Cant even say how useful the protection from undead scrolls are. I've always liked being able to pop a potion of power and storm giant, nothing quite like having 400 hp and -15 thac0 or better.
It's the main reason i find most fighter HLA's so useless (barring whirlwind),
Statistically Club of Detonation hits the hardest at 19 average damage, but as many monsters have high fire resist in reality that is significantly less.
But I also like to run spell immunity abj which prevents dispell and maze/imprisonment. Pretty nice with improved invis as well +4 thac0 +4 ac.
Crom wins over Belm in terms of dps because GWW. And so are other weapons. Belm isnt even a great improved haste weapon, because equipping a good offhand weapon would not only result in an extra attack but also a weapon bonus, for example you could equip the Axe of the Unyielding and get the same amount of +5 attacks plus regeneration and two chances per round to instakill an enemy.
haste can be dispelled critical strike with tob thac0 is just 5% dps boost. foebane can be resisted
GWW should not be the basis of damage maximization. It is a very limited resource that you only get late in the game. Improved Haste lasts much longer and costs about a third as much XP to get a hold of. IH can be dispelled, but your IH is very unlikely to be dispelled in less than the 6 seconds it takes for GWW to wear off naturally. Even with Dispel Magic flying around, IH will still outlast GWW.
@Roller12: You're underestimating Belm here. There's a reason people talk about it so much. I'm a fan of Belm myself, so I've got a lot of praise for it.
Let's say a mod introduces a new weapon to the game. This weapon has a unique ability: you can turn it into Celestial Fury, Jhor the Bleeder, Flail of Ages, Foebane, or any other single-handed melee weapon, and it will have all the offensive powers of the original. The only restriction is that it can only duplicate weapons you've come across. On top of that, this weapon deals 2 more damage than the original on average per hit... or sometimes more than 2. Maybe it does 5 more damage. It's variable like that. But, no matter what weapons you've got, it always deals more damage than any other weapon you possess. What would you think of this item? Wouldn't it seem ridiculously overpowered?
Well, that weapon is Belm.
The thing about Belm is not simply that it gives you an extra APR. It's that it gives you an extra APR with any one-handed weapon. Same goes for Kundane, the Scarlet Ninja-to, and the Shadow Thief Dagger.
Let's say you're dual-wielding the Axe of the Unyielding and the Flail of Ages. Which one goes in your main hand? That's the most powerful one, right? They're not quite equally useful, so you pick the stronger one to put in your main hand. You get 3 APR with the stronger weapon, and 1 APR with the weaker, for a total of 4.
What if you dual-wield with Belm instead? Then you get 4 APR with the stronger weapon, and another 1 APR with a weaker one, for a total of 5.
Let's put a number value on it, and let's pick the value which does the least to support my claim. Let's say the axe is worth 1,000 (the units are abstract), the flail is worth 1,001, and the scimitar itself is worth... nothing, because the enemy is immune to +2 weapons.
In that case, you've got the Belm+Flail setup, with a value of 4,004 (4*1,001+1*0), and the Belm+Axe setup, with a value of 4,003 (3*1,001+1*1,000). Even if the scimitar itself is useless, and the axe and flail are near-equal in value, Belm is still the superior off hand weapon, because it adds to the strongest weapon you've got.
There aren't many times when another off hand weapon would be superior to Belm. One example is if there's a defensive effect you need (say, immunities from Arbane's Sword, or spell slot bonuses from Dak'kon's Zerth Blade). Another would be if your APR is high and/or your base damage is low, in which case Crom Faeyr would give more damage output overall. A third example would be if you're using GWW, at which point APR bonuses no longer matter. But most of the time, GWW will not be active on your character, even if you dedicate all of your HLAs to GWW, simply because GWW arrives so late and wears off so quickly. Except for very rare and very short periods of time, Belm will grant more offensive power than almost any alternative, at least if we're talking about dual-wielding.
Also, the Axe of the Unyielding is not a good example of a solid alternative to Belm--the non-upgraded +3 version is at the bottom of Watcher's Keep, and getting the +5 version occurs even later in ToB. The Axe of the Unyielding is only available for about 10% of the game. Cut all of its bonuses by 90%, and that gives you an indication of how useful the weapon actually is over the course of the adventure. The same applies to a lesser extent to Crom Faeyr: Crom Faeyr is only available after the Underdark, late in SoA. Also, Crom Faeyr's STR bonus is equal to the sum of its components: the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Girdle of Frost Giant Strength give the +7 to hit and +14 to damage that Crom itself gives. Often, those items are better off on their own, and it's more practical not to forge Crom in the first place.
The numbers are a bit off. All of them except Crom Faeyr should end in .5 for their physical damage. All D&D dice have an average value of something .5, except for 1d3, which is 2 on average, and since Crom is the only one that rolls two dice, it should be the only one with an integer as an average damage value, not counting elemental and magic damage.
Here are my numbers. I count elemental stuff, and assume the user has 19 STR but no proficiencies, for simplicity's sake. Items full upgraded unless otherwise specified:
Foebane: 22.5 Angurvadal: 22 Spectral Brand: 19 Storm Star: 20 (2.625 average from Chain Lightning, save for half) Crom: 22 FoA +5: 26.5 FoA + 3: 17.5 FoA +4: 19.5 Celestial Fury: 16.5 (5% chance 20 electrical damage, easy to forget) Hindo's Doom: 16.5 Ice Star: 18.5 Axe of the Unyielding: 16.5 Usuno's Blade: 16.95 (10% 1d10 electrical) Purifier: 16 Blackrazor: 14.5
I count elemental stuff, and assume the user has 19 STR
I discounted all strength-bonuses, because you can't really assume 19 strength from someone wielding Crom since it specifically does otherwise. As does Angurvadal. Otherwise I'm with you.
So Crom and Foebane are actually the most damaging mainhand weapons, if we specifically bar out using GWW. Something a Kensai -> Mage might do.
@Yannir: I mean I assumed 19 STR for the purposes of distinguishing between Crom, Angurvadal, and other weapons, as opposed to not counting STR bonuses in my calculations, or assuming 10 base STR. Crom got the 14 damage bonus as it was supposed to. I need to fix Angurvadal, though.
Belm is still the superior off hand weapon, because it adds to the strongest weapon you've got.
The reason why everyone is using dualwield even with GWW is because different weapons add different bonuses. Crom and belm only have 25str. Crom and the axe have 25str and regeneration. Since both bonuses apply, they work best together. So in that example Crom is 1000 hammers and Axe is 1000 nails. Doubling one at the expense of another is detrimental in any case.
Its a good chapter 2 weapon. In chapter 3 or so you can already use FoA+DoE or the plethora of other +3 weapons rendering Belm obsolete. Although there probably does exist a scenario where the party is just full of dual-wielders then it still has a place if one would spend proficiency points in scimitars just for that.
@Roller12: I'm speaking from the perspective of damage optimization. Like I said before, there are indeed other reasons to use a weapon besides Belm, like the AotU's regeneration or DoE's resistances. But this thread is about damage.
I've double-checked my math and it turns out that Crom Faeyr actually adds more damage per round than Belm in certain situations. I was wrong. Basically, Crom Faeyr adds the most damage from Chapter 6 to mid-game ToB. From chapters 1-5, and after getting the Girdle of Fire Giant Strength, Belm adds more. It varies a little even then, depending on how strong the other weapon is (Belm adds more to powerful weapons; Crom adds more to weaker weapons).
Also, Wish-resting is not very reliable. You have about a 10% chance per casting of getting a Wish-rest (same chance for a party-wide Improved Haste, by the way). IH will outlast GWW unless you get very lucky with Wish.
I only have two points: Belm adds more damage when dual-wielding than any other weapon, except for Crom Faeyr (and Belm's advantage grows larger when using high-damage weapons). GWW renders Belm obsolete, but IH is easier to get than GWW and will last much longer. I'm not saying Belm is ideal in all circumstances for all purposes; I'm saying it excels at damage output.
GWW numbers plainly suprass IH somewhere along ToB. A capped fighter has about 20 hla which realistically translates to about 15 GWW per rest per fighter, assuming 2-3 fighters thats ~100 GWW per day.
FoA+5 is 1d6+16 = 19.5 together with crom and gww that would be (19.5+14)*10=335 damage/round Foebane+Belm+IH+str22 from a fire giant girlde would be (12.5+10)*8+(6.5+10)*2=213damage/round FoA+5 @ 22 str @ GWW = (19.5+10) *10 = 295 Crom+Belm+IH+str22 is (13+14)*8+(6.5+14)*2=216+41=257
@Yannir: I mean I assumed 19 STR for the purposes of distinguishing between Crom, Angurvadal, and other weapons, as opposed to not counting STR bonuses in my calculations, or assuming 10 base STR. Crom got the 14 damage bonus as it was supposed to. I need to fix Angurvadal, though.
What's your basic damage on Crom? Because with strength applied, I get to 29 for damage with Crom. 5 from enchantment bonuses, 5 electrical damage and 5 average from the base damage. That's 15. Then you add the +14 that comes from strength.
ah was 1/2 asleep when averaging out the dps on weapons totally spaced the 0.5 from the dice rolls. I just averaged them all at 1/2. It doesn't really change the results on the best weapon overall though.
FoA still is the clear winner, just toggle weapons b4 you haste then swap back. Storm star is the next best, followed by foebane. Looking at dps anyways.
If you dont use str pots Crom wins, FOA slow is a beast though because it stacks.
@Roller12 The comparison is not GWW vs. IH. It's GWW vs. IH with Critical Strike. Even with a pair of attacks spent on an off-hand speed weapon, 8 attacks with your best weapon doing double damage each is hard to beat.
Noone who can pick critical strike will miss anything. Considering a hypothetical thac0 of -10, mobs would need to have an AC of -15 to meaningfully start affecting damage. Looking over enemy data, Demogorgon, Abazigal have AC -12 so will get hit on a 2. Critical strike removes the roll of 1, resulting in 5% more dps. 213*1.05=223 damage vs 335 gww'd
hypothetically Critical strike is an interesting ability i agree, just not in bg2 campaign.
A better more fair case would be discussing a fighter13->X dual class case who doesnt get access to fighter HLAs, i admit i kinda sidetracked the discussion in favor of GWW.
In that case a grandmaster with +0.5 apr gauntlets dualwielding anything will get 10 apr anyway, unless we consider vanilla game where grandmastery didnt grant bonus attacks. In that case i dont know, havent done the number crunch on that scenario.
I was thinking of a version of Crom which doesn't do electrical damage.
I think it's a very early version, before somebody realized a warhammer that's made out of the Hammer of Thunderbolts really should do electrical damage. Another oddity is that its unmodified physical damage is only 2d4+3, when it's a +5 weapon in terms of THAC0 and what it can hit. EE and at least one mod fixed it to do 5 electrical damage.
So my number for Crom was wrong. And I forgot to mention Foebane (also 2d4 base), since I removed mention of it during editing. Crom should be 27 base, or 29 assuming two pips in hammers: 2d4(base)+3(enchantment)+14(STR)+5(electrical)+2(proficiencies)=29.
If we want to maximize damage and care about nothing else, we've got several possibilities.
We could have a level 39 Kensai use Kai followed by GWW. Kai does max damage for 10 seconds, and GWW occurs 6 seconds later, so the Kensai gets 4 normal attacks, plus 6 attacks boosted by Kai. That means 5 average damage for 1d6 weapons or 6.6 for 1d8 weapons.
Ixil's Spike +6:
1d6+6 base damage, with an additional 3d6+15 damage on a failed save vs. death (25% chance against a normal late game enemy with a base 6 save vs. death). With 24 STR from Hell and the Girdle of Fire Giant Strength (they stack at least in vanilla), a +13 Kensai bonus at level 39, maxed proficiencies (+3 for spears, and +1 for two-handed weapons), he or she would do (5+3+13+12+6+1)*10+(3.5+5+3.5+5+3.5+5)*0.25*10=463.75 damage. But 42.5 of that would be damage outside of that round, since 2d6+10 of the 3d6+15 happens in the next two rounds. Bolstered by a party member's Greater Malison and Doom, the damage would be 540.25, with 92.5 damage only happening in the next two rounds.
Flail of Ages +5:
1d6+6 base damage, with an additional 10 from the elemental damage, no save, assuming the enemy is vulnerable to all of the elements. With the same bonuses, the Flail of Ages +5 would do (5+6+3+13+12)*10+(10*10)=490 damage. Since Single-Handed Weapon Style improves critical hit rolls by 1, we can add 5% to the physical damage, which makes a total of 509.5 damage, assuming the enemy is vulnerable to critical hits.
What about using IH with Critical Strike, assuming an enemy vulnerable to critical hits and is not disabled (I think critical hits don't happen against disabled targets, like in IWD2)? Like before, we use a Kensai, but this time we combine FoA +5 with Belm.
The main hand, FoA, has 8 attacks per round, and the non-elemental damage is multiplied by 2. This means the main hand does (5+6+13+3+12)*8*2+(10*8) damage, and the off hand, Belm, does (6.6+2+13+3+12)*2*2, for a total of 844.
What about backstabbing with Staff of the Ram with a Kensai(21)->Thief, assuming an enemy vulnerable to backstabs?
We use GWW for our APR and a Mislead scroll for backstabbing. Since STR bonuses are calculated after backstab multipliers, and this Kensai only gets +7 to damage from its kit, instead of 13, our formula is (5+12+3+7)*10*5+(12*10)=1,470 damage.
What if we're willing to maximize damage using any means necessary? Let's assume a party for this one, just to see what it looks like.
We use level 40 Blades with the Improved Bard Song, each of which uses the Wand of Lightning trick to summon 6 Mislead clones per 6th-level spell slots. Each Bard has 5 such spell slots, and one of them gets an extra from the Ring of Wizardry, but one slot must be expended on Improved Haste for every bard without the Bracers of Blinding Strike or Amulet of Cheetah Speed. The bard with the ring and either the bracers or amulet conjures a Simulacrum via Vhailor's Helm for a level 24 clone with 4 such slots. Between the 7 of them, they conjure 181 Mislead clones and one Simulacrum, each of which sings a song while the Blades attack using Minute Meteors with Offensive Spin and Improved Haste active, and one of them wears the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Expertise. As a party, they deal (3+3+3+2+2+211*4)*10+(3+3+3+2+2+181*4)*10+(3+3+3+2+181*4)*10*5=44,120 damage per round. If it's just one bard acting on its own, the bard can only summon 48 clones, and does (3+3+3+2+2+192)*10=2,050 damage per round.
So, if the target is immune to critical strikes and backstabs, a Kensai using the Flail of Ages with GWW does the most damage in one round. If we count damage in the next two rounds, then Ixil's Spike does more.
If the target is vulnerable to critical strikes but not backstab, a Kensai using the Flail of Ages and Belm with Improved Haste and Critical Strike does the most damage.
If the target is vulnerable to backstab and we're willing to use a Mislead scroll, a Kensai/Thief dualed at level 21 using GWW and the Staff of the Ram does the most damage.
If we're willing to use song stacking, a Blade with Minute Meteors and Improved Haste does the most damage.
40.5*10gww*0.95criticalmiss=385 damage/round (489 for kensai)
385(489)/round is the amount an unbuffed generic GWW fighter (kensai) can unleash at any time on anyone within reach in any party constellation. This is straight dps.
Of course it gets difficult to calculate dps with buffs involved which is why it can get misleading, for example that clone exploit army, if it takes longer than than 4 rounds to summon it, then a fighter still wins, assuming we want to deal 2k damage and the enemy doesnt interrupt the summoning "ritual" haha. :-D And same goes for IH, who is gonna cast that and then CS and Kai even, even if we assume that something isnt immune to criticals and isnt immune to +2 enchantment, thats 2 prep rounds already, so real dps will be half of that in the first round, or even 1/4 if a mob is immune to both criticals and enchantment and will be (38.5base*8apr/2preprounds)=
154dps with that Belm setup. In other words less than half the dps of the GWW, even using an exploit to get that FoA+5 hasted, and by the time it catches up, the battle is over.
If we start introducing in-battle circumstances, GWW also starts to look weaker. PFMW, invisibility, and enemy movement, if you're using melee weapons, can completely nullify GWW's benefit. There is a point at which every method of attack is ineffective. GWW is no different.
Backstab immunity, critical hit immunity, innate weapon immunity, spell-based weapon immunity, Stoneskin, Teleport Field, movement, disablers, damage resistances, interruption, buffing preferences, dispel magic, instant death effects, potion use, spellcasting, Maze, weapon availability over the course of the game, spell availability over the course of the game, level progression, shifting priorities in-combat, and various other factors could render both of our arguments completely invalid.
If you don't pre-buff, GWW is definitely better for you. I pre-buff, since I do no-reload runs with magic-heavy parties and SCS2 enemies pre-buffing as well, so IH doesn't cost me a round. Ultimately, these things are situation-dependent.
I think its fairly safe to assume that a generic midgame+ encounter worth prebuffing will feature immunity to criticals and there will be alot of high level Dispel Magic flying around, especially with AI mods. Heck even the group in the Promenade Inn casts Dispel as first action, granted no GWW there yet but it underlines its main advantage, its not even damage but debuff resistance. Dispelled? no problem, dps still there. and rebuffing during battle may prove difficult.
I think its fairly safe to assume that a generic midgame+ encounter worth prebuffing will feature immunity to criticals and there will be alot of high level Dispel Magic flying around, especially with AI mods. Heck even the group in the Promenade Inn casts Dispel as first action, granted no GWW there yet but it underlines its main advantage, its not even damage but debuff resistance. Dispelled? no problem, dps still there. and rebuffing during battle may prove difficult.
Sounds like @semiticgod is probably playing a much more difficult game than you.
Certainly in vanilla it is probably less tedious to just throw your characters at 99% of encounters and be quite confident of the outcome with minimal strategy or planning. Worst case is a reload.
On the other hand, SCS no reload is a completely different experience.
Did i miss something and SCS makes mages not cast Dispel magic and removes all helmets from the game? Otherwise im not sure how you could possibly come to that conclusion and its relation to weapon dps. Like said any AI mod only increases the importance of GWW because smarter AI will take steps to prevent casual rebuffing midfight.
@Roller12: Any AI mod will decrease, not increase, the importance of GWW, as the enemy won't be stupid enough to just stand there and take hits.
DPS makes very little difference in an SCS run. Enemies run away and shield themselves much more easily (Teleport Field pops up very often), and they use a lot better weapon immunity spells. Also, prebuffing becomes more valuable because the enemy uses disablers much more effectively. Since fights drag on much longer, and there will be many rounds where extra DPS is completely meaningless (GWW is negated by PFMW and disablers, and both is extremely common in SCS), raw damage doesn't much help, and sustainable APR is far more important. When the enemy instantly replaces its weapon immunities, short-duration combat buffs don't help much. When the enemy instantly replaces its Stoneskins, high damage output doesn't help much--APR does.
What would you do if an enemy activated GWW? When I see an enemy use that ability, I use PFMW, Teleport Field, Invisibility, or I just walk away for a few seconds. The net result? GWW doesn't affect my party at all. Wouldn't you do the same? Wouldn't you expect an intelligent enemy in SCS to do the same?
It's true that IH can be dispelled. That's why you don't cast it until after the enemy uses Remove Magic. Nor does IH necessarily take away rounds from your attacking, because your mage, not your fighter, casts it.
@semiticgod To bypass PfMW switch to normal weapons, or use spells, tons of tactics there. Stoneskin is even more pointless because elemental damage bypasses it, and in case of GWW Foa+5 thats 10x10=100 damage/round bypassing it, and will result in said caster getting stunlocked disrupted and possibly destroyed.
Stunlocked enemies dont run away. And they will be stunlocked with GWW. Teleport field is a problem, but as you said if its up, there is no need to use GWW, and unlike IH it doesnt have a duration to run out, so just wait it out, but its not even needed because Teleport Field can be protected against, so just ignore it and whack that caster on the head.
In short the mentioned things mostly dont affect gww performance.
And to clear up any possible confusion, of course i prebuff lol, its just not particularity needed with GWW beyond the bare basics, and i wouldnt play plain fighters in a no-reload game to begin with, and likely you didnt either. Its a fairly biased point, i dont have to defend pure fighters in a no-reload scenario, since we were discussing weapon dps!
When I see an enemy use that ability, I use PFMW, Teleport Field, Invisibility
Except we are not the AI. Are you comparing GWW efficiency based on what the AI does?
I would advise to try Tactics for a challenge. It features things like Devas in Irenicus dungeon, which is a fairly challenging adventure. I tried SCS once it was pathetically easy and tedious to say the least.
Reply in spoilers to avoid cluttering the thread. [spoiler] First, normal weapons don't stunlock or deal elemental damage. Only Firetooth with normal bolts can bypass both Stoneskin and PFMW, but the fire damage is blocked by spell protections, as it strikes as a level 6 spell. Also, in SCS, enemies come prebuffed with damage immunities, which prevents disruption if the caster is immune to the damage, unlike in the original game. Flail of Ages +3 will do zero damage in most cases against an enemy mage in SCS. To a lesser extent, the same applies to FoA +4 and FoA +5.
Second, Improved Haste renders a fighter equally capable of disabling or disrupting as a fighter with GWW. Why is this? This is because you can reach the same 10 APR with normal weapons by using normal darts or dual-wielding the Shadow Thief Dagger with a normal weapon. That lets you bypass PFMW, and does so just as well as GWW. What about Stoneskin? Improved Haste with Belm grants 8 APR with FoA. If the enemy is vulnerable to FoA, 8 APR will disrupt spells just as reliably as 10 APR.
Even if you have a means of getting around the enemy's defenses, Improved Haste and speed weapons work as well as GWW--GWW does not offer a special advantage in most cases.
Teleport field is a problem, but as you said if its up, there is no need to use GWW, and unlike IH it doesnt have a duration to run out, so just wait it out, but its not even needed because Teleport Field can be protected against, so just ignore it and whack that caster on the head.
I can't make heads or tails of this paragraph. Teleport Field doesn't have a duration? Yes it does; it lasts 10 rounds and activates once every 6 seconds. Because it has no duration, you can just wait it out? Yes, you can wait it out, but only because it does have a duration. You don't need to wait out Teleport because it can be protected against? No it can't; Teleport Field cannot be protected against via any means. It's a level 0 effect (Globe of Invulnerability will not block it) that bypasses MR and offers no save. Only Otiluke's Resilient Sphere can block its effects. Nor is there any way of getting immunity to the opcode. Nor will the enemy be immune to it; only Melissan has immunity to Teleport Field. You can't ignore it; it will rob you of APR irrespective of the situation unless you're using missile weapons.
The difference is that Improved Haste lets you keep your high APR even after PFMW, Teleport Field, or Invisibility wear off. It also remains for longer than the enemy can run away. GWW runs out easier, so smart enemies have more means of foiling it. My original point was that using IH offers more sustainable damage. Fifteen to 28 rounds of 6, 8, or 10 attacks means more APR and damage than ~5 rounds of 10 attacks.
When I see an enemy use that ability, I use PFMW, Teleport Field, Invisibility
Except we are not the AI. Are you comparing GWW efficiency based on what the AI does?
SCS enemies use PFMW, Teleport Field, Invisibility, and also will walk away. This is common SCS behavior, not just something I do. It's one of the reasons I like SCS: the enemies actually try to protect themselves. Your experience might be different if your SCS install didn't involve prebuffing. In my install, an SCS mage comes prebuffed with stuff like Stoneskin, Protection from Fire, Protection from Cold, Protection from Electricity, Protection from Acid, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Shield, Fire Shield (both kinds), SI: Abjuration, SI: Divination, Improved Invisibility, Spell Turning, and/or PFMW or Absolute Immunity (which in SCS blocks all weapons regardless of enchantment). They'll also throw out Teleport Field sometimes. On top of that, they will renew some of these defenses if debuffed, meaning you need good timing with GWW if you don't want 10 "Weapon Ineffective" messages in a row. I've found GWW is most useful when PFMW is gone but Stoneskins remain, since it lets me cut through Stoneskins using any weapon. But that's for debuffing or disabling, not so much for damage.
I play with SCS, and usually play with Tactics installed as well (SCS has some options which add better scripts to Tactics enemies). If you stick with Tactics but not SCS, it's not surprising that the enemy doesn't try to foil your GWW. [/spoiler]
GWW doesnt have a duration, everything else does so we can just wait it out. Its generally a fairly easy way to beat mages even early in the game, just hit&run with someone with good saves and make them waste their spells on nothing. (like the lich in the City Gates)
Teleport field can be protected against with Spell immunity:Alteration I cant imagine the pain you had to endure playing like that it being a fairly common spell
If the enemy is hellbent on running away - its not doing anything, so i will just switch to ranged weapons and chill.
i think we are getting sidetracked, discussing GWW vs IH is fairly pointless since as you noted its a free buff, no harm in casting it, im saying that Belm and CS are pointless, and in that hypothetical run-away scenario you wouldnt get more attacks with it anyway and if the enemy is pinned down - gww time, gww and ih are not mutually exclusive, although gww does bring the advantage of equipping the shield for more resistances, just plain dragon shield from Windspear hills for example, tons of resistances.
Keep going, guys! I'm thoroughly enjoying this argument/discussion/comparison of IH vs. GWW. In a sense that the finer points come out to play.
MY problem with IH has always mostly been that while it's useful for fighters, I don't see it as productive to have my mage/sorcerer doing it. They have better things to do than cast IH on the warrior guys. When I have a FM, they always cast IH as their 2nd spell, but on my main spellcaster I see it as a waste of rounds. My POV is mostly BP2 atm, since I'm still playing that a lot.
I think we've run out of new points to make regarding IH/GWW, though I did learn a lot so far. I never thought of using SI: Alteration to block Teleport Field... I might not end up using it, since I use ranged weapons so much, but it's good to know.
Critical Strike does have some uses, though I'm not fond of it myself. I've found that it works terribly well for backstabbing, and it lets you get in guaranteed hits against low AC enemies using weapons you're not proficient with. Likewise, GWW lets you get lots of APR with weapons you're not proficient with.
An important point I've heard in the past is that Kensais lose a lot of DPS due to their item restrictions. A Kensai can't use Vhailor's Helm, and their damage output is much lower because of it.
Comments
Cant even say how useful the protection from undead scrolls are. I've always liked being able to pop a potion of power and storm giant, nothing quite like having 400 hp and -15 thac0 or better.
It's the main reason i find most fighter HLA's so useless (barring whirlwind),
Statistically Club of Detonation hits the hardest at 19 average damage, but as many monsters have high fire resist in reality that is significantly less.
But I also like to run spell immunity abj which prevents dispell and maze/imprisonment. Pretty nice with improved invis as well +4 thac0 +4 ac.
haste can be dispelled
critical strike with tob thac0 is just 5% dps boost.
foebane can be resisted
@Roller12: You're underestimating Belm here. There's a reason people talk about it so much. I'm a fan of Belm myself, so I've got a lot of praise for it.
Let's say a mod introduces a new weapon to the game. This weapon has a unique ability: you can turn it into Celestial Fury, Jhor the Bleeder, Flail of Ages, Foebane, or any other single-handed melee weapon, and it will have all the offensive powers of the original. The only restriction is that it can only duplicate weapons you've come across. On top of that, this weapon deals 2 more damage than the original on average per hit... or sometimes more than 2. Maybe it does 5 more damage. It's variable like that. But, no matter what weapons you've got, it always deals more damage than any other weapon you possess. What would you think of this item? Wouldn't it seem ridiculously overpowered?
Well, that weapon is Belm.
The thing about Belm is not simply that it gives you an extra APR. It's that it gives you an extra APR with any one-handed weapon. Same goes for Kundane, the Scarlet Ninja-to, and the Shadow Thief Dagger.
Let's say you're dual-wielding the Axe of the Unyielding and the Flail of Ages. Which one goes in your main hand? That's the most powerful one, right? They're not quite equally useful, so you pick the stronger one to put in your main hand. You get 3 APR with the stronger weapon, and 1 APR with the weaker, for a total of 4.
What if you dual-wield with Belm instead? Then you get 4 APR with the stronger weapon, and another 1 APR with a weaker one, for a total of 5.
Let's put a number value on it, and let's pick the value which does the least to support my claim. Let's say the axe is worth 1,000 (the units are abstract), the flail is worth 1,001, and the scimitar itself is worth... nothing, because the enemy is immune to +2 weapons.
In that case, you've got the Belm+Flail setup, with a value of 4,004 (4*1,001+1*0), and the Belm+Axe setup, with a value of 4,003 (3*1,001+1*1,000). Even if the scimitar itself is useless, and the axe and flail are near-equal in value, Belm is still the superior off hand weapon, because it adds to the strongest weapon you've got.
There aren't many times when another off hand weapon would be superior to Belm. One example is if there's a defensive effect you need (say, immunities from Arbane's Sword, or spell slot bonuses from Dak'kon's Zerth Blade). Another would be if your APR is high and/or your base damage is low, in which case Crom Faeyr would give more damage output overall. A third example would be if you're using GWW, at which point APR bonuses no longer matter. But most of the time, GWW will not be active on your character, even if you dedicate all of your HLAs to GWW, simply because GWW arrives so late and wears off so quickly. Except for very rare and very short periods of time, Belm will grant more offensive power than almost any alternative, at least if we're talking about dual-wielding.
Also, the Axe of the Unyielding is not a good example of a solid alternative to Belm--the non-upgraded +3 version is at the bottom of Watcher's Keep, and getting the +5 version occurs even later in ToB. The Axe of the Unyielding is only available for about 10% of the game. Cut all of its bonuses by 90%, and that gives you an indication of how useful the weapon actually is over the course of the adventure. The same applies to a lesser extent to Crom Faeyr: Crom Faeyr is only available after the Underdark, late in SoA. Also, Crom Faeyr's STR bonus is equal to the sum of its components: the Gauntlets of Ogre Power and Girdle of Frost Giant Strength give the +7 to hit and +14 to damage that Crom itself gives. Often, those items are better off on their own, and it's more practical not to forge Crom in the first place.
Here are my numbers. I count elemental stuff, and assume the user has 19 STR but no proficiencies, for simplicity's sake. Items full upgraded unless otherwise specified:
Foebane: 22.5
Angurvadal: 22
Spectral Brand: 19
Storm Star: 20 (2.625 average from Chain Lightning, save for half)
Crom: 22
FoA +5: 26.5
FoA + 3: 17.5
FoA +4: 19.5
Celestial Fury: 16.5 (5% chance 20 electrical damage, easy to forget)
Hindo's Doom: 16.5
Ice Star: 18.5
Axe of the Unyielding: 16.5
Usuno's Blade: 16.95 (10% 1d10 electrical)
Purifier: 16
Blackrazor: 14.5
So Crom and Foebane are actually the most damaging mainhand weapons, if we specifically bar out using GWW. Something a Kensai -> Mage might do.
GWW is not a limited resource. How to get unlimited GWW? Wish/renew.
The reason why everyone is using dualwield even with GWW is because different weapons add different bonuses. Crom and belm only have 25str. Crom and the axe have 25str and regeneration. Since both bonuses apply, they work best together. So in that example Crom is 1000 hammers and Axe is 1000 nails. Doubling one at the expense of another is detrimental in any case.
Its a good chapter 2 weapon. In chapter 3 or so you can already use FoA+DoE or the plethora of other +3 weapons rendering Belm obsolete. Although there probably does exist a scenario where the party is just full of dual-wielders then it still has a place if one would spend proficiency points in scimitars just for that.
I've double-checked my math and it turns out that Crom Faeyr actually adds more damage per round than Belm in certain situations. I was wrong. Basically, Crom Faeyr adds the most damage from Chapter 6 to mid-game ToB. From chapters 1-5, and after getting the Girdle of Fire Giant Strength, Belm adds more. It varies a little even then, depending on how strong the other weapon is (Belm adds more to powerful weapons; Crom adds more to weaker weapons).
Also, Wish-resting is not very reliable. You have about a 10% chance per casting of getting a Wish-rest (same chance for a party-wide Improved Haste, by the way). IH will outlast GWW unless you get very lucky with Wish.
I only have two points: Belm adds more damage when dual-wielding than any other weapon, except for Crom Faeyr (and Belm's advantage grows larger when using high-damage weapons). GWW renders Belm obsolete, but IH is easier to get than GWW and will last much longer. I'm not saying Belm is ideal in all circumstances for all purposes; I'm saying it excels at damage output.
Kundane.
FoA+5 is 1d6+16 = 19.5 together with crom and gww that would be (19.5+14)*10=335 damage/round
Foebane+Belm+IH+str22 from a fire giant girlde would be (12.5+10)*8+(6.5+10)*2=213damage/round
FoA+5 @ 22 str @ GWW = (19.5+10) *10 = 295
Crom+Belm+IH+str22 is (13+14)*8+(6.5+14)*2=216+41=257
335 > 295 >257 > 213
Even foa+shield wins.
FoA still is the clear winner, just toggle weapons b4 you haste then swap back. Storm star is the next best, followed by foebane. Looking at dps anyways.
If you dont use str pots Crom wins, FOA slow is a beast though because it stacks.
hypothetically Critical strike is an interesting ability i agree, just not in bg2 campaign.
A better more fair case would be discussing a fighter13->X dual class case who doesnt get access to fighter HLAs, i admit i kinda sidetracked the discussion in favor of GWW.
In that case a grandmaster with +0.5 apr gauntlets dualwielding anything will get 10 apr anyway, unless we consider vanilla game where grandmastery didnt grant bonus attacks. In that case i dont know, havent done the number crunch on that scenario.
So my number for Crom was wrong. And I forgot to mention Foebane (also 2d4 base), since I removed mention of it during editing. Crom should be 27 base, or 29 assuming two pips in hammers: 2d4(base)+3(enchantment)+14(STR)+5(electrical)+2(proficiencies)=29.
If we want to maximize damage and care about nothing else, we've got several possibilities.
We could have a level 39 Kensai use Kai followed by GWW. Kai does max damage for 10 seconds, and GWW occurs 6 seconds later, so the Kensai gets 4 normal attacks, plus 6 attacks boosted by Kai. That means 5 average damage for 1d6 weapons or 6.6 for 1d8 weapons.
Ixil's Spike +6:
1d6+6 base damage, with an additional 3d6+15 damage on a failed save vs. death (25% chance against a normal late game enemy with a base 6 save vs. death). With 24 STR from Hell and the Girdle of Fire Giant Strength (they stack at least in vanilla), a +13 Kensai bonus at level 39, maxed proficiencies (+3 for spears, and +1 for two-handed weapons), he or she would do
(5+3+13+12+6+1)*10+(3.5+5+3.5+5+3.5+5)*0.25*10=463.75 damage. But 42.5 of that would be damage outside of that round, since 2d6+10 of the 3d6+15 happens in the next two rounds. Bolstered by a party member's Greater Malison and Doom, the damage would be 540.25, with 92.5 damage only happening in the next two rounds.
Flail of Ages +5:
1d6+6 base damage, with an additional 10 from the elemental damage, no save, assuming the enemy is vulnerable to all of the elements. With the same bonuses, the Flail of Ages +5 would do (5+6+3+13+12)*10+(10*10)=490 damage. Since Single-Handed Weapon Style improves critical hit rolls by 1, we can add 5% to the physical damage, which makes a total of 509.5 damage, assuming the enemy is vulnerable to critical hits.
What about using IH with Critical Strike, assuming an enemy vulnerable to critical hits and is not disabled (I think critical hits don't happen against disabled targets, like in IWD2)? Like before, we use a Kensai, but this time we combine FoA +5 with Belm.
The main hand, FoA, has 8 attacks per round, and the non-elemental damage is multiplied by 2. This means the main hand does (5+6+13+3+12)*8*2+(10*8) damage, and the off hand, Belm, does (6.6+2+13+3+12)*2*2, for a total of 844.
What about backstabbing with Staff of the Ram with a Kensai(21)->Thief, assuming an enemy vulnerable to backstabs?
We use GWW for our APR and a Mislead scroll for backstabbing. Since STR bonuses are calculated after backstab multipliers, and this Kensai only gets +7 to damage from its kit, instead of 13, our formula is (5+12+3+7)*10*5+(12*10)=1,470 damage.
What if we're willing to maximize damage using any means necessary? Let's assume a party for this one, just to see what it looks like.
We use level 40 Blades with the Improved Bard Song, each of which uses the Wand of Lightning trick to summon 6 Mislead clones per 6th-level spell slots. Each Bard has 5 such spell slots, and one of them gets an extra from the Ring of Wizardry, but one slot must be expended on Improved Haste for every bard without the Bracers of Blinding Strike or Amulet of Cheetah Speed. The bard with the ring and either the bracers or amulet conjures a Simulacrum via Vhailor's Helm for a level 24 clone with 4 such slots. Between the 7 of them, they conjure 181 Mislead clones and one Simulacrum, each of which sings a song while the Blades attack using Minute Meteors with Offensive Spin and Improved Haste active, and one of them wears the Gauntlets of Extraordinary Expertise. As a party, they deal (3+3+3+2+2+211*4)*10+(3+3+3+2+2+181*4)*10+(3+3+3+2+181*4)*10*5=44,120 damage per round. If it's just one bard acting on its own, the bard can only summon 48 clones, and does (3+3+3+2+2+192)*10=2,050 damage per round.
So, if the target is immune to critical strikes and backstabs, a Kensai using the Flail of Ages with GWW does the most damage in one round. If we count damage in the next two rounds, then Ixil's Spike does more.
If the target is vulnerable to critical strikes but not backstab, a Kensai using the Flail of Ages and Belm with Improved Haste and Critical Strike does the most damage.
If the target is vulnerable to backstab and we're willing to use a Mislead scroll, a Kensai/Thief dualed at level 21 using GWW and the Staff of the Ram does the most damage.
If we're willing to use song stacking, a Blade with Minute Meteors and Improved Haste does the most damage.
For FoA+Crom
Foa +5: 1d6+6+10=19.5
grandmastery: 5
crom25str: 14
gauntlets:2
(kensai lvl40 bonus: 13-2(no gauntlets))
=40.5 (51.5 for kensai)
40.5*10gww*0.95criticalmiss=385 damage/round (489 for kensai)
385(489)/round is the amount an unbuffed generic GWW fighter (kensai) can unleash at any time on anyone within reach in any party constellation. This is straight dps.
Of course it gets difficult to calculate dps with buffs involved which is why it can get misleading, for example that clone exploit army, if it takes longer than than 4 rounds to summon it, then a fighter still wins, assuming we want to deal 2k damage and the enemy doesnt interrupt the summoning "ritual" haha. :-D And same goes for IH, who is gonna cast that and then CS and Kai even, even if we assume that something isnt immune to criticals and isnt immune to +2 enchantment, thats 2 prep rounds already, so real dps will be half of that in the first round, or even 1/4 if a mob is immune to both criticals and enchantment and will be (38.5base*8apr/2preprounds)=
154dps with that Belm setup. In other words less than half the dps of the GWW, even using an exploit to get that FoA+5 hasted, and by the time it catches up, the battle is over.
Backstab immunity, critical hit immunity, innate weapon immunity, spell-based weapon immunity, Stoneskin, Teleport Field, movement, disablers, damage resistances, interruption, buffing preferences, dispel magic, instant death effects, potion use, spellcasting, Maze, weapon availability over the course of the game, spell availability over the course of the game, level progression, shifting priorities in-combat, and various other factors could render both of our arguments completely invalid.
If you don't pre-buff, GWW is definitely better for you. I pre-buff, since I do no-reload runs with magic-heavy parties and SCS2 enemies pre-buffing as well, so IH doesn't cost me a round. Ultimately, these things are situation-dependent.
Certainly in vanilla it is probably less tedious to just throw your characters at 99% of encounters and be quite confident of the outcome with minimal strategy or planning. Worst case is a reload.
On the other hand, SCS no reload is a completely different experience.
DPS makes very little difference in an SCS run. Enemies run away and shield themselves much more easily (Teleport Field pops up very often), and they use a lot better weapon immunity spells. Also, prebuffing becomes more valuable because the enemy uses disablers much more effectively. Since fights drag on much longer, and there will be many rounds where extra DPS is completely meaningless (GWW is negated by PFMW and disablers, and both is extremely common in SCS), raw damage doesn't much help, and sustainable APR is far more important. When the enemy instantly replaces its weapon immunities, short-duration combat buffs don't help much. When the enemy instantly replaces its Stoneskins, high damage output doesn't help much--APR does.
What would you do if an enemy activated GWW? When I see an enemy use that ability, I use PFMW, Teleport Field, Invisibility, or I just walk away for a few seconds. The net result? GWW doesn't affect my party at all. Wouldn't you do the same? Wouldn't you expect an intelligent enemy in SCS to do the same?
It's true that IH can be dispelled. That's why you don't cast it until after the enemy uses Remove Magic. Nor does IH necessarily take away rounds from your attacking, because your mage, not your fighter, casts it.
Stunlocked enemies dont run away. And they will be stunlocked with GWW. Teleport field is a problem, but as you said if its up, there is no need to use GWW, and unlike IH it doesnt have a duration to run out, so just wait it out, but its not even needed because Teleport Field can be protected against, so just ignore it and whack that caster on the head.
In short the mentioned things mostly dont affect gww performance.
And to clear up any possible confusion, of course i prebuff lol, its just not particularity needed with GWW beyond the bare basics, and i wouldnt play plain fighters in a no-reload game to begin with, and likely you didnt either. Its a fairly biased point, i dont have to defend pure fighters in a no-reload scenario, since we were discussing weapon dps!
I would advise to try Tactics for a challenge. It features things like Devas in Irenicus dungeon, which is a fairly challenging adventure. I tried SCS once it was pathetically easy and tedious to say the least.
[spoiler]
First, normal weapons don't stunlock or deal elemental damage. Only Firetooth with normal bolts can bypass both Stoneskin and PFMW, but the fire damage is blocked by spell protections, as it strikes as a level 6 spell. Also, in SCS, enemies come prebuffed with damage immunities, which prevents disruption if the caster is immune to the damage, unlike in the original game. Flail of Ages +3 will do zero damage in most cases against an enemy mage in SCS. To a lesser extent, the same applies to FoA +4 and FoA +5.
Second, Improved Haste renders a fighter equally capable of disabling or disrupting as a fighter with GWW. Why is this? This is because you can reach the same 10 APR with normal weapons by using normal darts or dual-wielding the Shadow Thief Dagger with a normal weapon. That lets you bypass PFMW, and does so just as well as GWW. What about Stoneskin? Improved Haste with Belm grants 8 APR with FoA. If the enemy is vulnerable to FoA, 8 APR will disrupt spells just as reliably as 10 APR.
Even if you have a means of getting around the enemy's defenses, Improved Haste and speed weapons work as well as GWW--GWW does not offer a special advantage in most cases. I can't make heads or tails of this paragraph. Teleport Field doesn't have a duration? Yes it does; it lasts 10 rounds and activates once every 6 seconds. Because it has no duration, you can just wait it out? Yes, you can wait it out, but only because it does have a duration. You don't need to wait out Teleport because it can be protected against? No it can't; Teleport Field cannot be protected against via any means. It's a level 0 effect (Globe of Invulnerability will not block it) that bypasses MR and offers no save. Only Otiluke's Resilient Sphere can block its effects. Nor is there any way of getting immunity to the opcode. Nor will the enemy be immune to it; only Melissan has immunity to Teleport Field. You can't ignore it; it will rob you of APR irrespective of the situation unless you're using missile weapons.
The difference is that Improved Haste lets you keep your high APR even after PFMW, Teleport Field, or Invisibility wear off. It also remains for longer than the enemy can run away. GWW runs out easier, so smart enemies have more means of foiling it. My original point was that using IH offers more sustainable damage. Fifteen to 28 rounds of 6, 8, or 10 attacks means more APR and damage than ~5 rounds of 10 attacks. Except we are not the AI. Are you comparing GWW efficiency based on what the AI does?
SCS enemies use PFMW, Teleport Field, Invisibility, and also will walk away. This is common SCS behavior, not just something I do. It's one of the reasons I like SCS: the enemies actually try to protect themselves. Your experience might be different if your SCS install didn't involve prebuffing. In my install, an SCS mage comes prebuffed with stuff like Stoneskin, Protection from Fire, Protection from Cold, Protection from Electricity, Protection from Acid, Globe of Invulnerability, Spell Shield, Fire Shield (both kinds), SI: Abjuration, SI: Divination, Improved Invisibility, Spell Turning, and/or PFMW or Absolute Immunity (which in SCS blocks all weapons regardless of enchantment). They'll also throw out Teleport Field sometimes. On top of that, they will renew some of these defenses if debuffed, meaning you need good timing with GWW if you don't want 10 "Weapon Ineffective" messages in a row. I've found GWW is most useful when PFMW is gone but Stoneskins remain, since it lets me cut through Stoneskins using any weapon. But that's for debuffing or disabling, not so much for damage.
I play with SCS, and usually play with Tactics installed as well (SCS has some options which add better scripts to Tactics enemies). If you stick with Tactics but not SCS, it's not surprising that the enemy doesn't try to foil your GWW.
[/spoiler]
Teleport to the resque
GWW doesnt have a duration, everything else does so we can just wait it out. Its generally a fairly easy way to beat mages even early in the game, just hit&run with someone with good saves and make them waste their spells on nothing. (like the lich in the City Gates)
Teleport field can be protected against with Spell immunity:Alteration I cant imagine the pain you had to endure playing like that
If the enemy is hellbent on running away - its not doing anything, so i will just switch to ranged weapons and chill.
i think we are getting sidetracked, discussing GWW vs IH is fairly pointless since as you noted its a free buff, no harm in casting it, im saying that Belm and CS are pointless, and in that hypothetical run-away scenario you wouldnt get more attacks with it anyway and if the enemy is pinned down - gww time, gww and ih are not mutually exclusive, although gww does bring the advantage of equipping the shield for more resistances, just plain dragon shield from Windspear hills for example, tons of resistances.
MY problem with IH has always mostly been that while it's useful for fighters, I don't see it as productive to have my mage/sorcerer doing it. They have better things to do than cast IH on the warrior guys. When I have a FM, they always cast IH as their 2nd spell, but on my main spellcaster I see it as a waste of rounds. My POV is mostly BP2 atm, since I'm still playing that a lot.
Critical Strike does have some uses, though I'm not fond of it myself. I've found that it works terribly well for backstabbing, and it lets you get in guaranteed hits against low AC enemies using weapons you're not proficient with. Likewise, GWW lets you get lots of APR with weapons you're not proficient with.
An important point I've heard in the past is that Kensais lose a lot of DPS due to their item restrictions. A Kensai can't use Vhailor's Helm, and their damage output is much lower because of it.