A duel between Kangaxx vs FireKraag vs Irenicus

TheWiSeFooL

I kind of wish you can see a battle between the three of them to see who would win.

Kangaxx vs Irenicus
FireKraag vs Irenicus
Kangaxx vs FireKraag

Place your bets peeps LOL.

Arunsun

Irenicus in slayer form is immune to imprisonment, guess it makes one of the fight an easy bet.
Firkraag is not immune to imprisonment as far as I know which makes the Kangaxx Firkraag fight an easy bet as well
As for the last one, I d bet on Irenicus. He is a stronger mage than Elminster, there is no way he cannot defeat a dragon

semiticgoddess

I believe Irenicus even in normal form is immune to Imprisonment thanks to his plot immunity. But he doesn't have a +5 weapon to use against Kangaxx, so it's a tie.

Assuming we're in vanilla, where Kangaxx's demi-lich form has no spells besides Imprisonment and one casting of Demi-lich Wail, it should play out like this:

Irenicus in slayer form, immune to Imprisonment and with a +5 weapon, kills Kangaxx.

Kangaxx imprisons Firkraag.

Firkraag kills Irenicus in normal form with his breath weapon.
Irenicus in slayer form, with his high regeneration, kills Firkraag.

If Irenicus is in normal form:
Kangaxx->Firkraag
Firkaag->Irenicus
Kangaxx=Irenicus

If Irenicus is in Slayer form:
Irenicus->Kangaxx->Firkraag.

elminster

Arunsun said:

He is a stronger mage than Elminster

Nope.

sarevok57

plus kangaxx is immune to all spells of 9th level and lower, in then end kangaxx will always win, kangaxx the demilich actually has a melee attack that can paralyze if he's lucky

Gallowglass

semiticgod said:

But he doesn't have a +5 weapon to use against Kangaxx, so it's a tie.

+4 is sufficient to hit Kangaxx, +5 is not essential. (I'm running EE, but IIRC this was also true in original BG2).

But which Irenicus are we talking about? The game (I'm talking about EE here) contains several different .cre files for Irenicus, representing various different times when he appears.

Most of the .cre files don't seem to be equipped with any obvious way of tackling Kangaxx ... but I see that one version of Irenicus is equipped with a Staff of the Magi, which can definitely hit Kangaxx. Also, another of the Irenicus .cre files has a couple of Mordenkainen's Sword spells memorised, which is +4 and therefore ought to work (although I can't recall ever testing that).

Blucher

Well, I'm sure Irenicus can make a quick stop to the Adventure Mart and grab the Staff of Rhynn +4 and a Prot Undead scroll. Bastard sold all my gear... he should have the gold. So Kangaxx is done for.

And seriously. Any arch mage worth his salt can kill a dragon, so Firkraag is toast.

My money is on Irenicus.

Blades

Black Blade of Disaster. Irenicus all the way.

Arunsun

In normal form Irenicus has fire resistance , I am pretty sure that if he were to face a red dragon he would protect himself from fire.

@elminster Elminster is level 29, Irenicus is 30, that s what I meant by "stronger". I can't tell who would win an Elminster vs Irenicus fight

Yannir

Arunsun said:

@elminster Elminster is level 29, Irenicus is 30, that s what I meant by "stronger". I can't tell who would win an Elminster vs Irenicus fight

I can. Elminster never loses.

Arunsun

Elminster himself says he would lose to PC, just saying, he does lose sometimes. Plus, having a goddess as a backer somehow improves your survivability

elminster

The line you are probably thinking of is

"No need to be bashful. There's only a handful of folks who'd be willing to take you on at this point. Not even I would dare... ho ho ho! And I've had considerable time to practice."

Elminster is just being complimentary in response to lines charname makes (in this case charname is being bashful about their power). He's not actually saying he would lose. This is Elminster after all. Not exactly the most straightforward fellow even at the best of times.

But as far as my bets go

Irenicus
Irenicus
Kangaxx

wubble

Elminster has some tricks up his sleeve which irenicus wouldn't be expecting, whereas irenicus is a bit impatient and would probably underestimate the old man. Plus there's always silver fire.

DreadKhan

And Irenicus DOESN'T have some tricks? Ever farmed Cowled Wizards? Eventually they send serious casters to deal with you. They don't send them to retake Spellhold. Those are big names iirc.

Slayer form would trump anything short of actual divine intervention by Mystra, which by SoA was not really allowed anymore. Silver fire is stupidly overpowered, but Slayer form is actually a divine avatar. I'd say Irenicus is pretty much going to know much more of Elminster than vice versa; Irenicus is much lower profile.

DJKajuru

I doubt that Irenicus would fight them empty handed, that's not the way wizards do.

Jarrakul

I'm a bit confused as to why everyone's touting Slayer-Irenicus are incredibly powerful. I mean, sure, the immunities are handy, but honestly I've always found that to be the least threatening encounter with him by a substantial margin.

Also, although the slayer is the avatar of a god, slayer form does not grant you the powers of a fully realized avatar. Just look at what Charname can do in slayer form vs. what Rillifane's avatar manages without breaking a sweat. If it weren't for those pesky non-interference rules, I don't think Irenicus's attempt at godhood would have gotten very far.

semiticgoddess

Irenicus' Slayer form is powerful because he regenerates 36 HP per round. Add that to his many immunities and he's very hard to kill.

DreadKhan

By your logic, IE going by just in game stuff, Elminster won't even attack. He just runs away asap, while Irenicus has access to high level magic. In other words, we can't go by how precisely the game works. For one, rules work differently for divine beings.

Now, does someone have info on statistics/abilities of Bhaal's Avatar from I suppose AD&D? I'd wager its able to handle a high level caster. I think I could look up Baal in Deities and Demigods of yore, but it won't have Bhaal.

Anyways, I know in 3.x Avatars are divine, and have thus some huge advantages vs a mortal. They have about half the 'Divine Rank' of their God, meaning a really powerful God's Avatar would be as strong as a lesser deity's full form.

Elminster would be badly outclassed I'd say, but I doubt Elminster can interfere, as he mentions, even if he wanted to.

Jarrakul

I'm not arguing that the characters are limited by only the abilities they display in-game, but when the only evidence we have for an ability existing is in-game, and that ability is used in actual gameplay, we should go with how it works in the game. The slayer form has some advantages, but it's extremely clear that it's not meant to be as powerful as a god. It's meant to be as powerful as it is mechanically, which is well within the range of what a ~30th level mage could deal with.

wubble

Irenicus doesn't use slayer form until he's in hell with charname so would he even be able to use it in a fight with elminster?

DreadKhan

...and again, by that logic Elminster can do nothing but move, talk, and die horribly if he doesn't run away, since thats what he does in game.

Divine Avatar = at least demi-god, and that outclasses Elminster.

Could he use Slayer is kinda an odd poing when its all 'what if' anyways. However, we could place this in a hypothetical universe where Irenicus wins in Hell if it makes you happy.

elminster

wubble said:

Irenicus doesn't use slayer form until he's in hell with charname so would he even be able to use it in a fight with elminster?

Not to mention Elminster had a rather bad time in hell. Don't think he'd be wanting to return anytime soon

DreadKhan

elminster said:

wubble said:

Irenicus doesn't use slayer form until he's in hell with charname so would he even be able to use it in a fight with elminster?

Not to mention Elminster had a rather bad time in hell. Don't think he'd be wanting to return anytime soon

Hell is other mages.

FinneousPJ

^I actually LOL'd

Jarrakul

DreadKhan said:

...and again, by that logic Elminster can do nothing but move, talk, and die horribly if he doesn't run away, since thats what he does in game.

Divine Avatar = at least demi-god, and that outclasses Elminster.

I'm trying to figure out the logic here. You're saying that if an ability that only exists in a game is limited by its use in the game, then a character that exists outside the game and is not meant to fight in the game is also limited by what they do in the game? That doesn't make much sense. Both Elminster and the Slayer Form ability should be assumed to be capable of everything they're shown to be capable of across the media they appear in, and no more. Elminster isn't limited to walking away because BG isn't the only source we have for him. The slayer form is limited to its in-game effects because we have no other source for what the Bhaalspawn slayer morph does. You're assuming that it's somehow granting all the powers that the actual avatar of Bhaal had, but there's no indication of that anywhere. It's certainly the form of the slayer, and it confers a certain amount of power, but we literally have stats from the only source it ever appears in, and they don't include anything remotely like demigod status.

elminster

Bhaal is also obviously a dead power. At the best of times an avatar represents only a small portion of the power of that god. Given that Bhaal is dead I can't imagine that represents relatively very much power (since bhaal would be floating in the astral plane I assume). The fact that you can only access the avatar for brief periods of time, and that Irenicus is only shown to be able to access it for any duration until "Hell" (what is left of Bhaal's realm), could very well mean that he is equally incapable of using it for any more than a few moments in the prime material plane (where he would be facing Elminster).

On the otherhand Elminster is one of the Chosen. The earlier chosen (including Elminster) were selected by Mystra in part because they were some of the few people who had the fortitude to stand the amount of power being given to them by Mystra. So I can't see the Bhaal essence being any kind of a significant advantage for Irenicus compared at least to what Mystra offers Elminster. Certainly not to the point of it being remotely comparable to the level of a demi god.

wubble

the bhaalspawn slayer and ravager forms are also said to be more bestial than the avatars.

Arunsun

I am not sure who would rule these fights but in the end, The Winged>Enegar> all those enemies you meet in BG2 vanilla except for Amelyssan

DreadKhan

Avatars aren't game only, and even an avatar without their divine spark can be pretty powerful, as the Avatar trillogy showed. The Slayer HAS divinity, meaning it'd be much more powerful than that Avatar.

I'm profoundly doubtful that Elminster would have a hope in... erm, hell, vs Slayer. A chosen gets some perks, but isn't a God. And the game refers to the Slayer as an Avatar.

Regarding duration, thats another painfully obvious bit in my favour; you're channeling divine energy, which tends to be pretty hard on mortals in Faerun. The PC clearly isn't maxing out the Slayer form's potential, but Irenicus would be better at using the Slayer AFTER the PC is killed, because he'll get even more essence. He's sharing it in Hell.

Jarrakul

The game refers to the slayer as an avatar, sure, but it also very deliberately provides examples of what the slayer form is capable of. Since there is no other source for the slayer form ability, and a person turning into the slayer is not necessarily at all similar to a god manifesting one, we can reasonably assume that the slayer abilities demonstrated in-game are the full extent of its abilities. There is simply no evidence that the slayer form was ever meant to actually manifest the full power of a divine avatar.

DreadKhan

Avatars are detailed in DnD stuff. They aren't a BG exclusive, even if this particular example might be. Also, you're ignoring some big issues:

1. Slayer is an Avatar, which is a codefied thing in DnD.
2. The Slayer form channels divine energy, becoming lethal to the PC if he channels too much. In Faerun, even really, really incredibly powerful casters cannot channel divine energy without being killed. Karsus would probably be a more powerful caster than Elminster, since he has access to Mythal level magic.
3. We are explicitly told the Slayer is well beyond the limits of mortals; 25 str in game isn't strong enough to open that one door, remember?
4. Irenicus can fight indefinately as the Slayer, something the PC can't do. Meaning Irenicus is known to not be as limited as the PC. Meaning it's known he's a better Slayer. What else could he do if he had time for more... experiments?