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Will SoD answer the major question of BG1?

Okay, maybe it is just my major lingering question.

Sure, Sarevok was the major mover and shaker, and primarily he used the Iron Throne to do it, but... Where did he find all those Doppelgangers? How did he get them on his side? and don't they represent a far more sinister threat than some shining lady? This is a well organized and effective group of shallar, and unless I've missed it, it is never really explained how or why they are working with Sarevok.

Doppelgangers in BG1 have infiltrated three major trading groups, impersonated every noble guest at the dukes palace, infiltrated one of the most highly guarded citadels on the sword coast (Candlekeep) and have shown a history in the region of wrecking stuff what with Durlag's Tower storyline having them infiltrate that as well.

I for one wouldn't mind some resolution to this.
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Comments

  • HudzyHudzy Member Posts: 300
    It's a good question. Similar to the conspiracy in BG2 people have mentioned around here. Are doppelgangers driven to operate independently or did they need Sarevok as a rallying figure? I don't know much about them.
  • billbiscobillbisco Member Posts: 361
    edited July 2015
    The doppelgangers are window dressing to show how cool Sarevok is. But yeah, they deserve their own motivations and credit for their mass replacement.
    Post edited by billbisco on
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    I always thought he hired them.
  • VitorVitor Member Posts: 288
    In BG1 we had so many Doppelgangers, that I really don't want any of them in SoD. It's best to explore other monsters.
  • MrWakkaMrWakka Member Posts: 7

    I always thought he hired them.

    How? Where?

    They don't form large communities, even family units are rare; more commonly meeting, mating, and then never meeting again. Yet here we have a relatively large number working together to infiltrate the noble and merchant classes, which while not unusual itself, is at this level of coordination and numbers.
    Vitor said:

    In BG1 we had so many Doppelgangers, that I really don't want any of them in SoD. It's best to explore other monsters.

    Ah, but this is why I want answers, there were so many of them and it was never explained or explored. I wouldn't need a large questline to answer this, just something that explains it reasonably.

    If the main villain, The Shining Lady, were to have a large army of shades at her disposal, and it is never explained how or where she found them or what motivates them then that isn't really exploring the monster. Similarly Sarevok having a large number of doppelgangers at his beck and call didn't explore them. I want to explore these creatures and know more of them. We know more of the motivations of the Sirine and Ogre Magi than we do of this group, and they are a single encounter you may never actually run into.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • AlexisisinneedAlexisisinneed Member Posts: 470
    MrWakka said:

    I always thought he hired them.

    How? Where?

    They don't form large communities, even family units are rare; more commonly meeting, mating, and then never meeting again. Yet here we have a relatively large number working together to infiltrate the noble and merchant classes, which while not unusual itself, is at this level of coordination and numbers.
    Vitor said:

    In BG1 we had so many Doppelgangers, that I really don't want any of them in SoD. It's best to explore other monsters.

    Ah, but this is why I want answers, there were so many of them and it was never explained or explored. I wouldn't need a large questline to answer this, just something that explains it reasonably.

    If the main villain, The Shining Lady, were to have a large army of shades at her disposal, and it is never explained how or where she found them or what motivates them then that isn't really exploring the monster. Similarly Sarevok having a large number of doppelgangers at his beck and call didn't explore them. I want to explore these creatures and know more of them. We know more of the motivations of the Sirine and Ogre Magi than we do of this group, and they are a single encounter you may never actually run into.
    Sarevok works for the Iron Throne, right? Isn't the Iron Throne a huge mercenary company that has head quarters in nearly all the major cities? Who says they wouldn't have connections with monsters and such.
  • Xavster_SongsteelXavster_Songsteel Member Posts: 6
    Mr Wakka that is a very good question. Maybe Sarevok convinced them by force or more likely talked them into forming an alliance. Perhaps the dopplegangers were magically bound by Semaj.
  • UnderstandMouseMagicUnderstandMouseMagic Member Posts: 2,147
    Excellent question.

    Just replayed BG and it's the dopplegangers that are the most sinister and frightening aspect of the game. Especially when you encounter them in DT.

    It's not that they are difficult to kill but what they are comes over as so evil, they revel in the killing, they revel in twisting the characters they kill and impersonate. They taunt you. You can understand why Durlag was driven mad.

    Why they completely disappeared in BG2 makes no sense, they could theoretically by anyone you meet. There's one in Chateaus Irenicus, so why nowhere else?

    I don't think the Iron Throne has anything to do with them, the representatives (from other cities) investigating what's going on in Baldurs Gate are angry at what is happening and seem completely unaware of their existence.

    I would suggest that Saverok gets their co operation because he promises war, something that would allow them to spread in the chaos that ensued?

    They refer to the mind flayers as their masters, that's understandable, but as there are so many it would be good to have some resolution about where they all went.
  • ButtercheeseButtercheese Member Posts: 3,766
    I am still wondering what the secret of Monkey Island actually is.


    Oops, wrong game.
  • The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    MrWakka said:

    Okay, maybe it is just my major lingering question.

    Sure, Sarevok was the major mover and shaker, and primarily he used the Iron Throne to do it, but... Where did he find all those Doppelgangers? How did he get them on his side? and don't they represent a far more sinister threat than some shining lady? This is a well organized and effective group of shallar, and unless I've missed it, it is never really explained how or why they are working with Sarevok.

    Doppelgangers in BG1 have infiltrated three major trading groups, impersonated every noble guest at the dukes palace, infiltrated one of the most highly guarded citadels on the sword coast (Candlekeep) and have shown a history in the region of wrecking stuff what with Durlag's Tower storyline having them infiltrate that as well.

    I for one wouldn't mind some resolution to this.

    Magic 8-ball says "yes".
  • EnchanterTimEnchanterTim Member Posts: 29
    From what i have read about doppelgangers, it is not just Sarevok who uses them. Many criminal organizations use them as spies or assassins, so why not the iron throne and Sarevok as well.
    The sheer number of them can be explained by the size of Sarevoks plot. Sure they are loners, but they live for elaborate plots to usurp power, so it is not unheard of that they gather in great number if the plot demands it.
  • PibaroPibaro Member, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,989
    edited July 2015
    Dee said:

    Hmmmmmm.

    Sometimes a Hmmmmmm worths more than a thousand words.

    1) who's the insider here? You spotted the plot long before the game is ready!!!!

    Or

    2) if only you asked this question 6 months ago.... We could have a great plot for SoD!!

    Which is the right Hmmmmmm meaning?
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377
    Dee said:

    Pibaro said:

    Dee said:

    Hmmmmmm.

    Sometimes a Hmmmmmm worths more than a thousand words.

    1) who's the insider here? You spotted the plot long before the game is ready!!!!

    Or

    2) if only you asked this question 6 months ago.... We could have a great plot for SoD!!

    Which is the right Hmmmmmm meaning?
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
    ...Ok, let me ask a question: Are you actually a Doppelganger and Beamdog is in fact already overrun with your kin?
  • NimranNimran Member Posts: 4,875
    Arcanis said:

    Dee said:

    Pibaro said:

    Dee said:

    Hmmmmmm.

    Sometimes a Hmmmmmm worths more than a thousand words.

    1) who's the insider here? You spotted the plot long before the game is ready!!!!

    Or

    2) if only you asked this question 6 months ago.... We could have a great plot for SoD!!

    Which is the right Hmmmmmm meaning?
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
    ...Ok, let me ask a question: Are you actually a Doppelganger and Beamdog is in fact already overrun with your kin?
    I suspect the answer would be "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm."

  • laptopman666laptopman666 Member Posts: 283
    Nimran said:

    Arcanis said:

    Dee said:

    Pibaro said:

    Dee said:

    Hmmmmmm.

    Sometimes a Hmmmmmm worths more than a thousand words.

    1) who's the insider here? You spotted the plot long before the game is ready!!!!

    Or

    2) if only you asked this question 6 months ago.... We could have a great plot for SoD!!

    Which is the right Hmmmmmm meaning?
    Hmmmmmmmmmmmmm.
    ...Ok, let me ask a question: Are you actually a Doppelganger and Beamdog is in fact already overrun with your kin?
    I suspect the answer would be "Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm."

    hmmmmmmmmmmmmm?
  • lockmundlockmund Member Posts: 354
    edited August 2015
    I always figured that Sarevok's ability to gather doppelgangers was linked to his helmet. We know that the mindflayers could control them (as they did in Durlag's tower) and his helmet sure looks like one to me.

    Perhaps that's too far fetched, but I have no better suggestion.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511

    From what i have read about doppelgangers, it is not just Sarevok who uses them. Many criminal organizations use them as spies or assassins, so why not the iron throne and Sarevok as well.
    The sheer number of them can be explained by the size of Sarevoks plot. Sure they are loners, but they live for elaborate plots to usurp power, so it is not unheard of that they gather in great number if the plot demands it.

    I don't think the numbers can be explained so easily. They appear to number in the hundreds, if not thousands. Do that many of a "very rare" species even exist in the Sword Coast region under normal circumstances?

    To explain the numbers, I would hypothesise that someone had been breeding them, perhaps with some kind of magenetically engineered Dopplganger Queen. That, and getting them to work together, suggests a powerful leader. We are dealing with long lived species, so we could be dealing with the same leader who directed the dopplganger attack on Durlag's Tower. That would be a mind flayer (or possibly Alhoon). Such a powerful being might ally themselves with Saravock, but only if it advances some plot of their own. As of the end of BG1, that hypothetical leader is still out there...


    On a different loose end all together, whatever was the final fate of Kazgaroth?
  • GoodSteveGoodSteve Member Posts: 607
    Fardragon said:

    From what i have read about doppelgangers, it is not just Sarevok who uses them. Many criminal organizations use them as spies or assassins, so why not the iron throne and Sarevok as well.
    The sheer number of them can be explained by the size of Sarevoks plot. Sure they are loners, but they live for elaborate plots to usurp power, so it is not unheard of that they gather in great number if the plot demands it.

    I don't think the numbers can be explained so easily. They appear to number in the hundreds, if not thousands. Do that many of a "very rare" species even exist in the Sword Coast region under normal circumstances?

    To explain the numbers, I would hypothesise that someone had been breeding them, perhaps with some kind of magenetically engineered Dopplganger Queen. That, and getting them to work together, suggests a powerful leader. We are dealing with long lived species, so we could be dealing with the same leader who directed the dopplganger attack on Durlag's Tower. That would be a mind flayer (or possibly Alhoon). Such a powerful being might ally themselves with Saravock, but only if it advances some plot of their own. As of the end of BG1, that hypothetical leader is still out there...


    On a different loose end all together, whatever was the final fate of Kazgaroth?
    Kazgoroth is slain by Tristan Kendrick in 1345 DR. So he has been dead for 23 years by the time Baldur's Gate 1 begins... that's why you can purchase his severed hand as a magic item.
  • FardragonFardragon Member Posts: 4,511
    Kazgoroth isn't the sort of beast that stays dead. And I expect it would like it's claw back.
  •  TheArtisan TheArtisan Member Posts: 3,277
    edited August 2015
    I assumed the Iron Throne always had doppelgangers contracted and on their payroll. It seems like something they'd do as a corrupt merchant corporation, take out other businesses and replace their leaders to take control of them. Actually, that's basically what almost happened with the Seven Suns.
  • EnchanterTimEnchanterTim Member Posts: 29
    Fardragon said:

    Kazgoroth isn't the sort of beast that stays dead. And I expect it would like it's claw back.

    Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't Kazgoroth an aspect of Bhaal? In that case as long as Bhaal isn't resurrected or a bhaalspawn succeeds him the chances of Kazgoroth coming back are slim to nonexistent.
  • ArcanisArcanis Member Posts: 377

    Fardragon said:

    Kazgoroth isn't the sort of beast that stays dead. And I expect it would like it's claw back.

    Correct me if i am wrong, but isn't Kazgoroth an aspect of Bhaal? In that case as long as Bhaal isn't resurrected or a bhaalspawn succeeds him the chances of Kazgoroth coming back are slim to nonexistent.
    Bhaal is ressurected because
    Viekang attacks Abdel and one of them dies, thus Bhaals
    plan *did* succeed, the Solar just forgot about Viekang :D


    Now that I think about it.. WotCs writers filled a plothole after what? 13 years? Kinda amusing ^_^
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    Fardragon said:

    To explain the numbers, I would hypothesise that someone had been breeding them, perhaps with some kind of magenetically engineered Dopplganger Queen.

    Say "Hello" to Queen Dopplepopolis for me!
  • Avenger_teambgAvenger_teambg Member, Developer Posts: 5,862

    I am still wondering what the secret of Monkey Island actually is.


    Oops, wrong game.

    What can change the nature of a man?
    Oops, wrong game too.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758

    I am still wondering what the secret of Monkey Island actually is.


    Oops, wrong game.

    What can change the nature of a man?
    Oops, wrong game too.

    But maybe... What can change the nature of a certain woman? (Imoen getting a second class?:)
  • GloomfrostGloomfrost Member Posts: 271
    edited August 2015
    Fardragon said:

    Kazgoroth isn't the sort of beast that stays dead. And I expect it would like it's claw back.

    "Although Kazgaroth can be slain, he always rises again a few years later to once again terrorize the Realms. It is said that only the legendary Sword of Cymrych Hugh can permanently destroy the Beast. Even then, his essence may live on within the Heart of Kazgaroth, a black, stonelike artifact of great power."

    Sounds like your both right.
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