: Incase you didn't notice, I did not recomend use of a Blade; I answered the question why choose Blade over Skald. Either way, Defensive Spin is an awesome defensive option, and will rather obviously make your MI and Stoneskins last longer. Btw smarty-pants, caster level has a pretty big effect on some spells, IE Mirror Image and Stoneskin. The fact that your Skull Trap will be more damaging than the Sorcerer's should also be self-explanatory. Anyways, I'm done arguing over something I did not even recommend with someone who seems to like arguing a bit too much.
So 18 STR, 18 DEX, 17 WIS, 17 CHA, 10 CON, 3 INT = 83. Which is very easy to roll and even enough to get high exceptional Strength (not that it matters much)
91 for 18 CON is also doable, but makes high exceptional Strength practically luck.
So I really don't see why this is a problem.
Also really level 9? It's +1 Damage. At best that's 20 Damage per round (and that's with 10 Critical Hits) Fairly irrelevant in Insane, and in HoF is just a cup in the bucket.
Also why does Righteous Wrath matter so much? It's simply a slightly stronger Haste spell and those two can't be stacked.
Why would a Druid require a Helm? They have Iron Skin. Why would they require armor when they have Barkskin. Damage reduction? That's what Iron Skin and Bark Skin are for. They simply do not get hit.
Clerics are the one getting hit, they're the ones who need damage reduction.
Why would Mirror Image and Stone Skin need to last longer? This is Insane, not HoF. Enemies die quickly. Also levels for Stone Skin? How long does it take to kill enemies? Stone Skin can be recast when it runs out.
Also Skull Trap dealing an extra few D6's of damage is pretty irrelevant when the Sorcerer can just cast another one thanks to having more casts per level.
A Fighter/Mage or Blade is there to deal damage with weapons, and the Fighter/Mage is better at that. Defensive Spin only matters if the party is so underpowered that killing enemies with regular non-HoF HP takes forever. Which a group with a Sorcerer and 3 Fighter spellcasters isn't.
My personal choice for simple yet exceptionally effective would be:
Dwarven Defender (Tank)
Halfling Fighter/Thief (Thief skills and ranged DPS)
Gnome Fighter/Illusionist (Ungodly beast of destruction, as any F/M is)
Half-orc Fighter/Cleric (Melee DPS and healer)
I'd still recommend Avenger rather than K->D for a 3 person party as it's more fun I think with a lot of variety in how you overcome different obstacles.
Repeat.
My experience was that many encounters could be overcome using different combinations of spells and forms with the Avenger filling different roles for different fights from tank to disabler to melee damage to spell damage.
As far as XP goes the xp curve of Druid makes it super easy to complete the 9/10 dual needing just 375k xp. On the flip side, a B->C dual at 7 needs just 174k xp compared to 700k for the 9/10 K->C.
Another important distinction is that the K->D can become an effective tank as soon as it hits level 7 Druid alongside the B->C who can also tank in heavy armour. In contrast a K->C will be quite vulnerable until higher level when important items become available and AoF gets the necessary caster levels. Finally, a K->C might need to use a defender weapon more often rather than the optimal Stunner/Fast Flail combination eroding any damage advantage that it has over the berserker variant.
As an addendum I'll add that a multi or dual Druid should still be restricted to Druid armour so I feel good about a K->D who relies on his own barkskin spell rather than a B->D in layers of metal armour (in direct contravention of the characters faith and beliefs).
Key to having fun with druids in general is to use their unique spells as often as possible. If neglecting spells like Smashing Wave or Wall of Moonlight, playing a small party will get even more repetitive.
It doesn't matter if the K C is vulnerablish earliar, as the Druid can tank better always, unless the Cleric uses only DR gear. Unless you have an AI improving mod, enemies will swarm your tank, and the K C will follow up and clear out enemies faster. This isn't really an opinion issue, so I'm not going to argue facts vs opinions. Its unproductive and goes nowhere but ugly.
Because the Morning Star of Defense is 2D4+4, so what exactly is better than that? 1D6+5? lol
Also facts? Enemies will switch targets if they can't reach their intended target or another targert is hitting them while close by. Fact, a Berserker/Cleric and Kensai/Druid can just wade into battle at the same time. Fact, the Scimitar with -+1 APR comes with a Scimitar +4 and these are guaranteed drops.
Conlan sells a Scimitar+3. Also a fact. There's a guaranteed Scimitar+3 in Chapter 5 as well.
These are facts. Not whatever nonsense about Clerics using suboptimal weapons being laughable. Or being always better off using a defensive charactet as a defensive specialist. Thaf's opinion unless you can actually put some numbers to those claims.
You want to talk about facts? How about backing up everything you've said so far with real numbsrs.
F/C
F/D
F/T
F/M
No downtime and no weaknesses but also no uber powergaming.
When playing IWDEE I tend to use ranged alot in the first chapters then slowly progress more and more into pure melee. All of these characters can use pretty much any weapon and armor you find, without cheesing out on random loot tables. Just have your chars get proficiency in one ranged and specialized in a couple of different melee weapons and you are good to go.
You can combine single and multi classes to your heart's content, but as stated above several times, you need divine, arcane, thievery and some brute force. Just combine the four and you will easily beat the game on insane difficulty. You can play the four as singleclasses even without a fighter and still beat the game, so don't spend too much time pondering over "the best" classes, kensai->cleric vs berzerker->cleric etc. The difference is negligable, you'll be strong enough anyways since the game is fairly easy.
Bonus if only single classes...
What do you think about:
Sorcerer
Avenger
Fighter/Illu
Some cleric dual or multi
???
Sorcerer
Avenger
Fighter/Illu
Some cleric dual or multi
then go with that.
You are forgetting that Clerics can and will buff their strength. Druids hogging strength boosting gear can hit 20 str I think, Clerics can max it out iirc. Thats 6 more damage per hit, and Clerics have clearly better weapons.
As I said before, you're arguing your opinion. Nobody said Kensai Druid isn't viable or Rp-wise interesting, simply that if you bring a kensai cleric, the druid's defensive edge that everyone agrees on KINDA suggests using the druid as the tank. A Berserker Druid loses a +1 vs a kensai, while Kensai restricts gear he will benefit from, ie a helm, there are useful ones in IWD afterall. Berserker also gives the Druid immunities he won't otherwise be getting early on, when you really want them.
Unless you've got something thay counters the huge damage differential of the strength buffs, I don't intend to continue this.
Do you really want to locate traps but not disarm them? ... I mean, sometimes that works. And in some cases you can either take the damage or cast protection spells before triggering a trap ... but as somebody who breaks all records with regard to asking what party to create, I would not forget a character with thieving abilities. A Cleric/Thief multi-class is doable and popular. It can even be a gnome. If dual-class, it must be a human, and you would need to decide when to turn the thief into a cleric as to be useful when you find the first traps.
And a Fighter/Illu (must be a multi-class gnome) in addition to a Sorcerer and the Avenger's extra arcane spells? I'd rather go with a plain Berserker wielding an axe and later throwing the returning axe which is a safe find for everyone.
Also, ... I'd rather start playing with an own choice of a party ... and have fun ... and find out whether I could think of anything that would be more fun or would work better.
Which proficiencies would you give my small group then?
Sorcerer I guess slings?
Avenger Slings too what else?
Fighter/Illu Dual wield, Axe and Longsword?
berserker 7 cleric Dual wield, mace, what else?
And what exactly will a Cleric with DUHM and Righteous Magic need with +1 STR? More like a poor application of logic on yours Right a +4 Scimitar and another Scimitar that gives +1APR that a player will always get is somehow not competitive. And what exactly does the Cleric being a Kensai have to do with this? And this matters how? A Berserker/Cleric and Kensai/Cleric have the same number of attacks. Fact Which a Berserker/Cleric can wield. Fact Wrong.
It suggests that a Kensai/Druid and a Berserker/Cleric can both sit in the front line and not care which of them is getting hit Want against what? Hard facts please. Last I checked a Berserker/Cleric can still cast DUHM and Righteous Magic. Fact
Avenger ... same here. You can skill spears, two-handed, ... or a club (there's a +5 club to find) ... but think about it. An Avenger without any Fighter class abilities is a magic user and not a good fighter. Poor armor ... protection spells only later ... Avenger is better for casting spells that help your party, your allies and kill your enemies. As a multi-class character? I wouldn't do that.
Dual-wielding is a matter of taste anyway. You need to look up the table in the manual, so you understand whether or how many points to invest into the two-weapons skill. Even with a real warrior, many players only learn two points and use an off-hand weapon for some bonus while wearing the primary weapon in the main-hand.
As whether to create a Fi/Illu at all ... an Illusionist cannot learn Necromancy and Abjuration spells ... so you need to be familiar with that and how to play an illusionist:
http://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/41493/wizard-spell-lists-icewind-dale-enhanced-edition#latest
Ask yourself, why do you want a Fi/Illu in your party?
A Berserker 3 -> Mage would be much more fun in a small party like you plan to play with. Same response about dual-wielding here. You need a good idea about how to use main-hand and off-hand. Warhammer and Flail/Morningstar are a safe choice in the game. Many to find. But remember, lots of weapons are randomly placed in the dungeons.
So what weapon(s) would you use then for a F/ILLLU or Bers 3 /Mage?
And for the berserker 7 cleric?
Then Long Swords, Dual Wield for the Long Sword of Action
For the dual, dual + Long Sword, 3rd Long Sword@Berserker 3, 4th Long Sword@Mage 6, 5th Long Sword@Mage12
Dual cleric, Morning Stars/Flails + Dual, 3rd Morning Stars/Flails@Berserker 3, 4th MS/F@B6, Sling and whatever for Clerics levels. 5th MS/F@Cleric8. After that it doesn't matter.