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Weapon comparison for dual wielding DPS maximization - a few numbers

This is probably mostly of academic interest, but since I crunched the numbers for myself I thought I'd share.

I started with trying to figure out if Crom Faeyr or a +1 APR weapon like Belm +2 would be the better off-hand weapon for DPS maximization. Assumptions:

1) If you're not using CF, you get 22 STR either innately (18 base +1 tome, +1 lum, +2 hell) or from girdle or possible Angurvadal +5 (see below) in main hand. The dmg bonus difference between STR 22 and 25 is 4 (10 vs 14).
2) You have 2 pips in your weapons and use Gauntlets of Extr. Spec. netting you (a 14+ lvl warrior) 2+.5+.5+1 = 4 APR without a +APR weapon, or 5 APR with Belm.
3) The goal is to have 10 APR with Improved Haste so you can use Critical Strike over GWWA, having already achieved GWWA power longer and earlier with the use of a simple VI spell (or many items such as Ring of Gaxx).

As a benchmark, I contemplated using BOTH Crom Faeyr (main) and Belm (off). This means:
10 APR improved hasted, 25 STR
Main hand weapon damage: 8x (2d4+3=av.8) = 64
Off hand weapon damage: 2x (1d8+2=av.6.5) = 13
STR damage: 10x14 = 140
Spec. and gauntlets: 4x10 = 40
TOTAL AV. DMG/RD assuming all hits: 257 damage

So the question is, can we do better from a strictly DPS perspective (ignoring other on-hit effects or protective abilities for now) if we replace either weapon? And if we do, is it better to go down to 22 STR and keep 10 APR, or go down to 8 APR and keep 25 STR? Answering the latter first:

WPN X + Belm +2 (22 STR, 10 APR)
Off hand weapon damage: 13
STR damage: 10x10 = 100
Spec. and gauntlets: 4x10 = 40
Subtracting from benchmark: 257-153 = 104
Needed damage contribution from main to reach benchmark: 104/8 = 13 av. dmg/hit

WPN X + Crom Faeyr (25 STR, 8 APR)
Off hand weapon damage: 16
STR damage: 8x14 = 112
Spec. and gauntlets: 4x8 = 32
Subtracting from benchmark: 257-160 = 97
Needed damage contribution from main: 97/6 = 16 av dmg/hit

So even before considering on-hit abilities, it's clearly not worth sacrificing an extra attack to go from 22 STR to 25 STR, meaning Crom Faeyr probably does not deserve consideration for most dual wield builds. So then, what weapons can achieve roughly 13 av. dmg/hit? I was able to find:

Foebane +5: 12.5 av.dmg (2d4+5+1d4 drain). If all attacks hit, you'll also heal some 25 dmg/round, which is roughly a Karoug level of regeneration.
Angurvadal +5: 13 av.dmg. Conveniently sets your STR to 22 too, so it nets you +2 strength boosting items compared to the Crom Faeyr and offers elemental on-strike damage and NPP to boot.
Spectral Brand +5: 13 av. dmg. Very similar to Angurvadal with extra frost dmg instead of fire. Also gives NPP but nets you a dancing sword rather than 22 STR, which may be more useful depending on your STR.
Storm Star +5: 14.75 av.dmg. (averaging the chance of Chain Lightning etc. over several blows). The best option from only DPS perspective.

Honorable mentions:
Club of Detonation: 14.75 av.dmg like Storm Star, however I think the random fireballs hurt more than they help (turning summons hostile etc). Storm Star is safer to use and dualing druids are better off with Spectral Brand in the main.
Flail of Ages +4 (or +5): The +5 FoA has free action so negates haste, meaning it doesn't work in the build. If you're OK with giving up Improved Haste and Boots of Speed though, using GWWA with FoA +5 and Crom Faeyr in off hand is probably the highest DPS in the game. Only lasts 1 round/activation though, but as long as you hit with your attacks, almost all things will be dead in a round regardless. The FoA +4 isn't too shabby either, averaging 12.5 dmg/hit and slowing targets (few are immune to slow).
Axe of the Unyielding: A very powerful weapon to be sure, but I think it's over-hyped. The regeneration has nothing on Foebane, nor does it stack with ring of gaxx. The instal-kill chance is cute, but comes with a save and most will have super low saves or be immune to the effect by the time you get it. If they don't, you could be dishing out more damage with Foebane +5 and kill them from 250+ dmg/round while healing 25 hp/round instead.

Concluding remarks:
I think the best option by far if you're going for a build like this is Foebane +5. It's about 20 less damage/round, but in return you heal 25 hp/round, which is a tanking strategy onto itself! Your best DPSer is also a tank, from this item alone. You don't need stoneskin, mirror image, PfMW, Cloak of Mirroring, elemental resistance items etc. All the other party members can benefit from such items. Just go for super low saves to handle most status effects and cut AoE damage in half, reasonable AC if you get swarmed, and use your absurd regeneration to handle the rest.

Having done these calculations, Crom Faeyr appears to be even more of a niche item. The only situation I can think of where it would be better than the alternatives, is if you have a dual-wielding fighter/cleric with FoA +5 and CF. He can make do with his 3.5 APR against all minor ToB opposition because the damage/hit is so great, and then use GWWA when it matters. If you're using a shield though, FoA +5 trumps CF if your strength is already decent (especially with access to DUHM) - hell, it even trumps most two handed weapons if you're going for max damage when using GWWA.

If you're using more than 1 dual wielder, Angurvadal, Spectral Brand and Storm Star all have their merits as primary main hand weapons. It's ideal if you of your dual wielders has UAI HLA from rogue so he can use the Scarlet Ninja-to, as it is much better than belm/kundane (the overall contribution of the off hand weapon is small, however).
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Comments

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    If playing a Fighter/Mage, BBoD will deal an average 2d12+5+ 5from spec (since it provides grandmastery with the spell). With an offhand Belm and 22 Str it will deal an average 23 damage (21 for our calculation since you counted ** in spec) which makes it the best DPS from very far. But it is available to F/M only.

    You might as well want to consider the Fighter/Cleric which won't be able to equip Belm but won't need Crom Faeyr and have permanent max damage, which might change your figures as well.

    Or even straight fighter who will get Grandmastery, thus having 4,5APR when dual wielding something else than Belm, which slightly modifies the damage needed to compensate wielding Crom faeyr off hand compared to belm down to 9,7.
    Lastly you could as well consider a mainhand blackrazor which is, with high enough APR, permanent +3 str, and thus could replace Crom Faeyr. The damage value of level draining is hard to say but four levels on a 16con warrior are 20HP at least and even much more if repeated down to levels lower than 9. Purely damage-wise Blackrazor deals less than Crom Faeyr (Blackrazor is 7,5, Crom Faeyr is 13)

    By the way your calculation is overall a bit incorrect: Crom Faeyr deals 13 damage (since you took elemental damage in account for other weapons) which modifies the necessary amount to get same damage as CF+Belm to 14,5.
    But great job already, congrats.

    P.S. Just a question, did EE fix the bonus damage against certain type of enemy being applied to your other weapon when dual wielding Foebane or The Equalizer for example?
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    You use CF/Belm as a benchmark and then proceed to state CF does not deserve consideration in DW builds. That seems a bit contradictory. Perhaps you meant to say CF does not deserve consideration as off hand weapon? That I agree with.
  • I really think the best way to go from a damage standpoint is Crom in the main hand and Belm in the off hand. As Arunsun points out, Crom has +5 electrical damage, bringing its average up to 13. If you assume that the wielder would have 22 STR without Crom, that brings its average damage up to 17, which outperforms the rest of the field. That being said, now that Foebane's damage bonus against certain enemy types has been fixed, it's still a worthy contender, as the enemies that Foebane does more damage against are fairly common in the late game.

    @Arunsun I haven't tested anything, but I'm fairly confident that the damage bonus transfer from the Equalizer and such has been fixed in EE. I know that similar weapons in the Item Upgrade mod were fixed post-EE, so I assume they created a workaround for whatever loophole led to that interaction.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    @FinneousPJ Crom Faeyr is indeed as powerful mainhand weapon, third only (taking str into account compared to 22str) to FoA+5 which is incompatible with IH and BBoD which is available and useful to F/M only.
  • urdjururdjur Member Posts: 53
    Ah! I completely missed that CF adds elemental damage. Yes indeed, that does make it a very strong main hand weapon.

    I also didn't consider "created" weapons like BBoD, and I stated from the start that I was basing the calculations on 2 pips in the weapons, since that is the most common IMO for dual wielders.

    I have to say that CF is probably the overall best choice then, also because it is available so much earlier compared to Foebane +5. It's also blunt for golems and adds elemental damage in an uncommon immunity type to get past stoneskin, so it has all the bells and whistles you're looking for in a main weapon.

    Well, that settles it then: CF is officially the best main hand max DPS weapon, with Belm/Kundane/Scarlet ninja-to as off hand weapons (assuming you can't get higher than 22 STR in a better way and that you're interested in using Imp Haste). Foebane +5 is perhaps better as a tank weapon with GWWA and Darksteel Shield.

    Thanks for bringing this to my attention!
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Well, saying "most dual wielder only have two pips" sounds exagerated, a lot of them do get GM, F/M gets it with BBoD, F->M as well, Priest of Lathander-> F, F->C F->T and T->F and straight fighters get it as well. In fact, only paladin, ranger, F/T and F/C do not get it, and we hardly ever go for dual F/T or ranger.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited July 2015
    I've done way too much number crunching on damage values. Some examples of maximized setups (that aren't limited by scrolls or other finite resources) include:

    Fighter/Thief with Angurvadal, Belm, Improved Haste, and Assassination.

    Kensai with FoA, Belm, IH, and Critical Strike.

    Fighter/Mage with Black Blade of Disaster, Belm, IH, and CS.

    Fighter/Mage with BBoD, CS, and Greater Whirlwind Attack (both HLAs triggered in one round using Improved Alacrity).

    Cleric of Lathander(21)->Mage(22+) with BBoD or Iron Golem form, FoA in off hand, and DUHM+Righteous Magic+Improved Haste+Tenser's Transformation (via Spell Trigger if in Iron Golem form)+Boon of Lathander x3.

    Assassin with Scorcher Ammunition or Frag Grenades and IH+Poison Weapon, especially if multiple enemies are present.
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    @semiticgod Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the F/T be better off using SNT instead of Belm?
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    I would just add Dark Moon Monk with as many Frozen fist as you want since they stack, Righteous magic (Headband of the Devout), Fire giant Belt, Gauntlet of Crushing and GWW.
    Even without Frozen Fists that's a nice 430 damage per round, and with 10* Frozen fist you can get up to 200 additionnal cold damage.
    And F/M/T with the stupid Mislead/Backstab combo.
    To even push further @semiticgod thing, an assassin (25 for UAI and Assassination)=> fighter(26) with the same setup (SNT instead of Belm though) and headband of the devout would certainly be the best you can achieve without limited number of use. And the very very best is undoubtedly the same setup with a BBoD from a scroll in mainhand
  • urdjururdjur Member Posts: 53
    Arunsun said:

    Well, saying "most dual wielder only have two pips" sounds exagerated, a lot of them do get GM, F/M gets it with BBoD, F->M as well, Priest of Lathander-> F, F->C F->T and T->F and straight fighters get it as well. In fact, only paladin, ranger, F/T and F/C do not get it, and we hardly ever go for dual F/T or ranger.

    My perspective was the combination of improved haste + critical strike, which rules out most dual builds. I was thinking rangers and multiclass fighters would be the best candidates - rangers because they get dual for almost free and multiclass because they benefit most from improved hit ratio with critical strike (single class warriors can use GWWA to greater effect with better hit probs). Also, I doubt many fighter/mages waste 9th level slots on BBoD when solid, undispellable weaponry that is already there will perform so adequately.

    Again, the purpose of this thread wasn't to find theoretical maximums for dmg/round, but the best weapons for dualing under more practical/commom circumstances. So Assassination and unique class abilities was never a consideration for me :)

    Having said that, semiticgod's Kensai can't use FoA (+5) with IH, so Crom Faeyr is probably the best option here. Also don't understand why Angurvadal is best for the fighter/thief. It's good yes, but why the best in this setup?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Yannir said:

    @semiticgod Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the F/T be better off using SNT instead of Belm?

    SCT can't backstab. Unless EE changed that.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    @Urdjur spell immunity: abjuration makes you immune to dispel though. And yes, some F/M do so. One could say time stop is better but I can barely see the interest of time stop when you are already potentially protected from and immune to everything, given that you cannot dispel anything during the actual time stop. Yeah of course if I am in a random fight I might take time stop because I don't want to spend years buffing, and a IH + Time stop is easier to set up, but for serious fights TS is more or less useless. Same thing for critical strike, it may allow insane damage but enemies vulnerable to critical hit are rarely threats in the first place.
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595

    Yannir said:

    @semiticgod Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the F/T be better off using SNT instead of Belm?

    SCT can't backstab. Unless EE changed that.
    I'll have to test it out.
  • WowoWowo Member Posts: 2,064
    Yannir said:

    Yannir said:

    @semiticgod Correct me if I'm wrong but wouldn't the F/T be better off using SNT instead of Belm?

    SCT can't backstab. Unless EE changed that.
    I'll have to test it out.
    Can only backstab with weapons that thieves can use without UAI which disqualifies SNT and Staff of the Magi even though they are weapon classes that thieves can normally use.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited July 2015
    Nice number crunch, and pretty much about what I arrived at back before switching to IR/SR. If I remember my old tables correctly, the ranking of weapons went FoA+5 (if you can circumvent FA) > Foebane+5 > Crom Faeyr > Angurvadal+5, for "conventional" setups - meaning no clever use of Mislead, and no class-specific tricks like BBoD, Iron Golem, etc. I found a note somewhere saying "15+ = APR+; 14.5- = CF+", which is roughly the average-damage-per-hit number you have, but I can't recall how I arrived there and I no longer have my old vanilla weapon documents that detailed the calculations. Probably some of the variables for the default state set differently, or something.

    I personally refrain from using ML perma-backstab, but that may be the highest damage output you can muster. BBoD is also extremely powerful, and happens to be available to a combination already among the strongest (if not the strongest) attackers, i.e. Kensai->Mage. Iron Golem is similarly powerful.

    However, these spells do require considerable progression, and also some setup time. For ease-of-use you may want to stick to low-maintenance just-hit-till-they-die setups that essentially work if you just put IH on and nothing else.

    Another setup that might bear mention is Carsomyr + Greater Whirlwind Attack. 10 APR with an upgraded Carsomyr is quite the sight to behold, and is in fact available to a F/T (or K->T) via UAI.

    Still, there is no doubt in all of this that APR is *the* thing to build around. While certain strategies may compete or surpass, for straightforward, easy-to-use, no-questions-asked damage, maximizing APR is the way to go. It's why F->x duals are so powerful, why Belm/Kundane/SNT are the best offhands, and why Improved Haste is the best spell in the game.
    Arunsun said:

    One could say time stop is better but I can barely see the interest of time stop when you are already potentially protected from and immune to everything, given that you cannot dispel anything during the actual time stop. Yeah of course if I am in a random fight I might take time stop because I don't want to spend years buffing, and a IH + Time stop is easier to set up, but for serious fights TS is more or less useless. Same thing for critical strike, it may allow insane damage but enemies vulnerable to critical hit are rarely threats in the first place.

    A few things should be noted here.

    First, it is very correct that Time Stop is a bit of a trap. If you're actually running with a party and not solo, very often TS is a damage LOSS. It is essentially a global stun on all but one characters, meaning you take your entire party (-1) out of the damage equation. For total damage output, that can be a horrendous downgrade. TS' main use is, in fact, DEFENSIVE as opposed to offensive, i.e. it's biggest value is that no one can fight back and kill/hurt/disable you rather than just allowing you to deal a lot of damage. This can absolutely be very valuable. TS is a powerful spell. But many people simply think it is free damage out of nowhere - when really, it is not.

    Second, Critical Strike. While you are correct that many enemies (especially very powerful ones) are immune to critical hits, many powerful enemies are also not - Mind Flayers and Beholders for example can be mowed down quite effectively with CS. Furthermore, even against enemies that cannot be critically hit, CS will still make every roll a natural 20 - meaning it will be a guaranteed hit. Especially with duals and against high-AC targets, gaining 100% hit rate can actually translate into a LOT of damage. And what would you take instead? Likely a defensive skill. If you're a "proper" setup, you can naturally max APR via IH making GWW useless; if you're a non-max-APR setup, then you're using GWW anyway no questions asked (e.g. as a Paladin/Ranger with low natural APR due to 2h or bow usage). This leaves CS as the only offensive skill left to take.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    @Lord_Tansheron it is worth noting that GWW gives you 10 APR no matter the weapon, which can make it valuable to get 10 APR on a weapon you have no proficiency in (say, a 2h weapon with a disabling effect, like the Ravager, Ixil's Spike, etc... for example), which makes it valuable. By the way it might as well allow you to get 10 Mainhand APR as opposed to 8mainhand and 2 belm, for example, which is less damage and on-hit effect. GWW is good as well even if capped in APR. So is critical strike, it is not an absolute necessity but still valuable in particular situations indeed.
    Back to time stop, a F/M with Stoneskin, Spell immunity: Abjuration and protection from energy is overall immune or very resilient to a LOT of things. My personal favourite is Berzerker=>Mage which allows you to get Berzerker rage, which, with those spells, makes you immune to any disabler, and nearly immune to any damage. But if playing a F/M or another dual, the same result (or very close to it) can be achieved with Chaotic command. And if you are immune to every type of disablers, dispels and damage, your defense is already perfect, no need for a timestop. Plus I cannot count the number of times I timestopped, but 0.5 sec before the cast ends, enemy mage casts PfMW. Undispelable during TS, wasted spell.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Arunsun said:

    it might as well allow you to get 10 Mainhand APR as opposed to 8mainhand and 2 belm, for example, which is less damage and on-hit effect.

    This is very true, and something to keep in mind when using GWW (unequip offhand for the duration). However, in many cases going with 8+2 and Critical Strike is usually more damage gain than 10+0 with GWW.
    Arunsun said:

    Back to time stop, a F/M with Stoneskin, Spell immunity: Abjuration and protection from energy is overall immune or very resilient to a LOT of things. My personal favourite is Berzerker=>Mage which allows you to get Berzerker rage, which, with those spells, makes you immune to any disabler, and nearly immune to any damage. But if playing a F/M or another dual, the same result (or very close to it) can be achieved with Chaotic command. And if you are immune to every type of disablers, dispels and damage, your defense is already perfect, no need for a timestop. Plus I cannot count the number of times I timestopped, but 0.5 sec before the cast ends, enemy mage casts PfMW. Undispelable during TS, wasted spell.

    This illustrates very nicely why TS is overrated. It's often just overkill. There are a few situations where it may be useful to take out a few problem enemies without resistance, but in most fights it's a waste. I think the only time I regularly use it is in the course of Neera's quest, where you fight a truckload of mages at once that in my setup all have HLAs to chuck at you (3-5 Dragon's Breaths do damage you rather effectively). Under TS I can kill or disable a lot of them without risking fiery death, which is the most effective solution I could come up with for that particular fight. But that's basically it. Most other fights have better solutions, and the really difficult ToB boss fights usually involve TS immunity anyway.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I've found that sometimes the best use for Time Stop is to give the caster automatic hits. Aside from simple damage output or Stoneskin removal, it also opens up a lot of other possibilities.

    The Answerer for the AC+MR penalty
    Mind Flayer attack for INT drain
    The Chaos Blade for DEX drain
    Staff of the Magi for dispel
    Staff of Striking, Ram, or Iron Golem form for backstabbing
    Minute Meteors for debuffing (each meteor's fire damage is equivalent to a level 3 spell)

    The characters who can cast Time Stop usually have poor THAC0, and normally wouldn't be able to make as much use of these things,
  • DeriloreDerilore Member Posts: 44
    From a DPS standpoint people forget to mention blackguard.

    25 Str (self buff)
    GWW or Haste/CS (both options)
    PSN weapon (extra 12 per hit, not even factoring in the bonus if save is failed)
    Aura (-4 enemy ac, -4 thaco, -4 damage) pretty damn huge


    Discounting backstab (great on trash mobs but useless vs anything you want the damage for), I'd say these are the best.

    K/M (BBoD) 24+5 +Str(say 22 so +10) x8 = 312dmg
    +Belm (8+2+10)x2 so 40
    K/M total = 352 (+30/40 depending on dual lvl)
    (need lvl 9 scroll or very high lvl to pull this off so....)

    BG (FOA/EQUAL +Gww)
    (18.5+6+14+12)x8 = 404
    (12+14+6+12)x2 =88
    so 492 with gww

    Plus you can opt to use DOE (20% DR, Hardi 40% DR and AOF 20% DR) and go 80% damage reduction if you ever just want to run in and tank everything. Saves and resists are great being a paladin class. Toss out the Aura and that's another -4 static damage reduction not to mention the thaco reduction) with the BG's AC it's pretty difficult get hit to begin with. With Foebane it's just lolz as you pretty much cant go down.

    Really it comes down to personal preference and party composition.

    If you want to kill something big quickly... the Harm spell does it faster. Especially after a couple lower resist spells.

    F/M or even a berserker/mage are also good, vahilors helm, bam simulacrum, bbod scroll on simulacrum hit berserk and "ALL YOUR BASE BELONG TO US". (once you hit chapter 6 and get special ware access anyways).

    Best weapons really will vary from kit to kit.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    @derilore I would just mention a K/M also gets 3 bonus damage per hit due to Kensai kit. And something else you seem to have forgotten. I believe that no enemy exceed 350HP among those you get to face in SoA or ToB, and I do not know many datas about enemies, meaning 90% of the time I will simply hit them till they die, without making an optimal use of the poison at all. So yes, you might say that with poison weapon theorical achievable DPS from BG is great, and I cannot deny it is, and poison weapon is a huge asset for BG, but you do not achieve it in practice, whereas you do achieve it with a kensai. By the way the Equalizer bug was solved with EE, meaning FoA will not benefit from it, so you had better use FoA only during GWW.
    I really love BG, one of my favourite class due to the fact it combines the best tankiness (or almost so, DDef can be slightly better, at the cost of movespeed) and still a very very good damage output.
    P.S. If you wanna have fun with poison, try assassin mage with MMM or EB and poison weapon, it is quite fun as well. And one last thing I have yet to test: whether explosive arrows still proc poison in area of effect or not, because if they do, it would be insane with a simulacrum, tuigan bow and IH. You can get 10 of these during Rasaad ToB quest by the way.
  • DieAnnaDieAnna Member Posts: 9
    I don't understand something. Some of those weapons you bring up as being among the best, mainly the +1 APR ones and Crom Fayer, aren't +5 or even +4, so they won't hit the most difficult enemies in ToB. Are they still worthwhile past SoA?
  • DeriloreDerilore Member Posts: 44
    @asunsun yeah i included the kensai bonus that's my "K/M total = 352 (+30/40 depending on dual lvl), depending on lvl 9 or lvl 13 dual.

    Yeah assassin mages can be fun, especially with polymorph self. Nothing quite like a 10 attack spider (IH) running poisoning everything. Using any weapon no less (if u get UAI) mage/theif weapons otherwise.

    Wasn't aware equalizer was fixed. Bummer, but not really necessary anyways. Still a 60 dmg loss on my BG though, by my numbers.

    I'd argue that the poison does help, probably not to full effect as theoretical but DOT's are always massive increases in dps. Things like dragon buffet knock you back. One problem being afaik all undead are psn immune so there is that.

    Pro Tip (fireseeeds, druid spell, does work with psn weapon). It's quite amusing using a BG + Jahera combo, fireseed, psn, insect plague an entire group of mobs.


    So i've actually been wondering more and more about weapon speeds and movement interactions. I'm starting to lean twards 2h + ranged vs dw. It seems to provide more actual dps vs enemies that flee or move targets. Not to mention summons in the way etc.

    speaking of summons (another Pro Tip, limited wish Wis <9, protected from UD right now) summons 6 very strong vampires. They practically instagib you unless you use a project image or simulacrum for the limited wish. They can be turned by a lvl 15 evil priest, no summon limit and they are brutal. (scroll of foolishness sets wiz to 3 and is found in irenicus's dungeon c1)


    My favorite PC is my zerk mage, staff and xbow. Why those? Rod of Smiting, vs golem, staff of air, staff of fire, staff of earth vs elementals. You have staff of the ram for dps, staff of the magi for dispells/scouting/omg i'm gonna die. xbow, well because firetooth is good cheap and can be gotten very early, pew pew the trolls (literally). All with 10 attacks (spider). You can potion for str.

    There are also some very fun items, staff of domination which work great on a simulacrum. Staff of power for pew pew paralyze lightning.

    Maximizing dps can vary quite a bit. Daystar and Dragonslayer for instance will skew the numbers in favor of those enemy types.

    Now if we're talking the end all be all best weapon combo... Ravager +6 probably tears things up the most. Celestial Fury can stun what it cant damage. stun means auto hit, so it's always a favorite. FOA slow's everything, no save allowed. CAR +6 has the OP dispel.

    Crap, gotta start another playthrough now... new party idea.

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    DieAnna said:

    I don't understand something. Some of those weapons you bring up as being among the best, mainly the +1 APR ones and Crom Fayer, aren't +5 or even +4, so they won't hit the most difficult enemies in ToB. Are they still worthwhile past SoA?

    Only two enemies in the game require +5 to hit, and both are not usually encountered (Demon Lord in Ust Natha and the wraith from a Deck of Many Things draw). Everything else can be hit by +4 just fine, and even +4 is only required for a few select ToB bosses.

    As for the APR offhands, due to the fact that OH APR is capped at 1 (2 under IH) anyway, the actual hit damage of your OH isn't very important. The extra +1 APR these weapons add however is added as a MAIN HAND swing, and that usually translates into enough of a damage increase to offset the loss.

    Also, Crom Faeyr is in fact a +5 enchanted weapon (despite not clearly stating that it is). All of the best engdame choices are (FoA, CF, Foebane, Angurvadal, Carsomyr, Club of Detonation...).

    The only problem with enchantment level is that there is no +4 ammunition available, meaning you have to rely on ammo-free bows/crossbows that come with their own +4 or better ammo (Gesen Bow, Firetooth). I suppose one could also argue that Celestial Fury suffers a bit from only being +3, as its stun effect could be quite potent against some of the pertinent enemies (its actual damage is rather low, though).
  • DieAnnaDieAnna Member Posts: 9
    @Lord_Tansheron I thought there were more enemies immune to weapons in ToB. For example, I thought that most fiends in the Watcher's Keep had very high immunities, especially the chromatic demon and the marilith group. I also thought that the Demogorgon and the ToB final boss could only be hit with +5 or higher. Is this incorrect, then? It seems to be, from what you have said.

    So the only way for your off-hand to hit twicein one round is if you're under the effect of improved haste? Does that double the attacks on each hand or is it a bit more complicated than that?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Chromatic Demon is immune to physical damage, but not weapons. You can hit him with Usuno's Blade, but only the electrical damage will have any effect, assuming he's in the right form.

    Not that it matters... he's vulnerable to Cloudkill in all his forms, and with Cloudkill's high damage over time, there's not much incentive to use many other spells or weapons.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    DieAnna said:

    I also thought that the Demogorgon and the ToB final boss could only be hit with +5 or higher. Is this incorrect, then? It seems to be, from what you have said.

    This is indeed incorrect. Only the Demon Lord and the wraith I mentioned require +5, everything else can be hit by +4. This is in the unmodded game, of course.

    Note that some spells may change what weapon can hit you. Improved Mantle will require +5 to pierce, and Absolute Immunity will require +6. Protection from Magic Weapons will block any enchanted weapon (but not un-enchanted ones - these may however be in turn blocked by innate immunities). Perhaps such temporary effects are what made you think the bosses required higher enchantment levels? These effects don't usually last long, and can also be dispelled; the innate enchantment level requirement however cannot be removed. An important distinction!
    DieAnna said:

    So the only way for your off-hand to hit twicein one round is if you're under the effect of improved haste? Does that double the attacks on each hand or is it a bit more complicated than that?

    In essence, yes, it just doubles the attacks of each hand. What the spell effectively does is cram two rounds worth of attacks into one, so you go through two round cycles in the time everyone else goes through one. That is why you hit twice with your off hand within a normal 6-second round, even though off hand swings are usually hard-capped at 1 APR.

    As was mentioned earlier, it should be noted that the maximum APR you can attain is 10. This can be reached with Improved Haste if you have 5 APR without temporary buffs (the cap for unbuffed APR), or it can be reached via the (Greater) Whirlwind Attack HLA. *HOWEVER*, as we discussed, there is an important difference between GWW and IH in that you should unequip your off hand completely during GWW to make sure that all 10 swings are made with the main hand only, and not wasted on a weaker, less accurate off hand. You can also equip a 2h weapon for the duration to get even higher per-hit damage (though the difference between 1h and 2h is often not very big).
  • DieAnnaDieAnna Member Posts: 9
    Thanks, Lord. That answers my questions and a lot more. I wasn't remembering the mosters correctly due to having last played ToB a very long time ago. The SoA content, however, I know well.
  • DeriloreDerilore Member Posts: 44
    TBH, I always wonder why people rate Crom so highly. I tend to use potions for any serious fight myself. Storm Giant is 24, so crom only has a 2 dmg advantage on classes that cant hit 25 strength.

    So lets look at the weapons

    FoeBane +5= 12.5 avg (10.5 vs magic immune)
    Angurvadal +5 = 12.5 av (9 vs fire resistant HIGHLY COMMON)
    Spectral Brand +5 = 12 avg (9 vs cold immune)
    Storm Star +5 = 15 avg (goes up 2 pts, per additional target in combat)
    Crom = 12.5 (+2 dmg over storm giant potion)
    FoA +5 = 18.5 (no improved haste)
    Foa + 3 = 10
    Foa +4 = 12
    Celestial +3 = 9
    Hindo +4 = 9
    Ice Star +4 = 11
    unyielding +5 = 9
    Unsuno +4 = 9
    Purifier +5 = 9
    Blackrazor = 10

    Interesting note on weapons with level drain. They remove the bonus hp gained by those levels the same as a regular player character or joinable npc. The game engine uses the warrior class as a default for any npc creature that does not have a class. So depending on the npc drained each level drain equates to a hp loss of 5 per level drained.

    In the end i'd say it really comes down to Foebane/Crom/Foa +4/ Stormstar,

    Foebane's +6 vs ud and demons puts it a bit ahead in terms of damage, and the heals per hit are nice.
    FoA + 4 has it's slow meaning you'll be getting hit less to begin with, blunt damage!
    Crom you don't have to pop a potion on the big fights, blunt damage!
    Storm has the benefit of when it proc's during multi enemy fight the damage spikes up radically and Blunt!

    Mind you this is just a 1h weapon comparison, we aren't taking into account maximum dps of kits or other special abilities.


  • I don't know how widespread this is, but I have a tendency to be overly parsimonious with potions, so I tend to count permanent/constant bonuses more than what you can get by taking a few seconds to chug potions before a fight. Also, potions can be dispelled. Honestly, I just have a tendency to forget I have them.

    Still, though, Crom has an average damage of 13 per hit, so even if you're chugging potions all the time, the extra +2 damage puts it at 15 damage per hit, which still makes it one of the most damaging weapons in the game, and one you can get before ToB and without venturing deep into Watcher's Keep.
  • YannirYannir Member Posts: 595
    Kaigen said:

    I don't know how widespread this is, but I have a tendency to be overly parsimonious with potions, so I tend to count permanent/constant bonuses more than what you can get by taking a few seconds to chug potions before a fight. Also, potions can be dispelled. Honestly, I just have a tendency to forget I have them.

    I go a bit further actually. I usually sell all potions except superior or extra healing potions and antidotes. Even those I rarely use.
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