@NineCoronas , if you have a manual from a box set, you're probably playing vanilla and not EE? The changes on slings were only made for the EE-version of BG2, AFAIK.
I play all four versions, because there are stills mods I absolutely love not available for EE's. I didn't notice anything when playing Enhanced Edition because I hardly use slings, ever.
There are reasons to have a pure cleric, and a cleric of helm will be able to deal a ton of damage with an APR of 3.
Respectable damage maybe, with Strength buffs behind it, but the Seeking Sword is 2d4 damage plus Strength. Even with 3 APR, that's not phenomenal. Plus, since you can't cast with it out, so you're limited to pre-buffing when you want to use it, and a multi or dual can pre-buff just as well while getting multiple APR with a better weapon.
I agree. I've played a Priest of Helm through the series. I like Seeking Sword in BGEE but in BG2EE the loss of spells makes it not worth it.
There are reasons to have a pure cleric, and a cleric of helm will be able to deal a ton of damage with an APR of 3.
Respectable damage maybe, with Strength buffs behind it, but the Seeking Sword is 2d4 damage plus Strength. Even with 3 APR, that's not phenomenal. Plus, since you can't cast with it out, so you're limited to pre-buffing when you want to use it, and a multi or dual can pre-buff just as well while getting multiple APR with a better weapon.
I agree. I've played a Priest of Helm through the series. I like Seeking Sword in BGEE but in BG2EE the loss of spells makes it not worth it.
That is the brilliant thing with Seeking Sword, it's a choice you have. Do you want to focus on casting spells in this fight, or rather have another awesome tank that can dish out good damage with great Thac0. In BG:EE it's ridiculously good and lets you solo ankhegs at level 3 without worrying about dying. Nothing in BG:EE can compare to the +4 Thac0 and 3 APR, especially not right out of candlekeep.
The issue isn't with it in BGEE but rather BG2EE (so Ankheg fighting isn't really relevant). Spell usage dominates BG2EE. Basically by casting Seeking Sword you are giving up most of a clerics strengths, as well as your ability to do any kind of elemental damage (for stopping spellcasting) or on hit effect (Flail of Ages, improved Mace of Disruption, etc), in order to do more melee damage (any cleric with buffs can already do lots of this). By itself this would be fine if there wasn't already a single class cleric alternative, but unfortunately there is (the Priest of Lathander). So it becomes a redundant kit in BG2EE.
The issue isn't with it in BGEE but rather BG2EE (so Ankheg fighting isn't really relevant). Spell usage dominates BG2EE. Basically by casting Seeking Sword you are giving up most of a clerics strengths, as well as your ability to do any kind of elemental damage (for stopping spellcasting) or on hit effect (Flail of Ages, improved Mace of Disruption, etc), in order to do more melee damage (any cleric with buffs can already do lots of this). By itself this would be fine if there wasn't already a single class cleric alternative, but unfortunately there is (the Priest of Lathander). So it becomes a redundant kit in BG2EE.
Any cleric with buffs? You mean swinging FoA with 1 APR . (2 if you want to dual wield with only * in dual wielding)The only other cleric that can actually deal decent damage in melee is Lathander.
And giving up most of the clerics strength? The clerics main strength is buffing, and you can do all of that before combat and using your seeking sword. The few spells you'll cast in combat are damage based or hold spells, you'll not be healing as potions and rod of resurrection does that so much better. Second strength of the Cleric? Summoning creatures, something you should be doing right BEFORE combat, meaning before you use your Sword.
So to put this into a shorter text.
1.) Prebuff your entire party 2.) Summon your creatures 3.) Summon Seeking Sword and go to town like a fighter with better survivability and equal damage (until level 13+ and then it's still awesome damage).
If we were talking about an Arcane Caster i'll agree, but there aren't that many divine spells you'll cast during combat, so you're not losing out on that much.
Elemental damage? If you're running with a party someone else can handle that, if you're not running with a party then you'll still easily be able to handle the situation without elemental damage.
The Priest of Helm isn't just a cleric, he is more than that.
+ Single class cleric, faster leveling. + Better turn undead ability (read above) + More divine spells
What you're gaining by playing the Priest of Helm is the ability to fight very proficiently in melee combat. So you're gaining the faster leveling and more powerful spells of the single class cleric, while still having the option to deal good damage and reach 3 APR. You're also not in need of any super powerful weapons, so that FoA can be given to someone else in your party.
If you're calling the Priest of Helm redundant then you're calling many single classes and most kits redundant.
Why would you ever pick a single class when you can pick a multi or dual class? They are redundant except a few (Wizard, Sorcerer, Berserker).
The Priest of Helm is an awesome kit that lets you fight very well in melee while being a single class cleric and gaining all the benefits from that. You get a magical sword from the start (2d4) that gives you +4 thac0 and lets you hit almost all creatures in the game.
I love the Avenger druid as well, is he as powerful as the C/R? No, but he gains certain awesome arcane spells and shape shifting abilities that will let him play in a different way.
[Edited]: BG2:EE isn't just the ToB part, it's also the SoA part and in most of BG2:EE you're using +2 to +3 weapons. There are certain classes that are really powerful early on and fall of a bit in the late game, these aren't bad at all, they can make the game much easier and then once you reach end game you can carry the game with someone else. Even when you reach ToB and the Sword of Seeking isn't that powerful anymore, you'll have a cleric with a ton of divine spells to fall back on, so at no point is that redundant. What the Priest of Helm does give you is someone incredible powerful in BG:EE while being awesome in BG2:EE early and mid game, efficient in end game but will be mostly on spell casting duty at that point.
I only ever play No-reload games nowaday, and it's crucial in my games to be able to have a strong start-mid game and he does that for me, once i reach end game I can have some of my other characters take up the front while still finding my Priest of Helm useful with other things.
My only issue with Seeking Sword is that it lasts longer the higher level the cleric is, which wouldn't be a problem normally except you can't dispel it voluntarily, unless you have another caster dispel you which obviously risks losing all those other pre-buffs. By level 20, that is your cleric being silenced for no less than two turns. Need a Heal during that time? Or your buffs ran out? You're stuffed, at least if that was your only cleric. Yes, sometimes you want a fighter more than you want a cleric, and being able to switch on the fly is pretty awesome, but not being able to get rid of the silence when you really need it is a major pain.
My only issue with Seeking Sword is that it lasts longer the higher level the cleric is, which wouldn't be a problem normally except you can't dispel it voluntarily, unless you have another caster dispel you which obviously risks losing all those other pre-buffs. By level 20, that is your cleric being silenced for no less than two turns. Need a Heal during that time? Or your buffs ran out? You're stuffed, at least if that was your only cleric. Yes, sometimes you want a fighter more than you want a cleric, and being able to switch on the fly is pretty awesome, but not being able to get rid of the silence when you really need it is a major pain.
I do agree with some of the things you're saying, but most buffs also have a longer duration the higher level you are, so they won't be running out. I very rarely use my clerics in combat to heal, between potions and in BG2:EE the awesome rod of resurrection, I'm not spending my time casting a healing spell that will fail if i get hit by an AoE attack or spell. The spells I'm missing the most are damage spells (Holy smite, Flame strike) and control spells (Silence, hold, confuse) but those tend to be spells i'll throw out before changing to my Seeking Sword. No one is forcing you to use your sword the moment you start fighting, sometimes it's worth hanging back and only use it once the enemy are softened up or under control.
It is possible to remove the Sword of Seeking if you absolutely need it, but yet to this day I haven't gotten into such a situation, even while playing solo SCS. And if someone dispel your buffs, they also remove your sword which in return gives you the option to cast those buffs again.
If they removed the silence part of it, the kit would put all the others to shame and have no disadvantages.
Any cleric with buffs? You mean swinging FoA with 1 APR . (2 if you want to dual wield with only * in dual wielding)The only other cleric that can actually deal decent damage in melee is Lathander.
Even a pretty basic setup with a cleric in SoA can net you 70 damage/round (with say flail of ages +3 and Ashideena along with strength boosting spells). Any cleric with dual wielding and haste gets 3 APR after all. Getting Improved Haste will boost that up closer to 100 damage/round. Most enemies in SoA don't have that much health. Between yourself and the rest of your party (who themselves are doing quite a bit of damage) it just doesn't make much sense to use an ability that causes you to lose out on so many spells (based on your own list).
Dispel Magic Holy smite Zone of Sweet air (this one is of particular note since with your sword active a cloud effect is likely to expire about the same time or sooner than your sword will. So you may end up waiting a minute just to save or rest) Defensive Harmony (duration is very short) Flame Strike Bolt of Glory False Dawn Wondrous Recall Earthquake (enemies are only knocked out for 4 rounds so it doesn't make much sense to waste a round buffing afterwords) Finger of death Regeneration (between your own buffs and it its duration is going to be pretty short) Sunray Symbol death/fear/stun Energy blades Implosion
And giving up most of the clerics strength? The clerics main strength is buffing
A clerics greater strength is its versatility. Its a buffer, summoner, damage dealer, damage absorber and debuffer. By casting Seeking Sword you are putting your character in the position where going forward until its duration expires (or its dispelled) you are losing out on a lot of functionality in favour of gaining damage dealing that you never really needed. When it comes to things like your inability to cast Dispel Magic and Zone of Sweet Air it becomes particularly inconvenient.
If you're calling the Priest of Helm redundant then you're calling many single classes and most kits redundant.
Nope just calling the Priest of Helm redundant in BG2EE. A single casting of Boon of Lathander along with the usual buffs and good cleric weapons probably makes the damages pretty close (and you can technically stack Boon of Lathander with itself so as a kit it would actually prove to be even more damaging). So it becomes redundant.
Dual wielding gives you 2 APR, 3 with haste, 4 with improved haste. Sword of Seeking is 3 APR, 4 with haste and 6 with Improved haste, not to mention that you're able to wield a shield as well. Other than that I'll just have to disagree with you, and leave it at that
Dual wielding gives you 2 APR, 3 with haste, 4 with improved haste. Sword of Seeking is 3 APR, 4 with haste and 6 with Improved haste, not to mention that you're able to wield a shield as well. Other than that I'll just have to disagree with you, and leave it at that
Any paladin can do better than that in BG2 and will have exactly the same buffs. And better saving throws to boot. And holy avengers. And other awesomeness.
Dual wielding gives you 2 APR, 3 with haste, 4 with improved haste. Sword of Seeking is 3 APR, 4 with haste and 6 with Improved haste, not to mention that you're able to wield a shield as well. Other than that I'll just have to disagree with you, and leave it at that
Any paladin can do better than that in BG2 and will have exactly the same buffs. And better saving throws to boot. And holy avengers. And other awesomeness.
Except they can't have the same buffs, the best cleric buffs (Chaotic Command, etc) in the game aren't available for paladins, they get very few spells and cast at a much lower level. A paladin can't replace a cleric as a divine casters, the spells the paladin get are mostly there to buff themselves, not others. The paladin deals more damage though, at least once he hits level 13 and gets good gear.
With human flesh + a couple other resist items she hits 100% magic resist pretty fast. Her high level dispells mean you can get your party back in line pretty quickly after enemy confusion, or other disables.
Animate Dead is good, you can toss AOE nukes into the enemy with skelies tanking and just leave viccy on turn undead to bring them back to your side. They are very magic resistant so that helps them survive your own AOE spells.
All in all i think she shines in caster heavy parties.
Aerial Servants strike as a +4, so they can hit most things in game. So it's another useful summon.
TBH healing spells in the game aren't amazing, rod of rez and potions are more dependable.
IMO most of my reloads happen when my rod holder gets CC'ed and a a domination or confusion hits my party and my characters kill my PC.
Viccy insures that doesn't happen due to high MR.
However if i have a melee heavy party I prefer Arie, Robe of Vecna with cleric spells is pretty good. Bless and Chat are very quick casts. Which I like, Heals become somewhat more useful as well.
Except they can't have the same buffs, the best cleric buffs (Chaotic Command, etc) in the game aren't available for paladins, they get very few spells and cast at a much lower level.
That's true, they do miss out on Chaotic Commands. I wasn't suggesting paladins could replace clerics as divine casters, just that they do the melee part better. That's why a Priest of Helm's Seeking Sword becomes redundant in BG2. Why would you sacrifice high level casting in favor of a spell that makes you weaker than the average paladin?
By casting Seeking Sword, you are a divine caster no longer while the spell persists. As you said a paladin can not replace a cleric as a divine caster, yet you are doing exactly that by casting the mentioned spell.
the spells the paladin get are mostly there to buff themselves, not others.
That depends. Chant, Bless and Defensive Harmony are all on the paladin's spell list, and are not dependant on level. They have static boosts and a static duration, which level has no influence over. That makes the casters class irrelevant. And they still have enough slots for the odd DUHM, AoF, Slow Poison or Sanctuary. It's just a question of how you use your paladin.
I don't like Seeking Sword for convenience reasons, but it's not actually true that it blocks a cleric's spells.
Casting Seeking Sword prevents you from using spells only after casting. This means pre-buffs--which are the primary source of a cleric's power--are unaffected.
Seeking Sword only blocks some spells, and those spells aren't the most important ones.
Comments
And giving up most of the clerics strength? The clerics main strength is buffing, and you can do all of that before combat and using your seeking sword. The few spells you'll cast in combat are damage based or hold spells, you'll not be healing as potions and rod of resurrection does that so much better. Second strength of the Cleric? Summoning creatures, something you should be doing right BEFORE combat, meaning before you use your Sword.
So to put this into a shorter text.
1.) Prebuff your entire party
2.) Summon your creatures
3.) Summon Seeking Sword and go to town like a fighter with better survivability and equal damage (until level 13+ and then it's still awesome damage).
If we were talking about an Arcane Caster i'll agree, but there aren't that many divine spells you'll cast during combat, so you're not losing out on that much.
Elemental damage? If you're running with a party someone else can handle that, if you're not running with a party then you'll still easily be able to handle the situation without elemental damage.
The Priest of Helm isn't just a cleric, he is more than that.
+ Single class cleric, faster leveling.
+ Better turn undead ability (read above)
+ More divine spells
What you're gaining by playing the Priest of Helm is the ability to fight very proficiently in melee combat. So you're gaining the faster leveling and more powerful spells of the single class cleric, while still having the option to deal good damage and reach 3 APR. You're also not in need of any super powerful weapons, so that FoA can be given to someone else in your party.
If you're calling the Priest of Helm redundant then you're calling many single classes and most kits redundant.
Cleric? Redundant
Lathander? Redundant
Talos? Redundant
All druid kits? Redundant
Bard kits? Redundant
Rogue kits? Redundant.
Why would you ever pick a single class when you can pick a multi or dual class? They are redundant except a few (Wizard, Sorcerer, Berserker).
The Priest of Helm is an awesome kit that lets you fight very well in melee while being a single class cleric and gaining all the benefits from that. You get a magical sword from the start (2d4) that gives you +4 thac0 and lets you hit almost all creatures in the game.
I love the Avenger druid as well, is he as powerful as the C/R? No, but he gains certain awesome arcane spells and shape shifting abilities that will let him play in a different way.
[Edited]: BG2:EE isn't just the ToB part, it's also the SoA part and in most of BG2:EE you're using +2 to +3 weapons. There are certain classes that are really powerful early on and fall of a bit in the late game, these aren't bad at all, they can make the game much easier and then once you reach end game you can carry the game with someone else. Even when you reach ToB and the Sword of Seeking isn't that powerful anymore, you'll have a cleric with a ton of divine spells to fall back on, so at no point is that redundant. What the Priest of Helm does give you is someone incredible powerful in BG:EE while being awesome in BG2:EE early and mid game, efficient in end game but will be mostly on spell casting duty at that point.
I only ever play No-reload games nowaday, and it's crucial in my games to be able to have a strong start-mid game and he does that for me, once i reach end game I can have some of my other characters take up the front while still finding my Priest of Helm useful with other things.
It is possible to remove the Sword of Seeking if you absolutely need it, but yet to this day I haven't gotten into such a situation, even while playing solo SCS. And if someone dispel your buffs, they also remove your sword which in return gives you the option to cast those buffs again.
If they removed the silence part of it, the kit would put all the others to shame and have no disadvantages.
Dispel Magic
Holy smite
Zone of Sweet air (this one is of particular note since with your sword active a cloud effect is likely to expire about the same time or sooner than your sword will. So you may end up waiting a minute just to save or rest)
Defensive Harmony (duration is very short)
Flame Strike
Bolt of Glory
False Dawn
Wondrous Recall
Earthquake (enemies are only knocked out for 4 rounds so it doesn't make much sense to waste a round buffing afterwords)
Finger of death
Regeneration (between your own buffs and it its duration is going to be pretty short)
Sunray
Symbol death/fear/stun
Energy blades
Implosion
(I added False Dawn and Implosion to the list) A clerics greater strength is its versatility. Its a buffer, summoner, damage dealer, damage absorber and debuffer. By casting Seeking Sword you are putting your character in the position where going forward until its duration expires (or its dispelled) you are losing out on a lot of functionality in favour of gaining damage dealing that you never really needed. When it comes to things like your inability to cast Dispel Magic and Zone of Sweet Air it becomes particularly inconvenient. Nope just calling the Priest of Helm redundant in BG2EE. A single casting of Boon of Lathander along with the usual buffs and good cleric weapons probably makes the damages pretty close (and you can technically stack Boon of Lathander with itself so as a kit it would actually prove to be even more damaging). So it becomes redundant.
With human flesh + a couple other resist items she hits 100% magic resist pretty fast.
Her high level dispells mean you can get your party back in line pretty quickly after enemy confusion, or other disables.
Animate Dead is good, you can toss AOE nukes into the enemy with skelies tanking and just leave viccy on turn undead to bring them back to your side. They are very magic resistant so that helps them survive your own AOE spells.
All in all i think she shines in caster heavy parties.
Aerial Servants strike as a +4, so they can hit most things in game. So it's another useful summon.
TBH healing spells in the game aren't amazing, rod of rez and potions are more dependable.
IMO most of my reloads happen when my rod holder gets CC'ed and a a domination or confusion hits my party and my characters kill my PC.
Viccy insures that doesn't happen due to high MR.
However if i have a melee heavy party I prefer Arie, Robe of Vecna with cleric spells is pretty good. Bless and Chat are very quick casts. Which I like, Heals become somewhat more useful as well.
By casting Seeking Sword, you are a divine caster no longer while the spell persists. As you said a paladin can not replace a cleric as a divine caster, yet you are doing exactly that by casting the mentioned spell. That depends. Chant, Bless and Defensive Harmony are all on the paladin's spell list, and are not dependant on level. They have static boosts and a static duration, which level has no influence over. That makes the casters class irrelevant. And they still have enough slots for the odd DUHM, AoF, Slow Poison or Sanctuary. It's just a question of how you use your paladin.
Casting Seeking Sword prevents you from using spells only after casting. This means pre-buffs--which are the primary source of a cleric's power--are unaffected.
Seeking Sword only blocks some spells, and those spells aren't the most important ones.