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76-point Party?

NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
I'm looking to create a party in the original Icewind Dale (including both expansions), with Ability Scores based on a point-buy system. I am going to play through on normal or hard first and am wondering if there's any consensus on what a balanced pool of points for those difficulties might look like.

I was thinking of imposing a 76-point limit per character, but this is looking very tight on certain classes. I will be maximising HP and won't be imposing any personal limits on saving and loading games. This will be my first playthough of Icewind Dale, although I have played through the Baldur's Gate games several times, over a decade ago.

After reading through several FAQ's, I'm still deciding on party composition.

As an example, this is the stat spread I came up with for a Human Paladin:

STR: 18 (91)*
DEX: 7
CON: 18
INT: 3
WIS: 13
CHA: 17

* I modified this through Dale Keeper, allowing myself to set the exceptional value.

Is there any generally agreed upon fair points distrubution system according to difficulty level?
Post edited by Nitesco on
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Comments

  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    edited May 2015
    error
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    edited May 2015
    Nitesco said:

    Still getting used to these forums, so I'm not exactly sure how to add follow-up posts to my thread without quoting myself.

    I am thinking of including a Bard, but this has been one of the most difficult to limit to 76 points.

    Going with Half-Elf for the racial bonuses to Lore and Pick Pocketing.

    STR: 14
    DEX: 12
    CON: 7
    INT: 18
    WIS: 10
    CHA: 15

    I know CON isn't a dump stat, so I could take points from STR to raise it, except that even with +4 items it would be outside the range of the next HP modifier.
    Post edited by Nitesco on
  • MerinaMerina Member Posts: 303
    It doesn't make sense in my point of view. What you're doing doesn't look consequent.

    INT 3 = illiterate + you cannot cast from scrolls.

    DEX 7 = it hurts. A Paladin in my book is a competent fighter. With only DEX 7, you will get hit a lot even if wearing the best heavy armor you can find. A DEX 7 fighter is clumsy at best. :wink:

    STR 18/91 = why so high strength? Why not live with STR 14 or 15 instead?

    CON 18 = why so much? why not CON 16 as the absolute maximum?
  • wubblewubble Member Posts: 3,156
    Merina said:


    DEX 7 = it hurts. A Paladin in my book is a competent fighter. With only DEX 7, you will get hit a lot even if wearing the best heavy armor you can find. A DEX 7 fighter is clumsy at best. :wink:

    Enemies in IWD hit hard too.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    edited May 2015
    Merina said:

    It doesn't make sense in my point of view. What you're doing doesn't look consequent.

    INT 3 = illiterate + you cannot cast from scrolls.

    DEX 7 = it hurts. A Paladin in my book is a competent fighter. With only DEX 7, you will get hit a lot even if wearing the best heavy armor you can find. A DEX 7 fighter is clumsy at best. :wink:

    STR 18/91 = why so high strength? Why not live with STR 14 or 15 instead?

    CON 18 = why so much? why not CON 16 as the absolute maximum?

    Will a Paladin be casting from scrolls a lot? (Is an INT of 9 the requirement for scroll casting?)

    If there are enough other buffs for to-hit and damage, I guess I could drop STR to 14.

    I thought max CON would be important, but as I am maximising HP, perhaps not.

    Do you think that a 76-point spread is okay?
    Post edited by Nitesco on
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    wubble said:

    Merina said:


    DEX 7 = it hurts. A Paladin in my book is a competent fighter. With only DEX 7, you will get hit a lot even if wearing the best heavy armor you can find. A DEX 7 fighter is clumsy at best. :wink:

    Enemies in IWD hit hard too.
    The difference between DEX 7 and DEX 18 is -4 AC and 11 build points. Does maximum DEX bonus apply to armor in Icewind Dale?
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Dump WIS and CHA. CON can be 10, DEX is more important. INT can be either 10 or 14 for Mages and 10 for Bards. Or even lower. Mages need 18 for 9th level spells and Bards need 14 for 7th level spells. Don't forget you can always drink Genius potions (+4 INT) for scribing, so dump at intervals of 4. Full dump other classes, scrolls usage is pretty pointless.

    STR at 18 for Fighter classes.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    I've done an average joe run with 63 points on every char. 76 is no problem.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36

    Dump WIS and CHA. CON can be 10, DEX is more important. INT can be either 10 or 14 for Mages and 10 for Bards. Or even lower. Mages need 18 for 9th level spells and Bards need 14 for 7th level spells. Don't forget you can always drink Genius potions (+4 INT) for scribing, so dump at intervals of 4. Full dump other classes, scrolls usage is pretty pointless.

    STR at 18 for Fighter classes.

    Thanks for the advice, I will have to do some research on Ability raising potions.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    Having Googled potions of Genius, is one required to carry a supply of them and keep them running indefinately in order to be able to cast 9th level Mage spells with INT 14?
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    edited May 2015
    Nope, just need to have the required INT for scribing. Once spells are in your spellbook it doesn't matter how much INT a character has when casting them.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36

    Nope, just need to have the required INT for scribing. Once spells are in your spellbook it doesn't matter how much INT a character has when casting them.

    Well that changes everything. Thanks for the information.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    What is the best level to dual class from Thief to Mage?

    At Thief 7 I can get 110% Find Traps and 70% Stealth, is that enough for end-game?

    I have also seen people talking about adding Weapon Proficiency points beyond Specialised once a character has Dual Classed over from Fighter to another class, but according to my experiments these don't stack.

    Is this a feature of EE or am I missing something?
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    If you put points before the Fighter class reactivates then it won't stack.

    Other than the pips a character gets at level 1, you can save proficiency points by not leveling the character up until they have enough XP to reactivate Fighter.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited June 2015
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2015
    Nitesco said:

    What is the best level to dual class from Thief to Mage?

    At Thief 7 I can get 110% Find Traps and 70% Stealth, is that enough for end-game?

    I wouldn't worry too much about putting towards Stealth since you end up getting access to the spell Invisibility pretty early on.

    You can pick up a scroll for it in AR3301. So basically in tomb 4 on this map.

    image


    No point in saving proficiency points in the original IWD (including its expansions) by not levelling up. Like how BG1 treated things once you dual class from a fighter or ranger in it you won't be able to ever advance a weapon choice again past proficiency. If you happened to have given yourself specialization or greater in a weapon before dual classing you'll of course get to benefit from them once your 2nd classes level is one level higher than your first class, but you'll never be able to increase them beyond that.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    Interesting, I testing this after reading Zyzzogeton's (thanks for the information) reply to my inquiry and found that I could indeed advance beyond Proficient by points gained subsequent to reactivating the Fighter levels in the original fully patched version of Icewind Dale.

    So to clarify, a character dual classing from Fighter 9 can only expect to see 5 ranks in a single weapon type and 2 ranks in a secondary weapon type?
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    Did you consider running a sorcerer? They have no required stats, and don't need potions from low int.

    Also, if you run sub-optimal str, the mage spell for strength buffing is pretty decent. There are SOME str boosting items, but not on par with a BG run.

    Another really interesting choice might be a halfer Barbarian... great saves for death and spell, +4 str and cons allow you to leave str at 15 and still be a steamroller vs a tough foe. Take 18 cons and dex, 15 str, and you have a great character. He'll get access to a great helm iirc, as a halfling.

    A Half-Orc Berserk only needs str, cons and dex, he's almost ridiculously good early.

    If you want a tougher challenge, use a Cleric/Ranger multi, or an Elven ranger. You'll end up awfully thinly spread as an elf ranger iirc, they have many high min stats. Paladins and Bards are obviously hard to manage on a low stat total.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    DreadKhan said:

    Did you consider running a sorcerer? They have no required stats, and don't need potions from low int.

    No sorcerers. Read OP's original post :)
    Nitesco said:

    Interesting, I testing this after reading Zyzzogeton's (thanks for the information) reply to my inquiry and found that I could indeed advance beyond Proficient by points gained subsequent to reactivating the Fighter levels in the original fully patched version of Icewind Dale.

    I just tested it now and I can't. You running any mods?
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    An elven ranger with 19 Dex, but horrible str and con. He shouldn't be in melee anyways, and will remain effective even if super squishy.
  • DreadKhanDreadKhan Member Posts: 3,857
    @elminster I assumed 'original' meant unmodded EE.

    Which would explain the issue of not being able to specialize/GM after dualing out of fighter.

    @Grum in the original IWD, Rangers are excellent in melee, they get a bonus apr with slashing weapons.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited June 2015
    @DreadKhan Yea I'm confused now on what was meant by "original" :)
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    Sorry, should have been clearer.
  • ZyzzogetonZyzzogeton Member Posts: 526
    Bards don't really need stats (other than INT, and that's been covered already). Since they're better off just standing there and singing or casting a spell.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    edited June 2015

    Bards don't really need stats (other than INT, and that's been covered already). Since they're better off just standing there and singing or casting a spell.

    I was about to post this earlier, but when I previewed it I lost the body of text.

    So far I've come up with the following party:

    Neutral Good Half-Elf Bard

    Str: 8
    Dex: 18
    Con: 7
    Int: 18
    Wis: 7
    Cha: 18

    x/Good Human Fighter 9>Cleric x 2

    Str: 18(00)
    Dex: 18
    Con: 16
    Int: 3
    Wis: 18
    Cha: 3

    x/Good Human Thief 7>Mage

    Str: 18
    Dex: 18
    Con: 16
    Int: 18
    Wis: 3
    Cha: 3

    Maybe a multi-class split involving Cleric for the 5th party slot. I might leave the 6th party slot open and play on Hard.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    As an alternative have you considered no adjusting your stats on your rolls? I made a party like this and it was really fun.

    My rules were:
    No adjusting stats (reroll as much as you like though)
    No reloading
    Insane difficulty
    No difficulty based xp bonus
    No difficulty based damage bonus
    No arcane except a wild mage
    No multiclasses
    No OP classes

    My party was:
    Halfling barbarian
    Cavalier
    Totemic Druid
    Dwarf Priest of Lathander
    Half Orc Bounty Hunter
    Human Wild Mage

    Without adjusting stats the party had really natural stats with only 1 or 2 good ones and barely any 18s (I rolled for ages to get the thiefs 19 strength).

    Some party members ended up with good point totals but they were mostly useless as the values fell within the range without any bonuses.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    If you are min maxing the fighter that bad (int3/cha3), make his portrait be a golem or a wright, depending on the magical specialty of the mage.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    I would consider bringing a skald for the awesome THAC0 and damage bonuses. It will add alot to any char you bring that doesn't have perfect fighter strenght. Combine with low point-demanding kits/classes like barbarian, berzerker, cleric and don't forget to have all chars with the same alignment for some juice clerical party buffs.

    Strenght of One + Skald song will make any party of average joes into a pretty fierce fighting crew.



  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Nitesco said:


    Neutral Good Half-Elf Bard

    Str: 8
    Dex: 18
    Con: 7
    Int: 18
    Wis: 7
    Cha: 18

    If you really want 20 charisma (which isn't really necessary) you've always got the friends spell. The charisma could be lowered to 15 frankly. Which would give a boost to your constitution.
  • NitescoNitesco Member Posts: 36
    elminster said:

    Nitesco said:


    Neutral Good Half-Elf Bard

    Str: 8
    Dex: 18
    Con: 7
    Int: 18
    Wis: 7
    Cha: 18

    If you really want 20 charisma (which isn't really necessary) you've always got the friends spell. The charisma could be lowered to 15 frankly. Which would give a boost to your constitution.
    Con 10 doesn't have benefits. Str 10 gains +20 weight allowance. 10 Wis negates -10 lore penalty.

    Regarding Weapon Proficiencies, is being able to gain ranks beyond Specialised (**), after reactivating Fighter from a DC, a bug or working as intended in the fully patched pre-EE Icewind Dale?

    Is storing ranks to spend later a bug or working as intended?
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