Stating an unpopular opinion? Here I go.. I think the original BG1 is overrated and NWN2 SoZ campaign is underrated. DA2 is a good -if rushed- game and the ME3 endings are fine. Warlords Battlecry is a better RPG/RTS combo (and generally a better game) than Warcraft 3. Bethesda creates buggy sandboxes and can't create a good and engaging story. Boba Fett outfit looks like it is designed by an eight-year old boy -and thus looks neither great nor intimidating.
Sooo. I *think* I should now leave the internet and hide under a rock... But I actually believe that..
BTW, if you like to mix RPG and RTS, then I say get WBC or The Protectors. I think the series has the chance to be the best mix of the two genres.
@batoor Lots of custom campaigns have scripted NPCs. What are you talking about?
Sorry I meant specifically campaigns like SoZ. Good for exploration and open world content, but too light on main story and npcs imo..Or maybe SoZ has a number of good npcs later on? I didn't get that far.
Compared to lets say Mysteries of Westgate, Darkness over Daggerford or a number of those other premium modules.
Haven't played, but have seen a lot of comparisons to Warcraft 3 in the way it combines an RPG-lite hero system with an RTS. All three WBC games are on GOG, from the looks of things.
Haven't played, but have seen a lot of comparisons to Warcraft 3 in the way it combines an RPG-lite hero system with an RTS. All three WBC games are on GOG, from the looks of things.
The problem is that the way they use the RPG elements is different. In WC3 you hire race-specific heroes that can level up on the map. In the WBC series you *create* your hero at the beginning of the game and the character levels up (and doubles as a game profile). If you are unsure if you like the series I say get The Protectors. The makers of the (standalone) "mod" got the game engine from the creators of WBC and the game itself is based on WBC3, which is an easier start than the first two games.. Oh and it is free, since they are not allowed to make money with it.
The only reason to call WBC a rpg-lite is the fact that it has more of a strategy-game story than the story of a rpg.. But like I said, get the Protectors or one of the demos and try it out! (Just one last info, the first two gamesallowed you to pick a class after you leveled up once, part 3 and the mod scrapped the old system and let you create a full character at lvl1)
A common issue shared by many strategy RPGs featuring hero units and unit production is that they're genre emulsions, not solutions, their mechanics co-existing rather than complementing and augmenting each other. Which eventually results in one of the following: 1) You realize you don't really need to develop your base, you can simply send you OP party ahead and they'll bust everything into pieces. 2) You face such amounts of generic units that fielding must-survive heroes hardly makes a difference and becomes a hazard rather than help. 3) You alternate between RPG and strategy missions.
PS And another thing, for me at least, is that thanks to the two contradicting mechanics the plot frequently degrades into typical power fantasy where you play some kind of warlord.
A common issue shared by many strategy RPGs featuring hero units and unit production is that they're genre emulsions, not solutions, their mechanics co-existing rather than complementing and augmenting each other. Which eventually results in one of the following: 1) You realize you don't really need to develop your base, you can simply send you OP party ahead and they'll bust everything into pieces. 2) You face such amounts of generic units that fielding must-survive heroes hardly makes a difference and becomes a hazard rather than help. 3) You alternate between RPG and strategy missions.
PS And another thing, for me at least, is that thanks to the two contradicting mechanics the plot frequently degrades into typical power fantasy where you play some kind of warlord.
Well, actually there *are* strategy game wit rpg-elements that complement each other. To your points: 1)This only works if you are the only one with a party.. In WBC the enemy heroe(s) are around the same level as you. Also, the starting towers make rushing also difficulty and this only breaks down near the level-cap - a level cap which needs hours invested into the game and even then you need a well-made character to pull this off.
2)This is actually the most common problem I have seen. In WBC, you don't lose the round if your hero dies (unless you play an assassination game or have an ironman character), you are just lacking the best conversion unit and an additional builder. Painful, but possible to pull through.
3)That kinda sounds like Spellforce.. And I really dislike this problem the most. This is usually a pitfall for full RPG/Strategy hybrids. Usually I say try to define what you want to be: A RPG with strategy/tactics elements or a Strategy game with RPG elements. (Since I like to ramble about WBC, I feel the urge to say that they don't do this either =P)
But all in all, this is one of the reason I kinda miss demos. A demo usually gave you a idea how themechanics worked and you could decide if you like them *before* buying the game.
i will eventually try NWN2 again, and while i normally loathe the bard (cant get into them) i feel it would be easier to learn in the NWN games as opposed to BG. could just be game mechanics and what not but i like the idea of a bard and trying something new
regarding the other points, excuse my ignorance but whats WBC?
@sazzie: WBC can stand for World Boardgaming Championships, Westboro Baptist Church, or Wiggly Butt Cactus, a rare kind of cactus known for its strange appearance and delicious taste.
EDIT: It's especially delicious if you remove the spines first.
1)This only works if you are the only one with a party.. In WBC the enemy heroe(s) are around the same level as you. Also, the starting towers make rushing also difficulty and this only breaks down near the level-cap - a level cap which needs hours invested into the game and even then you need a well-made character to pull this off.
Strictly speaking, you *are* the only one with a party, if you count retinue. Starting from mid game I was able to consistently wipe out enemy starting troops with a few well placed AoEs, and send heroes running for their life if not outright killing them. And then proceed to blowing up those towers with relative ease.
2)This is actually the most common problem I have seen. In WBC, you don't lose the round if your hero dies (unless you play an assassination game or have an ironman character), you are just lacking the best conversion unit and an additional builder. Painful, but possible to pull through.
I hate the double XP for ironman, though My level 30+ mage was once killed by a wild critical from a tower and I had to rage quit the game for months.
@ThacoBell i think i tried a swashbuckler in BG and liked it. more than open to it in other games. in NWN i tend to stick to mages so ill try a new path and try something new *_*
@sazzie If Bards are too annoying to play, you could try Swashbuckler. Fighter class with an emphasis on charisma and diplomacy.
@sazzie The Swashbuckler in NwN2 (and in DnD 3.5E) is awful. And I don't mean "it's not as OP as other classes", I mean "everything it tries to do, fails, badly". I would strongly avoid using them.
Rangers do the finesse fighting better. Rogues do the precision damage better. If you want a warrior with Charisma and Diplomacy, that's the Paladin, but also the Favored Soul. Swashbuckler tries to combine the weakest aspects of the above and being below average at it.
A great alternative to playing a pure Swashbuckler, would be to make a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight multiclass. It combines finesse fighting, with arcane casting and being closer to the Blade from BG, than the Bard of NwN2.
If you're new to NwN2 and want to play the campaigns, I'd highly recommend a Cleric. They can do everything, got Diplomacy and you can give them Martial and Exotic Weapons feats for extra variety.
@sazzie If Bards are too annoying to play, you could try Swashbuckler. Fighter class with an emphasis on charisma and diplomacy.
@sazzie The Swashbuckler in NwN2 (and in DnD 3.5E) is awful. And I don't mean "it's not as OP as other classes", I mean "everything it tries to do, fails, badly". I would strongly avoid using them.
Rangers do the finesse fighting better. Rogues do the precision damage better. If you want a warrior with Charisma and Diplomacy, that's the Paladin, but also the Favored Soul. Swashbuckler tries to combine the weakest aspects of the above and being below average at it.
A great alternative to playing a pure Swashbuckler, would be to make a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight multiclass. It combines finesse fighting, with arcane casting and being closer to the Blade from BG, than the Bard of NwN2.
If you're new to NwN2 and want to play the campaigns, I'd highly recommend a Cleric. They can do everything, got Diplomacy and you can give them Martial and Exotic Weapons feats for extra variety.
Holy crap a Swashbuckler/Wizard/EK sounds SUPER fun and yeah with the full wizard spell selection does resemble the Blade Bard. I'll have to see which races have favored class: Wizard and try that. Thanks for the idea!
Holy crap a Swashbuckler/Wizard/EK sounds SUPER fun and yeah with the full wizard spell selection does resemble the Blade Bard. I'll have to see which races have favored class: Wizard and try that. Thanks for the idea!
Swashbuckler's best features are the Weapon Finesse at level 1 and Insightful Strike at level 3 (add INT mod as damage). That's pretty much it. It's why going pure Swashbuckler is bleh.
Elves have Wizard as favored class mainly and it fits best with their lore. Moon Elves (+2 Dex -2 Con), Sun Elves (+2 Int -2 Con) and Drow (+2 Dex+Int+Cha and Spell Resistance but -2 Con and +2 Level Adjustment) specifically. It can also work with Humans or Half-Elves. But the elves are best at it.
The typical build is: 3 Swash/8 Wizard/10 Eldritch Knight for level 20. But you're not getting getting level 9 spells until level 21 (-3 from Swash and -1 from EK). Alternatively, just: 1 Swash/9 Wizard/10 EK before level 21.
I pretty much never use spellstrike, Pierce Magic, Secret Word, and all of those spells that remove spell protections. Why? Because Spell Turning and Spell Trap and the like only work on things that directly target the caster, and not things like Horrid Wilting or Firestorm or Incendiary Cloud, so if you want to stop an enemy spellcaster, you can skip a step and blast them with one of those. Things might be different with SCS or something, but I'm not sure what spells need preparation like that and are worth using against wizards.
I'm not the biggest fan of Dracoliches...There's something about that huge mass of bones that just seems so ''unmanageable'' Also the entire lore behind it with Sammaster and the cult of the dragon just feels silly. My least favorite organization, together with the Harpers.
@Archaos How is the swashbuckler fail in NWN2? It is quite good at what it does for a base class, dare I say it is one of the best base classes in the game.
Now if you want to argue that a pure class swashbuckler sucks... then yes almost every base class sucks and munchkin classing is always preferable. This is where pathfinder imo beats DnD 3.5e as pf actively discourages multiclassing with powerful archetypes.
@Archaos I strongly disagree. Swashbuckler is by far my favorite class to run in NWN2. Maybe you just don't play them properly.
Everything a Swashbuckler can do, a Rogue can do better. Or even a Ranger. Having it as a favorite, doesn't make it a good class. Almost no one plays a pure Swashbuckler, at least on online servers. And I'm not talking about PvP.
Most take it for Swash/Wizard/EK builds or Duelists or dipping for Rogues.
@Archaos How is the swashbuckler fail in NWN2? It is quite good at what it does for a base class, dare I say it is one of the best base classes in the game.
Now if you want to argue that a pure class swashbuckler sucks... then yes almost every base class sucks and munchkin classing is always preferable. This is where pathfinder imo beats DnD 3.5e as pf actively discourages multiclassing with powerful archetypes.
Swashbuckler is objectively one of the worst classes in the game. And especially in PnP.
-The INT mod to damage, forces you raise INT really high, for no real benefit. You would need to raise both DEX and INT to be doing what a simple fighter does. Insightful Strike also doesn't work on crit-immune enemies. In contrast, the Rogue gets Sneak Attack as they level up and in epic, they get Epic Precision to make it work at 50% even at those immune.
-The Grace ability is decent but that is pretty much about it.
-The Weakening/Wounding Critical abilities come way too late to be relevant. If at that level, you can land so many criticals on someone not crit-immune, then the target is dead anyway. You're better off going Weapon Master instead, to enhance those criticals with more damage, instead of weakening them little by little.
You could instead make a Rogue and play it like a Swashbuckler with Feint, while having a ton more abilities and massive damage from a flurry of Sneak Attacks, which can also inflict Strength damage, at level 13?
Generally, I recommend a Rogue X/Swashbuckler 3 for free Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike, since the Rogue needs that extra INT also. Hell, there's a Rogue package called "Rogue, Swashbuckler" because you can do exactly that with a Rogue.
TL;DR: The Fighter and Rogue outdamage the Swashbuckler much easier, while the Fighter gets a ton more feats and proficiencies and the Rogue twice the skills and skill points, while being more versatile in general. In short, unlike BG, NwN2's Swashbuckler is quite redundant and niche. It has its uses and place, but not as a pure class taken to level 20 or 30.
Swashbuckler is objectively one of the worst classes in the game. And especially in PnP.
-The INT mod to damage, forces you raise INT really high, for no real benefit. You would need to raise both DEX and INT to be doing what a simple fighter does. Insightful Strike also doesn't work on crit-immune enemies. In contrast, the Rogue gets Sneak Attack as they level up and in epic, they get Epic Precision to make it work at 50% even at those immune.
Did you forget the epic feat Combat Insight? Replaces your Str with your INT modifier (including 1.5x with two handed), works on undead/crit immune and STACKS with insightful strike. This makes a swashbuckler base one of the hardest finesse hitters in the game. Not to mention the insane amount of bonuses high INT gives (lots of skill points and prestige classes that stack INT for AC).
Feint is weak it only works for a single attack per round (x2 with haste is still not enough), doesn't work on low INT enemies and suffers from excessive stat syndrome. Completely redundant after mid-game.
Sure high level swashbucklers as sub par, but so are most base classes. Fighters [bonus feats] end up being redundant and +6 damage per attack is all they have. Rangers are much more limited than swashbucklers with favored enemy being so specific. This is a flaw with 3-3.5e system as it encourages munchkin multiclassing.
Sure a [Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master] will out damage almost anything, however a [Swashbuckler/Duelist/Rogue] is just much more well rounded with much better defense, more skills and options in combat.
You say your post is objective but it clearly doesn't take into account all aspects of combat. All of my power gaming NWN2/PnP builds usually have at least one high mental stat. WIS/INT/CHA stats in NWN2 are just too good to ignore as they can be used both defensively and offensively, unlike STR and CON.
Combat Insight doesn't require many levels in Swashbuckler, at best three. For Insightful Strike. Just because a 3 level dip is usually good, doesn't mean that the class is good. Beyond 3 levels, the Swashbuckler is just bad, that's a fact.
Actually, Feint works for one whole round. And where Feint doesn't work, there's always Hide in Plain Sight.
Rangers are arguably far more versatile to Swashbucklers, not limited at all. The Favored Enemy part is just a small part of their versatility. They get free dualwield/archery proficiencies, they get more skills (Survival, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently), more skill points, spells, a companion, Hide in Plain Sight, running stealth etc.
Free dual-wield proficiencies also mean that the Ranger can just focus on STR and do lots of damage in the late game (where dual-wielding shines).
Most Ranger builds stop at level 21. Most Rogue builds at ~13-15. Most Fighter builds builds at level ~12. Most Swashbuckler builds at level 3.
The above is the point where those classes lose their pure level usefulness and might as well multiclass.
Like I said, Swashbuckler dips are great for Rogues, Duelists or Eldritch Knights. The rest of the class is just awful though. And that's an objective fact. This is what I was talking about.
Just like Shadowdancer 1 is an amazing dip, but the rest of the class is pretty much garbage.
TL;DR: The Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman and Barbarian have long been considered the weakest base classes to keep pure.
And that's an objective fact. This is what I was talking about Just like Shadowdancer 1 is an amazing dip, but the rest of the class is pretty much garbage. TL;DR: The Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman and Barbarian have long been considered the weakest base classes to keep pure.
By who? A few cookie cutter build guides? My entire NWN2 experience is the complete opposite of these so called "objective facts" of yours.
+ Spirit Shaman is one of the few base classes that makes sense pure. Tried and tested + Shadowdancer is a great prestige class for its defensive bonuses (one of my power builds was Shadowdancer [8]).
Actually, Feint works for one whole round. And where Feint doesn't work, there's always Hide in Plain Sight.
Feint feat: "Feint can be used to deny your opponent their DEX bonus to AC for a combat round. In order for it to succeed you make a Bluff check with a target DC of the target's Base Attack Bonus plus their Spot skill. Regardless of whether their DEX bonus is removed, you only get a single attack that round"
Hide in plain sight is strong but has many MANY downsides. Furthermore it's a Dex check, something a STR build won't have much of..
There is a lot more to NWN2 than combat. The interactions with npcs in the world are in my opinion its strongest aspect. The Swashie offers the best balance between melee combat, and talking circles around anyone.
There is a lot more to NWN2 than combat. The interactions with npcs in the world are in my opinion its strongest aspect. The Swashie offers the best balance between melee combat, and talking circles around anyone.
In the original campaign? I don't remember them having a sufficiently good number of roleplaying options/dialogue choices .
@Teo_live No build guides at all. A lots of people building in the NwN2DB, but also on online forums and personal experience. A pure Swashbuckler is very very lackluster. So is the Shaman and Barbarian.
Spirit Shamans
Spirit Shaman, compared to Favored Soul, is quite weak also, mainly because it needs two casting stats (WIS and CHA) while the Favored Soul doesn't. You could just make a Favored Soul with 8 WIS and focus on CHA for the buffs and extra spells. Buff and melee, in short.
Spirit Shaman needs to raise both stats because of the many offensive spells. Unlike the Druid, the Shaman gets no Wild Shape or Animal Companion. And their defensive spells aren't as good as either the Cleric's list or Wizard's list. Also, Chastise Spirits has very limited applications, when compared to Turn Undead and cannot be used for such divine feats.
But, that's for vanilla. If you change the Shaman's casting (in the files) to be WIS/WIS, instead of WIS/CHA, it becomes much better and more powerful. And probably the best DC caster in the game, with Owl's Insight. Otherwise, it depends on CHA for DCs, making Owl's Insight useless, when compared to the Druid.
Basically, the Spirit Shaman is a weaker Druid that needs two casting stats, while the Druid has Wild Shape, Animal Companion, Spontaneous casting and only needs one casting stat.
The Feint description (as well as other things in NwN2) lies. That's the PnP description. If you tested it, you'd find that Feint works for about a round. I got multiple Sneak Attacks before needing to Feint again.
About STR and HiPS. Actually, it does, since Rangers with HiPS cannot wear armor heavier than Light. You might not be the best sneaker, but you can definitely benefit a lot from HiPS versus enemies that have low or no Spot/Listen skills. Plus the Ranger spell Camouflage raises your Hide by +10. In the end, it's a free bonus. Not as effective on a STR build, but it definitely works.
Shadowdancer
On Shadowdancers, most stop at level 5 at best. For Defensive Roll and Improved Uncanny Dodge. Shadowdancer gives you no Rogue skills, no Sneak Attack, no UMD. Shadow Evade is very very weak and short-lived. It lasts 3 rounds per use, for 3 uses total. That's 9 rounds at best. Assassin on the contrary, gives you Sneak Attack, Rogue skills and UMD. But also Ghostly Visage for 1 minute per class level, and Greater Invisibility which is Invisibility plus Displacement (50% concealment) also for 1 min/per class level.
Rogue 13-15/Assassin 8-9/Invisible Blade 5, is far better as a build. Going Shadowdancer 8 or 10 gives you nothing great. Especially when that Damage Reduction 10 they get from Shadow Evade, is equivalent to a Stoneskin spell, from a scroll or wand or caster.
Barbarians
About Barbarians, there is an ability cap at +12. Which means that if you have a +6 STR item and Rage for +8 STR (Mighty Rage), you don't get +14 STR, you get only +12. Rage is also short-lived and a Fighter/Frenzied Berserker is better than a Barbarian/Frenzerker. Or even a pure Barbarian. Since your Rage has a cap, unfortunately. Pure Fighter does more reliable damage, with Focus/Specialization etc. Especially a Fighter/Weapon Master, which even against crit-immune enemies, a critical threat is still an automatic hit. Plus the Fighter has better armor, Tower Shields, stuff like Combat Expertise etc etc. Those are permanent or toggable bonuses with no duration or giving a penalty like Rage.
Finally, I never said I followed any guide. If you read the Swashbuckler's class description, you'd soon realize how lackluster the class features are after level 3-5. Most people on forums, character builds and online, go with Swash5/Duelist10/Rogue X or Fighter, or even Weapon Master.
The best feature of the Swashbuckler is Insightful Strike, for Combat Insight builds. After that, it has no class features worth speaking of, compared to other classes.
What I'm talking about are observations, discussions, testing and general experience on build advises and what I've seen online and did myself.
Class features aren't an obscure secret. You can read them on NwN2Wiki and compare them.
It is objective, because such things can be tested, measured and compared. It is math. Preference doesn't change an objective fact which has been tested countless times.
Comments
Compared to lets say Mysteries of Westgate, Darkness over Daggerford or a number of those other premium modules.
Haven't played, but have seen a lot of comparisons to Warcraft 3 in the way it combines an RPG-lite hero system with an RTS. All three WBC games are on GOG, from the looks of things.
If you are unsure if you like the series I say get The Protectors. The makers of the (standalone) "mod" got the game engine from the creators of WBC and the game itself is based on WBC3, which is an easier start than the first two games.. Oh and it is free, since they are not allowed to make money with it.
The only reason to call WBC a rpg-lite is the fact that it has more of a strategy-game story than the story of a rpg.. But like I said, get the Protectors or one of the demos and try it out!
(Just one last info, the first two gamesallowed you to pick a class after you leveled up once, part 3 and the mod scrapped the old system and let you create a full character at lvl1)
Which eventually results in one of the following:
1) You realize you don't really need to develop your base, you can simply send you OP party ahead and they'll bust everything into pieces.
2) You face such amounts of generic units that fielding must-survive heroes hardly makes a difference and becomes a hazard rather than help.
3) You alternate between RPG and strategy missions.
PS And another thing, for me at least, is that thanks to the two contradicting mechanics the plot frequently degrades into typical power fantasy where you play some kind of warlord.
To your points:
1)This only works if you are the only one with a party.. In WBC the enemy heroe(s) are around the same level as you. Also, the starting towers make rushing also difficulty and this only breaks down near the level-cap - a level cap which needs hours invested into the game and even then you need a well-made character to pull this off.
2)This is actually the most common problem I have seen. In WBC, you don't lose the round if your hero dies (unless you play an assassination game or have an ironman character), you are just lacking the best conversion unit and an additional builder. Painful, but possible to pull through.
3)That kinda sounds like Spellforce.. And I really dislike this problem the most. This is usually a pitfall for full RPG/Strategy hybrids. Usually I say try to define what you want to be: A RPG with strategy/tactics elements or a Strategy game with RPG elements. (Since I like to ramble about WBC, I feel the urge to say that they don't do this either =P)
But all in all, this is one of the reason I kinda miss demos. A demo usually gave you a idea how themechanics worked and you could decide if you like them *before* buying the game.
i will eventually try NWN2 again, and while i normally loathe the bard (cant get into them) i feel it would be easier to learn in the NWN games as opposed to BG. could just be game mechanics and what not but i like the idea of a bard and trying something new
regarding the other points, excuse my ignorance but whats WBC?
EDIT: It's especially delicious if you remove the spines first.
Indeed
The Swashbuckler in NwN2 (and in DnD 3.5E) is awful.
And I don't mean "it's not as OP as other classes", I mean "everything it tries to do, fails, badly".
I would strongly avoid using them.
Rangers do the finesse fighting better. Rogues do the precision damage better. If you want a warrior with Charisma and Diplomacy, that's the Paladin, but also the Favored Soul.
Swashbuckler tries to combine the weakest aspects of the above and being below average at it.
A great alternative to playing a pure Swashbuckler, would be to make a Swashbuckler/Wizard/Eldritch Knight multiclass.
It combines finesse fighting, with arcane casting and being closer to the Blade from BG, than the Bard of NwN2.
If you're new to NwN2 and want to play the campaigns, I'd highly recommend a Cleric.
They can do everything, got Diplomacy and you can give them Martial and Exotic Weapons feats for extra variety.
That's pretty much it. It's why going pure Swashbuckler is bleh.
Elves have Wizard as favored class mainly and it fits best with their lore.
Moon Elves (+2 Dex -2 Con), Sun Elves (+2 Int -2 Con) and Drow (+2 Dex+Int+Cha and Spell Resistance but -2 Con and +2 Level Adjustment) specifically.
It can also work with Humans or Half-Elves. But the elves are best at it.
The typical build is: 3 Swash/8 Wizard/10 Eldritch Knight for level 20.
But you're not getting getting level 9 spells until level 21 (-3 from Swash and -1 from EK).
Alternatively, just: 1 Swash/9 Wizard/10 EK before level 21.
I like liches in general though.
Now if you want to argue that a pure class swashbuckler sucks... then yes almost every base class sucks and munchkin classing is always preferable. This is where pathfinder imo beats DnD 3.5e as pf actively discourages multiclassing with powerful archetypes.
Having it as a favorite, doesn't make it a good class.
Almost no one plays a pure Swashbuckler, at least on online servers. And I'm not talking about PvP.
Most take it for Swash/Wizard/EK builds or Duelists or dipping for Rogues. Swashbuckler is objectively one of the worst classes in the game. And especially in PnP.
-The INT mod to damage, forces you raise INT really high, for no real benefit.
You would need to raise both DEX and INT to be doing what a simple fighter does.
Insightful Strike also doesn't work on crit-immune enemies.
In contrast, the Rogue gets Sneak Attack as they level up and in epic, they get Epic Precision to make it work at 50% even at those immune.
-The Grace ability is decent but that is pretty much about it.
-The Weakening/Wounding Critical abilities come way too late to be relevant.
If at that level, you can land so many criticals on someone not crit-immune, then the target is dead anyway.
You're better off going Weapon Master instead, to enhance those criticals with more damage, instead of weakening them little by little.
You could instead make a Rogue and play it like a Swashbuckler with Feint, while having a ton more abilities and massive damage from a flurry of Sneak Attacks, which can also inflict Strength damage, at level 13?
Generally, I recommend a Rogue X/Swashbuckler 3 for free Weapon Finesse and Insightful Strike, since the Rogue needs that extra INT also.
Hell, there's a Rogue package called "Rogue, Swashbuckler" because you can do exactly that with a Rogue.
TL;DR: The Fighter and Rogue outdamage the Swashbuckler much easier, while the Fighter gets a ton more feats and proficiencies and the Rogue twice the skills and skill points, while being more versatile in general.
In short, unlike BG, NwN2's Swashbuckler is quite redundant and niche.
It has its uses and place, but not as a pure class taken to level 20 or 30.
Replaces your Str with your INT modifier (including 1.5x with two handed), works on undead/crit immune and STACKS with insightful strike. This makes a swashbuckler base one of the hardest finesse hitters in the game. Not to mention the insane amount of bonuses high INT gives (lots of skill points and prestige classes that stack INT for AC).
Feint is weak it only works for a single attack per round (x2 with haste is still not enough), doesn't work on low INT enemies and suffers from excessive stat syndrome. Completely redundant after mid-game.
Sure high level swashbucklers as sub par, but so are most base classes. Fighters [bonus feats] end up being redundant and +6 damage per attack is all they have. Rangers are much more limited than swashbucklers with favored enemy being so specific. This is a flaw with 3-3.5e system as it encourages munchkin multiclassing.
Sure a [Barbarian/Frenzied Berserker/Weapon Master] will out damage almost anything, however a [Swashbuckler/Duelist/Rogue] is just much more well rounded with much better defense, more skills and options in combat.
You say your post is objective but it clearly doesn't take into account all aspects of combat. All of my power gaming NWN2/PnP builds usually have at least one high mental stat. WIS/INT/CHA stats in NWN2 are just too good to ignore as they can be used both defensively and offensively, unlike STR and CON.
Combat Insight doesn't require many levels in Swashbuckler, at best three. For Insightful Strike.
Just because a 3 level dip is usually good, doesn't mean that the class is good.
Beyond 3 levels, the Swashbuckler is just bad, that's a fact.
Actually, Feint works for one whole round. And where Feint doesn't work, there's always Hide in Plain Sight.
Rangers are arguably far more versatile to Swashbucklers, not limited at all.
The Favored Enemy part is just a small part of their versatility.
They get free dualwield/archery proficiencies, they get more skills (Survival, Spot, Listen, Hide, Move Silently), more skill points, spells, a companion, Hide in Plain Sight, running stealth etc.
Free dual-wield proficiencies also mean that the Ranger can just focus on STR and do lots of damage in the late game (where dual-wielding shines).
Most Ranger builds stop at level 21.
Most Rogue builds at ~13-15.
Most Fighter builds builds at level ~12.
Most Swashbuckler builds at level 3.
The above is the point where those classes lose their pure level usefulness and might as well multiclass.
Like I said, Swashbuckler dips are great for Rogues, Duelists or Eldritch Knights.
The rest of the class is just awful though. And that's an objective fact. This is what I was talking about.
Just like Shadowdancer 1 is an amazing dip, but the rest of the class is pretty much garbage.
TL;DR: The Swashbuckler, Spirit Shaman and Barbarian have long been considered the weakest base classes to keep pure.
+ Spirit Shaman is one of the few base classes that makes sense pure. Tried and tested
+ Shadowdancer is a great prestige class for its defensive bonuses (one of my power builds was Shadowdancer [8]). Feint feat:
"Feint can be used to deny your opponent their DEX bonus to AC for a combat round. In order for it to succeed you make a Bluff check with a target DC of the target's Base Attack Bonus plus their Spot skill. Regardless of whether their DEX bonus is removed, you only get a single attack that round"
Hide in plain sight is strong but has many MANY downsides. Furthermore it's a Dex check, something a STR build won't have much of.. ...Yeah you should probably stop listening to other peoples cookie cutter builds.
Leads me to my unpopular opinion for day: Cookie cutter character guides are mediocre at building characters
No build guides at all.
A lots of people building in the NwN2DB, but also on online forums and personal experience.
A pure Swashbuckler is very very lackluster. So is the Shaman and Barbarian.
Spirit Shamans
Spirit Shaman, compared to Favored Soul, is quite weak also, mainly because it needs two casting stats (WIS and CHA) while the Favored Soul doesn't. You could just make a Favored Soul with 8 WIS and focus on CHA for the buffs and extra spells.
Buff and melee, in short.
Spirit Shaman needs to raise both stats because of the many offensive spells.
Unlike the Druid, the Shaman gets no Wild Shape or Animal Companion.
And their defensive spells aren't as good as either the Cleric's list or Wizard's list.
Also, Chastise Spirits has very limited applications, when compared to Turn Undead and cannot be used for such divine feats.
But, that's for vanilla. If you change the Shaman's casting (in the files) to be WIS/WIS, instead of WIS/CHA, it becomes much better and more powerful. And probably the best DC caster in the game, with Owl's Insight.
Otherwise, it depends on CHA for DCs, making Owl's Insight useless, when compared to the Druid.
Basically, the Spirit Shaman is a weaker Druid that needs two casting stats, while the Druid has Wild Shape, Animal Companion, Spontaneous casting and only needs one casting stat.
The Feint description (as well as other things in NwN2) lies. That's the PnP description.
If you tested it, you'd find that Feint works for about a round. I got multiple Sneak Attacks before needing to Feint again.
About STR and HiPS.
Actually, it does, since Rangers with HiPS cannot wear armor heavier than Light.
You might not be the best sneaker, but you can definitely benefit a lot from HiPS versus enemies that have low or no Spot/Listen skills.
Plus the Ranger spell Camouflage raises your Hide by +10.
In the end, it's a free bonus. Not as effective on a STR build, but it definitely works.
Shadowdancer
On Shadowdancers, most stop at level 5 at best. For Defensive Roll and Improved Uncanny Dodge.
Shadowdancer gives you no Rogue skills, no Sneak Attack, no UMD.
Shadow Evade is very very weak and short-lived.
It lasts 3 rounds per use, for 3 uses total. That's 9 rounds at best.
Assassin on the contrary, gives you Sneak Attack, Rogue skills and UMD.
But also Ghostly Visage for 1 minute per class level, and Greater Invisibility which is Invisibility plus Displacement (50% concealment) also for 1 min/per class level.
Rogue 13-15/Assassin 8-9/Invisible Blade 5, is far better as a build. Going Shadowdancer 8 or 10 gives you nothing great.
Especially when that Damage Reduction 10 they get from Shadow Evade, is equivalent to a Stoneskin spell, from a scroll or wand or caster.
Barbarians
About Barbarians, there is an ability cap at +12. Which means that if you have a +6 STR item and Rage for +8 STR (Mighty Rage), you don't get +14 STR, you get only +12.
Rage is also short-lived and a Fighter/Frenzied Berserker is better than a Barbarian/Frenzerker.
Or even a pure Barbarian. Since your Rage has a cap, unfortunately.
Pure Fighter does more reliable damage, with Focus/Specialization etc.
Especially a Fighter/Weapon Master, which even against crit-immune enemies, a critical threat is still an automatic hit.
Plus the Fighter has better armor, Tower Shields, stuff like Combat Expertise etc etc.
Those are permanent or toggable bonuses with no duration or giving a penalty like Rage.
Finally, I never said I followed any guide. If you read the Swashbuckler's class description, you'd soon realize how lackluster the class features are after level 3-5.
Most people on forums, character builds and online, go with Swash5/Duelist10/Rogue X or Fighter, or even Weapon Master.
The best feature of the Swashbuckler is Insightful Strike, for Combat Insight builds.
After that, it has no class features worth speaking of, compared to other classes.
What I'm talking about are observations, discussions, testing and general experience on build advises and what I've seen online and did myself.
Class features aren't an obscure secret. You can read them on NwN2Wiki and compare them.
It is objective, because such things can be tested, measured and compared. It is math.
Preference doesn't change an objective fact which has been tested countless times.