Is one Pip on TWF worth?

Vallmyr

So I noticed single class rogues (Thieves/Bards) can put one point in dual wielding. Is it even worth?

DreadKhan

Not unless you have access to a GARGANTUAN THAC0 buff, because rogues have awful THAC0 to begin with.

Obvious such buff is UAI with Tenser's Transformation scroll.

elminster

I would say no.

Jarrakul

It's probably worth it if you use a speed offhand. Otherwise no.

semiticgoddess

Tenser's Transformation cast from a scroll gives a 3-point boost to THAC0: the thief's base THAC0 will be at 10 when he or she gets UAI (past level 22) and therefore access to scrolls; the scroll is cast at level 10 by default, which sets THAC0 to 9 and then decreases it by a further 2. Another potential THAC0 boost might come from a friendly bard song.

I'd say the point could be worth it. Sure, thieves have poor THAC0, but then, dual-wielding is still superior to many of the alternatives, despite the THAC0 penalties. With a STR belt or spell, dual-wielding with a speed weapon can give better damage output than the Tuigan Bow. And it's not like you have much better to do with your off hand: thieves can't use shields bigger than bucklers, and there is a shortage of good bucklers in BG2.

A dual-wielding thief might not be great, but it's still marginally better than a thief with only one melee weapon. And it's not like a thief needs many proficiency points elsewhere: you'll certainly want to have a pip in short bow or crossbow, and a backstabbing weapon if you're not a Swashbuckler (which is the assumption behind this thread), but other than that, your thief won't need to switch weapons much unless they need weapon-based immunities (like Adjatha the Drinker for immunity to Domination).

Southpaw

I would not (and I played all sorts of Thieves. In a party or solo).

Thieves' THAC0 sucks as it is and they need all the help they can get. Single-weapon fighting is usually better as it allows you to crit on 19 and 20, thus upping your crit % from 5 - 10% (doubling the chances) - which is better for back-stabbing Thieves.
Also, when dual-wielding - you can't use a bow, or throwing daggers, which is preferred range weapon option for non-Swashbucklers.

deltago

Cleric/thieves it can be worth it since a casting of bless and aid get your main AB back to single weapon use. It all depends on what weapon you have in the off hand. Defender of Easthaven is obvious, Mauler's Arm or Crom Faeyr for a STR boost maybe.

Besides that, nope.

jesterdesu

I prefer double crit chance and higher thac0. Bows/ traps and darts (particularly if assassin) are the best ways to deal with multiple enemies.

bob_veng

for a high level cleric, yes

DreadKhan

I tried a dual wielding pure assassin in vanilla, where he could have continuous 5 apr... he couldn't hit mooks reliably, even hogging gear. Tensers is enough to make it useful though, and you can get unhasted 4.5 apr. Since none of the NPC casters really need TT, you could probably hog the scrolls for a thief PC for hard battles.

I agree cleric buffs can also make it work. A Helm or Lathander kit makes it an interesting choice, and solid with buffs.

lroumen

Bg1. Probably not.
Bg2. Adjatha the drinker, arbane's short sword. For sure.

Don't forget that invisibility is a thac0 bonus of 4. You can buff with a strength enhancing spell and thac0 spells. Thieves hit just fine.

jesterdesu

lroumen said:

Bg1. Probably not.
Bg2. Adjatha the drinker, arbane's short sword. For sure.

Don't forget that invisibility is a thac0 bonus of 4. You can buff with a strength enhancing spell and thac0 spells. Thieves hit just fine.

What difference do either of those weapons make?

Apart from charname's one use a day of dohm, the only strength spells which will be any good are only available to thief/clerics.

The only direct thac0 improving spell I'm aware of is tensers.

The thac0 from invisibility only works on the attack which breaks invisibility. It's designed to enable backstabs, not manfighting.

Unless swashbuckler they really don't... Not in mid to late soa onwards. They can still backstab sometimes but they're awful in melee against just about all semi dangerous enemies.

Jarrakul

I dunno, I used Hexxat as a melee fighter throughout BG2 and TOB, and she did fine. Her lack of hit points was a much greater concern than her lack of THAC0.

There are also a decent number of direct THAC0 improving spells. Bless, Chant, Prayer, and I'm pretty sure Improved Invisibility gives the +4 to hit for its entire duration.

DreadKhan

That +4 is still not very good odds for a DWing pure thief, though its enough to make misses extremely rare on BSs.

As has been noted, thieves have very poor THAC0s, marginally better than a mage.

lroumen

Dual wield on thieves (swashbuckler exempt) is mostly useful for secondary effects and for immunities to the most prominent disablers... Adjatha and arbane help in that regard.

I'm not certain why you would want to use a thief as a fighter instead of using the utility the class brings. If you want a melee thief then play fighter/thief or swashbuckler. Otherwise use ranged or multiple backstabs per battle or accept that thieves hit less well.

semiticgoddess

@jesterdesu: Adjatha the Drinker gives immunity to charm and domination spells. Arbane's Sword gives immunity to web, hold person, paralysis, entangle, grease, and also stun (though the immunity to stun may not apply in all installs). That's why those two weapons matter. Thieves can't use many other items that give immunities: Shield of Harmony, Helm of Charm Protection, Lilarcor, etc. And the Ring of Free Action is only available after Spellhold.

It's true that the +4 THAC0 bonus when hidden vanishes after one attack, but if you're backstabbing (which any thief besides a swashbuckler should be), then you only need the bonus for that one attack. @Iroumen's point is valid. Dual-wielding offers defensive advantages: you can use Namarra in your main hand for backstabbing, while still having Arbane's Sword in the off hand for immunities, and the +4 THAC0 bonus will mitigate your dual-wielding THAC0 penalties. Web would be a good example: the dual-wielding thief with Arbane's Sword is immune to its effects, and gets automatic hits on any webbed enemies.

It's a narrow example, but I'd say TWF opens up opportunities that are about as valuable as the alternatives. TWF won't make a thief really great, but then, this is a thief we're talking about--it won't excel in combat either way.

DreadKhan

In the case of Web though you don't need any ranks, Edwin can whack away with DWing Staffmaces as well as a thief with 2 non-speed weapons.

DWing Edwin is much more entertaining btw.

jesterdesu

semiticgod said:

@jesterdesu: Adjatha the Drinker gives immunity to charm and domination spells. Arbane's Sword gives immunity to web, hold person, paralysis, entangle, grease, and also stun (though the immunity to stun may not apply in all installs). That's why those two weapons matter. Thieves can't use many other items that give immunities: Shield of Harmony, Helm of Charm Protection, Lilarcor, etc. And the Ring of Free Action is only available after Spellhold.

It's true that the +4 THAC0 bonus when hidden vanishes after one attack, but if you're backstabbing (which any thief besides a swashbuckler should be), then you only need the bonus for that one attack. @Iroumen's point is valid. Dual-wielding offers defensive advantages: you can use Namarra in your main hand for backstabbing, while still having Arbane's Sword in the off hand for immunities, and the +4 THAC0 bonus will mitigate your dual-wielding THAC0 penalties. Web would be a good example: the dual-wielding thief with Arbane's Sword is immune to its effects, and gets automatic hits on any webbed enemies.

It's a narrow example, but I'd say TWF opens up opportunities that are about as valuable as the alternatives. TWF won't make a thief really great, but then, this is a thief we're talking about--it won't excel in combat either way.

Soooo because twf presents some niche tactics it is as valuable as double crit chance at full thaco whilst having -2 ac, or sitting at the back with a shortbow? Sorry, NO!

jesterdesu

I'm being subjective but so was the question. Each to their own though...

Jarrakul

Double crit chance is basically a less powerful version of +1 to hit (since many creatures are immune to it). An extra attack is *always* at least as good for non-backstabs (even if that attack only hits on 20s), and it's just as good for backstabs in more than 95% of cases (only 5% of attacks will be converted to crits because of OWF, and many of those will be negated by helmets). The real comparison is between the -2 to hit from TWF (and the 95% of off-hand attacks that aren't 20s), vs. the +1 AC from 1 point in OWF. That's not a clear choice to me, until you factor in the immunities and extra attacks certain off-hands grant. At which point TWF seems like a pretty clear victor.

semiticgoddess

On an objective note, TWF will do just as much damage as SWF if the thief has a 50% chance of landing a hit. I've done the math.

Dual-wielding with one point in TWF gives an average -4 penalty between the two attacks. At what point would the increase in APR have a greater effect than the decrease in THAC0?

Base hit chance: (20-x)/20
Dual-wielding hit chance: (20-x+4)/20
If x=11, then:
Base hit chance: (20-11)/20=0.45
Dual-wielding hit chance: (20-15)/20=0.25

If your average damage per hit is, say, 10, then your damage per round with one weapon is 0.45*10=4.5. Your damage per round with two weapons is 0.25*10*2=5.0. If you're using one weapon, plus a point in SWF, then you get a 5% increase in damage, which means one weapon does 0.50*10=5.0 damage on average per round. So TWF and SWF have equal damage values, ceteris paribus, if you hit an enemy 50% of the time. If your hit chance is worse, then SWF does more damage. If your hit chance is better than 50%, then dual-wielding does more damage.

How often is TWF stronger than SWF? It all depends on your THAC0 and the enemy--some thieves will benefit more from TWF, others will benefit more from SWF, some may be served by having pips in both, and some may be served by having pips in neither.

If the thief can normally land a hit on a roll of 11 or higher, then dual-wielding will give a 5% increase in average damage per round, same as a single point in SWF. What then is the difference between the two?

SWF give an AC boost, up to +2. TWF can give other passive benefits:

Daystar: +2 to hit and damage vs. evil critters
Equalizer: +0 to +3 to hit and damage vs. enemies depending on alignment
Angurvadal: 22 STR
Bone Club: +1 to hit and damage vs. undead
Malakar: +2 to AC vs. slashing
Sword of Balduran: 10% magic resistance
Belm/Kundane/SCT/STD: +1 to APR
Adjatha the Drinker: immunity to charm
Arbane's Sword: Free Action, minus immunity to slow
After UAI, you might also use the Purifer, Crom Faeyr, or another fighter-only weapon.

Whenever somebody says something isn't useful, I feel compelled to find out a use for it. I think a lot of people miss out on these details and opportunities simply because people assume they aren't there, or assume they aren't worth it. Some of these things are worth it, even from a strictly damage-based perspective--not just niche uses. I've said it before: if you think something is useful, you're probably right. If you think something is useless, you're probably wrong. You can find opportunities if you look for them. You won't find them if you don't look.

TWF, SWF, and ranged weapons are all useful for thieves, and worth a pip, depending on your thief and the situations you're facing.

Blackraven

For me it mostly depends on when you want to invest the proficiency pip in TWF. In BG1 and roughly the first two chapters of SoA you'll probably get more mileage out of SWS + one-handed weapon, or THWS + staves, for a thief that isn't a Swashbuckler or a Cleric or Fighter multi because you'll be backstabbing rather than meleeing most of the time.
But by the end of BG1 you already have four weapon pips, the fifth follows relatively early in BG2. So even in early BG2 you can easily go both ways, for example with short bows plus scimitars or longswords at level 1, SWS at level 4, e.g. clubs at level 8, and TWF at level 12.

Jarrakul

@semiticgod, I'm not sure it makes sense to just average the penalty that way. Let's do some more detailed math and see what happens.

Terms:
d = damage per hit
x = base number needed to hit (before style modifiers)
s = style modifiers
c = expected number of crits/autohits per 20 attacks
x' = expected number of hits per 20 attacks, not counting crits (21+s-c-x)
y = crit multiplier (2 for normal enemies, 1 for crit-immune enemies)
D = expected damage per 20 attacks (d*(x'+yc))

OWF:
c = 2
s = 0
x' = 21+0-2-x = 19-x
Crit-vulnerable enemies
D = d*(19 + 2c - x) = d*(23-x)
Crit-invulnerable enemies
D = d*(19 + c -x) = d*(21-x)

TWF:
On-hand
c = 1
s = -2
x' = 21-2-1-x =18-x
D1 = d*(18 + yc - x)
Off-hand
c = 1
s = -6
x' = 21-6-1-x = 14 -x
D2 = d*(14 + yc - x)
Totals:
Crit-vulnerable enemies
D = D1 + D2 = d*(32 + 4 - 2x) = d*(36 - 2x)
Crit-invulnerable enemies
D = D1 + D2 = d*(32 + 2 - 2x) = d*(34 - 2x)

So, to figure out which does more damage when, we evaluate two inequalities, depending on whether the enemy is crit immune.

Crit-vulnerable:
OWF <?> TWF
d*(23-x) <?> d*(36-2x)
23-x <?> 36-2x
-x <?> 13-2x
0 <?> 13-x

So, when you need a 13 to hit before TWF penalties, the two styles are equal. Better accuracy makes TWF better, while worse accuracy made OWF better.

Crit-invulnerable:
OWF <?> TWF
d*(21-x) <?> d*(34-2x)
21-x <?> 34-2x
-x <?> 13 -2x
0 <?> 13-x

Again, the pivotal point is 13. This is because the increased number of expected crits between OWF and TWF is actually exactly the game. They're distributed differently, of course (OWF gives crits on more rounds, but TWF sometimes gives two crits on one round), but they have the same expected rate.

Of course, if your off-hand does less damage than your on-hand, the numbers swing slightly towards OWF. If you use a speed weapon in your off-hand, the number swing dramatically towards TWF. And of course we haven't considered the effect of the AC bonus from OWF.

lroumen

jesterdesu said:

Soooo because twf presents some niche tactics it is as valuable as double crit chance at full thaco whilst having -2 ac, or sitting at the back with a shortbow? Sorry, NO!

it is worthwhile to note that noone said it was better than single weapon style. We just indicated that using certain weapons in the off hand works just fine.

jesterdesu

lroumen said:

jesterdesu said:

Soooo because twf presents some niche tactics it is as valuable as double crit chance at full thaco whilst having -2 ac, or sitting at the back with a shortbow? Sorry, NO!

it is worthwhile to note that noone said it was better than single weapon style. We just indicated that using certain weapons in the off hand works just fine.

I know, but the topic title implies we're making that (and other) comparison/s.

Always nice to see people going into the figures as much as this and I can't argue that twf doesn't have it's uses... Is it worth it? I don't think so as it deviates from the characters main strengths and a fighter/thief or swashy would do it so much better.

Still, my hat off to some of the inventive uses suggested here. Fyi, was writing my last comment from work so if I seem like an asshole there it's probably because I was at that moment...

lroumen

No problems.
I interpreted the op differently