In any case, back on topic. Unpopular opinion: I actually really like NwN2's Storm of Zehir. Many people praise Mask of the Betrayer for the story, setting and characters but I love creating my own group of nobodies and exploring.
It's also much harder and more hardcore, since there's no automatic respawn. You either resurrected fallen members or you kept corpses around.
It also uses a ton of skill checks on the Overworld. Finally, putting a great use for skills such as Survival, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Lore etc. Making them useful beyond combat.
@Archaos Seems you don't know what objective means?
Your entire rant was subjective preference under the disguise of "objective maths" lol. At no point did you give anything even remotely objective (and no your "countless tests" doesn't make it objective). The class isn't lack luster by any means, other than your opinion. All the rest of us seem to be able to make great powergaming usage of higher level swashbuckler EXCEPT you? I wonder why...
Also referring to a vocal minority of players on a forum (whose very opinions are subjective in the first place, and some of who religiously follow cookie cutter builds). Then pretending anyone disagreeing with you hasn't read a class description on NWN2Wiki? ....how "objective" lol
Feinting and hiding with multiple attacks per round:
On a side note being able to do multiple sneak attacks in a round after hiding or feinting doesn't mean it lasts an entire round. It is usually part of the problem of the game engine itself using attack flurries combined with crummy AI. I already tested this I could fit in 3-4 sneak attacks out of my 9 total attacks per round using a feint, this is because my character can fit in 3-4 attacks per attack flurry. So in other words, even exploiting the attack flurry game engine limitations and not using MOD ai improvements... feinting was still too weak for my liking.
@Teo_live *Sigh* Your only examples of why the Swashbuckler is great is because of Insightful Strike, Combat Insight builds, as well as mentioning duelist.
Also: "vocal minority on a forum"? Try majority, on multiple forums, including NwN2DB, throughout the years. And NwN2DB is the defacto website dedicated to NwN2 class building.
Please do explain, how is a pure Swashbuckler, better than a Swashbuckler/Duelist, or Rogue/Swashbuckler etc?
Wounding/Weakening Critical? Something that is completely useless on crit-immune enemies, takes too many criticals to make it useful (by then the target is dead) and can be cured with just a cheap potion in PvP (Potion of Lesser Restoration), if it came to that. And the Ability Damage from those might also be countered by Death Ward. Also found on potions or scrolls.
Do explain in detail, what those 20-30 levels of Swashbuckler give you, that a Swashbuckler 3-5 dip doesn't. I'm quite curious to know. And why are they so useful and a good investment.
A Fighter still does a ton of physical damage, by two-handing a greatsword (or whatever) with Power Attack, even to those immune to criticals.
A Rogue can ignore half of the immunity with Epic Precision and has UMD to deal with those immune.
A Ranger deals consistent damage to anything, immune or not, with Favored Weapons and Bane of Enemies. And since those mostly immune to crits are undead, every Ranger has Favored Enemy: Undead.
And about Feint, I was partially wrong. It doesn't last for a round but I was right in that the description is wrong. You can land multiple Sneak Attacks with Feint.
In short, we come back to what I said. The best levels of the Swashbuckler stop at level 3-5. The class doesn't give you anything useful beyond that.
Great for a dip, bad for single-class. Making it work, doesn't make it a great pure class either. You can make anything work.
My thoughts exactly. As we've noted earlier in this thread, this discussion is just for voicing unpopular opinions; it's not meant for an in-depth debate on every single point.
If you have a strong opinion about NWN2 builds, it's best to create a thread in the Off-Topic section for those interested.
And here I was sure somebody was gonna tell me why Spellstrike and its lower-level counterparts are mandatory for dealing with SCS mages, but it seems like everybody got sidetracked.
And here I was sure somebody was gonna tell me why Spellstrike and its lower-level counterparts are mandatory for dealing with SCS mages, but it seems like everybody got sidetracked.
Breach, Spell Thrust, Spell Pierce/Khelben's and good timing should be enough in most cases, waiting out buffs might be enough for others.
Breach, Spell Thrust, Spell Pierce/Khelben's and good timing should be enough in most cases, waiting out buffs might be enough for others.
Well, going off what I said before, a spellcaster fighting other spellcasters should only need to break out aoe damage spells that are high enough level to not get stopped by Globe of Invulnerability. So long as that's done, I still don't see the need for Pierce Magic/Khelben's, since the things they dispel only protect from single-target spells, but even then, Breach is exempt, so you won't even need them to set up that.
Breach, Spell Thrust, Spell Pierce/Khelben's and good timing should be enough in most cases, waiting out buffs might be enough for others.
Well, going off what I said before, a spellcaster fighting other spellcasters should only need to break out aoe damage spells that are high enough level to not get stopped by Globe of Invulnerability. So long as that's done, I still don't see the need for Pierce Magic/Khelben's, since the things they dispel only protect from single-target spells, but even then, Breach is exempt, so you won't even need them to set up that.
Ye, you're right. They might be protected against Energy/Elements so you might need to dispel them anyway actually.
Not that I like her being a Cleric/Mage and therefore a badass spellslinger (which is true enough). I like her as a person. Consider: raised in a sheltered environment, she tries to save a child from slavers. She is captured and sold to a circus where she is displayed as a freak. Her wings atrophy and get diseased because the circus owners won't pay to have her healed, so they cut off two of her limbs (and I doubt they used magic or anasthesia). The only kindness she got was from Quayle who mentored her. And I mean, Quayle! Then she is dumped onto a stranger who is the child of the dead god of murder. If you run the numbers, she is the human equivalent of 15 or 16 when you meet her. But she grows, matures, and has a toughness about her, but she stays a nice person through it all.
ask a simple question and get a debate which is (for me) super enlightening and informative regarding future class options. i think ill try the bard first and see if GOG has NWN2 as i still have my discs for NWN1 and have been playing them that way
@tbone1 i too like aerie. i get her every bg2/standalone tob playthrough. im yet to play an evil party yet so that would be the only reason not to get her
I think the series would have been more interesting if Imoen was Gorion's Ward instead. It'd have improved the plot points of her being arrested by the Cowled Wizards and the revelation that she and the PC are related.
You know, I actually loved Oblivion's main plot (itself a rather unusual opinion) solely because the PC wasn't the chosen hero for a change.
I can see where you're coming from, especially coming off of Pokemon: Sun and Moon, where you have a similar case with Lillie, but I'm still rather reluctant to endorse this, since it probably makes the narrative more railroady in its requiring Imoen to be alive and present through more of the story. Comparing Baldur's Gate (in particular the first game) to more modern RPG's, it's a lot more in the old-school AD&D tradition where PC's are expendable, so this would be a major tonal shift.
as interesting as imoen being the ward would be, im personally against it.
imoen would need to be neutrally aligned otherwise she would leave the party or whinge and whinge and wghinge, and maybe be the *ONLY* NPC in her job so we're inclined to take her even if we cant stand her (which is how my household feels about her) if shes an optional NPC
if shes not optional, we're railroaded which kinda limits my class options if shes a class i like going (dont always want multiple classes) or theres an NPC id prefer over her.
id rather have a choice of 5 different characters over 4.
its a good what if because had the game been made with imoen as the chosen one per se the game may not have the popularity it currently enjoys
hope that was coherent ramblings; imoen annoys me so much >_>
Makes sense to me and I agree that Imoen is a major PITA.
What was she thinking? Magic Missiles when you have just watched people being disintegrated right, left and center.
I would love there to be an option to say to the CW, "please take her off our hands, she's going to get us all killed at this rate".
Or having to kill her in TOB in the pocket plane, ( have her turn into the ravager so it becomes a matter of her or me, that would be a good twist, after having gone to all that trouble rescuing her)
Oh but she's so cheerful and upbeat...very suspicious.
we started our BG adventures in 2001 i think it was and shes been an annoyance since then. reading our letters, stalking us, and like u said, so, so upbeat "HEYA, its ME ... IMOEN". in BG its like shes found some sort of 'upper' type herbs to keep her happy.
in BG2 she lost the bag and, eugh, so depressed and annoying. her attempts at comforting jaheira was a little awkward. not gonna lie, was quite upset the first time i discovered theyd dual classed her and now shes not a pure thief anymore, then the NPC i lose to get her back -_-" not cool.
i get people like her but she just grinds my gears and in my house when we're playing a dice rolling type game, messing it up is now referred to as an imoen role ... even housemates that have never played share the annoyance
Sisters often go through a stage where they don't get on round about teenage years. And to me (female) she typifies the worst little sister syndrome. Always hanging around, always trying to muscle in on your life, always trying to be "cute", always begging for attention.
It doesn't help that I usually play as a rogue, she's superfluous in the game anyway. Would have been nice if there had been an option to choose her class or even to have a choice of sister/brother.
It doesn't help that I usually play as a rogue, she's superfluous in the game anyway. Would have been nice if there had been an option to choose her class or even to have a choice of sister/brother.
You can either dual her early or wait a little to max out one thief skill that your main Charname won't have to learn. I don't love or hate Imoen, but she can still be useful if you go thief.
If you want to change her class, there's always EEKeeper.
I think it's unlikely. This is the only BG-related forum I frequent, so I don't have other frames of reference, but at least according to TVTropes, she's generally quite popular among the fanbase and seemingly a lot less so here, but I don't see a gender divide here amongst who likes and dislikes her. That said, I don't think there's a ton of acrimony over the issue either way around here, so I don't have a good read on who specifically does or doesn't like her. Personally, I don't see her as any more fleshed out in the first game, and in the second game, her relationship with the story leaves me deeply ambivalent about her.
Comments
I actually really like NwN2's Storm of Zehir.
Many people praise Mask of the Betrayer for the story, setting and characters but I love creating my own group of nobodies and exploring.
It's also much harder and more hardcore, since there's no automatic respawn. You either resurrected fallen members or you kept corpses around.
It also uses a ton of skill checks on the Overworld.
Finally, putting a great use for skills such as Survival, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently, Lore etc.
Making them useful beyond combat.
Your entire rant was subjective preference under the disguise of "objective maths" lol. At no point did you give anything even remotely objective (and no your "countless tests" doesn't make it objective). The class isn't lack luster by any means, other than your opinion. All the rest of us seem to be able to make great powergaming usage of higher level swashbuckler EXCEPT you? I wonder why...
Also referring to a vocal minority of players on a forum (whose very opinions are subjective in the first place, and some of who religiously follow cookie cutter builds). Then pretending anyone disagreeing with you hasn't read a class description on NWN2Wiki? ....how "objective" lol
Feinting and hiding with multiple attacks per round:
*Sigh*
Your only examples of why the Swashbuckler is great is because of Insightful Strike, Combat Insight builds, as well as mentioning duelist.
Also: "vocal minority on a forum"?
Try majority, on multiple forums, including NwN2DB, throughout the years.
And NwN2DB is the defacto website dedicated to NwN2 class building.
Please do explain, how is a pure Swashbuckler, better than a Swashbuckler/Duelist, or Rogue/Swashbuckler etc?
Wounding/Weakening Critical? Something that is completely useless on crit-immune enemies, takes too many criticals to make it useful (by then the target is dead) and can be cured with just a cheap potion in PvP (Potion of Lesser Restoration), if it came to that.
And the Ability Damage from those might also be countered by Death Ward. Also found on potions or scrolls.
Do explain in detail, what those 20-30 levels of Swashbuckler give you, that a Swashbuckler 3-5 dip doesn't. I'm quite curious to know. And why are they so useful and a good investment.
A Fighter still does a ton of physical damage, by two-handing a greatsword (or whatever) with Power Attack, even to those immune to criticals.
A Rogue can ignore half of the immunity with Epic Precision and has UMD to deal with those immune.
A Ranger deals consistent damage to anything, immune or not, with Favored Weapons and Bane of Enemies. And since those mostly immune to crits are undead, every Ranger has Favored Enemy: Undead.
And about Feint, I was partially wrong. It doesn't last for a round but I was right in that the description is wrong. You can land multiple Sneak Attacks with Feint.
In short, we come back to what I said. The best levels of the Swashbuckler stop at level 3-5.
The class doesn't give you anything useful beyond that.
Great for a dip, bad for single-class. Making it work, doesn't make it a great pure class either.
You can make anything work.
If you have a strong opinion about NWN2 builds, it's best to create a thread in the Off-Topic section for those interested.
Not that I like her being a Cleric/Mage and therefore a badass spellslinger (which is true enough). I like her as a person. Consider: raised in a sheltered environment, she tries to save a child from slavers. She is captured and sold to a circus where she is displayed as a freak. Her wings atrophy and get diseased because the circus owners won't pay to have her healed, so they cut off two of her limbs (and I doubt they used magic or anasthesia). The only kindness she got was from Quayle who mentored her. And I mean, Quayle! Then she is dumped onto a stranger who is the child of the dead god of murder. If you run the numbers, she is the human equivalent of 15 or 16 when you meet her. But she grows, matures, and has a toughness about her, but she stays a nice person through it all.
So yes, I like Aerie.
ask a simple question and get a debate which is (for me) super enlightening and informative regarding future class options. i think ill try the bard first and see if GOG has NWN2
@tbone1 i too like aerie. i get her every bg2/standalone tob playthrough. im yet to play an evil party yet so that would be the only reason not to get her
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/62499/neverwinter-nights-diamond-was-free-on-gog-offer-has-ended
I think the series would have been more interesting if Imoen was Gorion's Ward instead. It'd have improved the plot points of her being arrested by the Cowled Wizards and the revelation that she and the PC are related.
You know, I actually loved Oblivion's main plot (itself a rather unusual opinion) solely because the PC wasn't the chosen hero for a change.
imoen would need to be neutrally aligned otherwise she would leave the party or whinge and whinge and wghinge, and maybe be the *ONLY* NPC in her job so we're inclined to take her even if we cant stand her (which is how my household feels about her) if shes an optional NPC
if shes not optional, we're railroaded which kinda limits my class options if shes a class i like going (dont always want multiple classes) or theres an NPC id prefer over her.
id rather have a choice of 5 different characters over 4.
its a good what if because had the game been made with imoen as the chosen one per se the game may not have the popularity it currently enjoys
hope that was coherent ramblings; imoen annoys me so much >_>
Makes sense to me and I agree that Imoen is a major PITA.
What was she thinking?
Magic Missiles when you have just watched people being disintegrated right, left and center.
I would love there to be an option to say to the CW, "please take her off our hands, she's going to get us all killed at this rate".
Or having to kill her in TOB in the pocket plane, ( have her turn into the ravager so it becomes a matter of her or me, that would be a good twist, after having gone to all that trouble rescuing her)
Oh but she's so cheerful and upbeat...very suspicious.
we started our BG adventures in 2001 i think it was and shes been an annoyance since then.
reading our letters, stalking us, and like u said, so, so upbeat "HEYA, its ME ... IMOEN". in BG its like shes found some sort of 'upper' type herbs to keep her happy.
in BG2 she lost the bag and, eugh, so depressed and annoying. her attempts at comforting jaheira was a little awkward. not gonna lie, was quite upset the first time i discovered theyd dual classed her and now shes not a pure thief anymore, then the NPC i lose to get her back -_-" not cool.
i get people like her but she just grinds my gears and in my house when we're playing a dice rolling type game, messing it up is now referred to as an imoen role ... even housemates that have never played share the annoyance
Show me more.
I wonder if it's a male/female divide of opinion?
Sisters often go through a stage where they don't get on round about teenage years. And to me (female) she typifies the worst little sister syndrome. Always hanging around, always trying to muscle in on your life, always trying to be "cute", always begging for attention.
It doesn't help that I usually play as a rogue, she's superfluous in the game anyway.
Would have been nice if there had been an option to choose her class or even to have a choice of sister/brother.
If you want to change her class, there's always EEKeeper.