Haer'dalis or Jan: who fits the evil party better?

BanArd

I'm stoked to play SCS for the first time with the evil party. Charname will be a half-elven neutral evil Swashbuckler or Blade, depending on who gets to be the 5th member. Last slot will rotate between npc quests, Yoshimo and Mr. ToB.

Which one of these two fits better, in terms of utility and banter (no spoilers here please)? Haer'dalis gets bonus points for being a single class just like charname and the others.

billbisco

Jan is a Mage and gets 9th level arcane spells. He is by default more powerful and versatile. You can with the right spells turn Jan into a far better tank than Haer'Dalis ever could be.

dockaboomski

Both are equally good for an evil party, but for banter particularly, I'd pick Jan. Overall it depends on what role your character will be playing, and so with a melee Swashbuckler Jan would fit better, as Haer'Dalis is more suited to melee. Of course, you could pick Haer'Dalis for SoA, and then use Jan in ToB. Or sacrifice the rotation slot and use Haer'Dalis after finishing the NPC quests and ditch him in ToB.

Are you playing normal BG2 or the EE? Because in the EE, contrary to what @billbisco said, you can't get level 9 spells unless you have 18 Int.

abacus

dockaboomski said:

Both are equally good for an evil party, but for banter particularly, I'd pick Jan. Overall it depends on what role your character will be playing, and so with a melee Swashbuckler Jan would fit better, as Haer'Dalis is more suited to melee. Of course, you could pick Haer'Dalis for SoA, and then use Jan in ToB. Or sacrifice the rotation slot and use Haer'Dalis after finishing the NPC quests and ditch him in ToB.

Are you playing normal BG2 or the EE? Because in the EE, contrary to what @billbisco said, you can't get level 9 spells unless you have 18 Int.

Swig a potion when you want to learn, and you'll be fine... The intelligence requirement only affects learning spells, not having the slots to subsequently cast them.

Wowo

If you have a read of @semiticgod's party of spiders thread you can learn a lot about just what Jan and Haer are capable of in an SCS run.

Certainly Jan is better but Haer has some interesting strategies available with HLA song and clones.

semiticgoddess

Thank you, @Wowo.

The Party of Spiders thread can be found here:
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/38312/the-party-of-spiders-no-reload-scs2-run/p1
It talks a lot more about Jan than Haer'dalis. Jan is in the party for the whole game; Haer'dalis is mostly restricted to ToB and late-game SoA.

Speaking in general... and from a strictly non-RP, powergamey standpoint... Jan profits immensely from micromanagement, and his flashers are potentially game-breaking. He is the most versatile NPC in the game, and his class and items open up many excellent options. Haer'dalis is much lower-maintenance, and though he doesn't have as many weird tricks up his sleeve, he's a marvelous melee tank and will give a major boost to the party's attack power at epic levels.

If you want a versatile toolkit character, or a goofy gnome, go with Jan. If you want a sturdy fighter, or a flamboyant bard, go with Haer'dalis.

shawne

Personality-wise, Haer'Dalis is a more appropriate fit - Jan plays a comic relief role, but in the Evil party that job already belongs to Edwin.

abacus

shawne said:

Personality-wise, Haer'Dalis is a more appropriate fit - Jan plays a comic relief role, but in the Evil party that job already belongs to Edwin.

Yeah, I'd go with that... H'D has a slightly more amoral vibe, whilst Jan is more happy-go-lucky but fundamentally decent underneath.

Aramintai

Haer'Dalis is a member of the Doomguard faction - they see decay, entrophy and chaos of everything in the multiverse as an inevitable and good thing, and have no qualms about enforcing this belief when needed to hasten the process. So I guess he's more suitable for an evil party, as evil characters tend to be more destructive in general.
Jan, on the other hand, is just an eccentric gnome.

Yannir

billbisco said:

You can with the right spells turn Jan into a far better tank than Haer'Dalis ever could be.

I strongly disagree with this. Spells above and beyond level 6 have almost no impact on tanking. The only exception really are the better triggers but you can live without them since you'll mostly just need Stoneskin+Defensive Spin anyway.

Anything else worth mentioning can be circumvented with gear (Spell Trap via Staff of the Magi, Simulacrum via Vhailor's Helm...) because HD is a rogue-class and gets their HLA's (UAI). Jan is too but I wouldn't discount IBS either.

There are other reasons why you would pick Jan over Haer, or vice versa, but tanking really isn't one of them.

semiticgoddess

@Yannir: The point is moot. Jan gets more spells from level 1-6 than Haer'dalis does, as well as level 7-9 spells. If the important tanking spells are below level 7, Jan still gets more of them.

I consider Haer'dalis to be the better tank anyway because of his AC, but Jan does have the advantage in saving throws and tanking spells.

Aramintai

Hmm, I never looked at Haer'Dalis as a tank, but he can be a great front line damage dealer and support mage. His kit abilities are very helpful for that as well. He does need some defensive spells to join the front line though, just like any fighter-mages, most of which are indeed of 1-6 level.

Yannir

@semiticgod On principle, you are correct but that doesn't make my point moot. It was never mentioned in the comment I was replying to. That comment mentioned higher level spells making Jan a better tank, which is simply incorrect.



On top of AC and defensive spin, what makes Haer a better tank, is he also has the tiefling's elemental resistances. Which aren't great as themselves but they are easier to max out. He also gets 3 pips in 2-weapon fighting, and specializations in bladed weapons. Which makes him a lot better melee than Jan.

As for spells, Jan does get more of them, and he gets to better spell levels as well eventually. That alone should be a huge argument.

What they have in common are the spells until level 6. Haer actually has a larger selection since Jan misses out on Necromancy.

semiticgoddess

Good point on Necromancy. Vampiric Touch is a major boost for mages, especially since it has a habit of granting twice, thrice, or even four times as much HP as it's supposed to, late in the game. A Cleric/Mage of mine ended up with over 200 HP on more than one occasion thanks to Vampiric Touch, while Jan was stuck with less than 100 even at the Throne of Bhaal.

DragonKing

Honestly, when I played with Jan, nothing about him actually screamed evil. In fact he seemed against whenever I did something evil, and loved when I did good.

Jasko

HaerDalis for an evil party definitely.. he seems a bit like Gann from NWN MotB... like if you're evil and kill that farmer girl who is stuck in a dream, Gann seems indifferent whether she lives or dies. That's kinda how I see HaerDalis. HaerDalis rocks tho for downing enemies... Chaos Blade and Kundane all the way baby, sapping dexterity, making enemies easier to hit... great weapon, just like the Answerer +4.

T2av

Jan, haer'dalis is a fruity bard

Grum

Haer'Dalis is one of the Doom Guard.

"Ultimately, the beliefs of the Doomguard come down to one fact: everything ends. No matter how great a creation you can construct, it's sure not to last eternally. Even the planes themselves will eventually crumble over the weight of time; look at the shifts of the Inner Planes, after all, or the state of Pelion. It cannot be stopped, only delayed, and there's no arguing with that fact. So why argue with it; instead, one should embrace it, and acknowledge that all things are passing."

http://www.rilmani.org/timaresh/Doomguard

He fits an evil party better than Jan. Heck, Haer'Dalis, when he romances Aerie, mentions how the destruction of Saradush was beautiful. So why not bring someone like him into your group of murderhobos?