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Thoughts on EE Content

GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
I just finished with the new EE content. I bit the bullet and got both Dorn and Hexxat and did my first ever evil playthrough just for the sake of using them. It was surprisingly satisfying. With that said, my (very late) review:

Hexxat:

Pros:

(1) New cutscenes were well done and were a welcome surprise
(2) I really enjoyed plundering the tombs. The layout was great, the layout made you think, the characters inside were interesting, and the combat was fun.
(3) A pure thief who ends up with a dozen spike traps? Game breakingly fun!

Cons:

(1) You can't RP and take her with anything but an evil party! She straight up murders an innocent girl in front of you. When you call her on it she shrugs it off, and gets snippy with you if you don't write off Clara's death as meaningless. The *only* way I could justify taking her was with an evil character who held onto her coffin/bag of holding to keep her in line and who expressed horror at the notion of her giving up her vampirism (thus making her useless to him). I tried taking her in a second party and just couldn't bring myself to do it, because the dialogue choices would require me to stop RPing the character...which defeats the purpose of the game. What is the point of new content if you can't use it?

* Solution: Only Clara could go through the barrier, so why remove it? Have her go through the barrier, and leave the party behind. Let the player see Clara die. Then Hexxat walks out and claims that she is the same person, and found what she was looking for.

Sure, a smart Charname (or even one of average intelligence) could call her out on the lie. But it creates enough of a suspension of disbelief for non arseholes to take her into the party.

(2) The character herself. You learn next to nothing about her. She is from Maztica...great? No talk of culture, customs, history, background...you learn nothing about her. When I read her epilogue my thought was "Ok...what the heck is this cult, why does she hate it so much...and what does this have to do with anything?" All I knew by the end of the game was that she was a vampire, a lesbian, and didn't like being a vampire...that's it.

(3) The quests had no new loot. Which kinda sucks. Because there are so many great new items in BG2EE, and none come out of her quest. Even things that are just fun...like the amulet of magic missile immunity. Even if it just ended with an upgrade of her cloak.

* L can't make her mortal like he promised. So he upgrades her cloak so it doesn't wreck her during daylight as a consolation prize. Boom! Done.

(4) She doesn't fit well. You fight so many vampires in the series. In ToB you come across a vampire who just assumes you will kill her even though you have a vampire in your party. That boggles the mind! It just seems weird. She also suffers from the Shapeshifter problem, in that she is a vampire who doesn't have the abilities of every other vampire you fight. Meaning it doesn't really feel like you have a vampire in your party.

(5) Missed opportunity. Every other EE NPC shows off a new kit that they added. Why not make her a shadowdancer? Just make her into a shade. Someone who is half-way between the prime and the plane of shadow. Rather than dying at the end of her quest, if she fulfills her wish she becomes a normal thief, just like how Dorn can lose his blackguard powers. Boom! Done! No awkward powers, no jarring 'why spare this obviously evil murderous vampire who killed a party member in front of me when I kill every other vampire for the same reason' issues. A tragic character who *does what every other EE NPC does and shows off a new kit*.


Score: 3/10
- Great new locations
- Alot of fun in the quests
- Bland, unexplained, jarring character
- Horrible way of introducing her into the party


------------------------------------------------------------------------

Dorn:

Pros:

(1) A powerful, useful, and non-overpowered character

(2) (Almost) great buildup of evil! In BG1EE anyone can take him in the party. Well, except a paladin, or some clerics, that is. He is on a quest for revenge against other evil people, and seems loyal enough to you. So why not make use of him and rid the realms of the other horrible people? It is only in BG2EE that his evil ramps up. And the devs explained it and showed his dissatisfaction in the situation. I would have liked it if the build up was a bit more gradual so a neutral charname could fall into it, but you can't have everything.

* I'd have liked to have recruited him by defending him against attack. Bounty Hunters after him, you come and join him in the fight and kill them. Then the tasks start...so it isn't you just meeting him and going "yeah, let's murder a priest." It's "hey, they are after me now too for helping him, and he's useful...ok, we'll kill one guy. In for a penny, in for a pound..."

(2) The final quest was a blast! The artwork was *amazing*, the fights were downright hard, and different from what I was used to. The waves on the beach, the sounds when you stand there? It felt like your character was in heaven. And getting to inscribe other names in the book of retribution? For the first time in any playthrough I felt like Saemon Harvarian finally *really* died. That was great. I'm just sad that nothing happened from putting the demon's name in the book. But that is probably a problem of dialogue not happening in time more than anything else.

(3) Great new loot. Both Dorn's sword and later the 2 suits of great armor.

(4) The epilogue fit, and went well with the story. It shows the bad end he came to without someone to keep him in check, which fit the character and the saga perfectly.

Score: 9/10
- A location that was superbly done
- A hard end game fight
- Great new loot
- A useful character who is worth taking
- Could have used more of a gradual slide into utter depravity so a neutral charname could fall alongside him

-------------

Raasad:

Cons:

(1) BG1EE he is just about completely worthless in a fight. Even at the end of the game all he is good for is having a sling and trying not to get killed. That is...really...bad.

(2) In BG2EE he 'just knew' that Algoroth was behind the Two Fold trust, without *any* proof. How did he know? That part made very little sense.

(3) No way to toggle off monk running speed, meaning that if you aren't careful he'll get himself killed

Pros:

(1) The new locations look great. The temple in BG1EE, the amphitheater, heretic temple, dwarven hold...all well done.

(2) Did I mention a dwarven hold? Finally! I loved it. It makes him a must have for any dwarven playthrough.

(3) Useful new loot (such as the monk gauntlets early in the game, which makes the Saemon Harvarian bug tolerable when using Raasad)

(4) He's a powerhouse by the end of the saga, but not gamebreakingly so

(5) Enjoyable dialogue, as he comes across as a sincerely good person, though not that bright.

Score: 8/10

- Great new locations, including a dwarven hold :D
- Well written dialogue
- Good loot
- Good story
- Horribly weak character in BG1EE, to the point where Garrik is a better choice (at least he can use wands!)

----------------

Neera:

Cons:

(1) The stoner elf. Just listening to him talk breaks any and all immersion. Just...damn.

(2) No mention by any druid or ranger about how the wild mage enclave messed with nature worse than anything else in the saga. Really Jaheira? No mention about how an entire section of forest, and the water that flows to other localities, has been completely and utterly corrupted by uncontrolled magic? Really?!

(3) The cat quest. Try it. You'll see.

(4) Her way of talking can get to some people, as she can sound modern. It doesn't bother me, but I can see how others would be.

Pros:

(1) Wild mages are fun! I'll never forget when a wild surge caused an exploding cow to kill half of Nashkel. Good times!

(2) More wizard fights, which are always welcome because they can be hard.

(3) I liked the arch villain. A wild mage in Thay hunting other wild mages, while hiding her secret? That was a nice twist.

(4) Neera comes across like a pretty realistic person, flaws and all. She was a well written character.

(5) While something of a (fun) liability in BG1EE, but BG2EE she turns into an amazing mage with a huge selection of lvl9 spells...so long as you don't wild surge.

(6) I like systems where magic is dangerous and shouldn't be thrown about without care or thought. The mechanic got that feel down great, where Neera can consistently do exactly what is needed to save the day, but at a risk.

Score: 9/10
- Locations were good, but not up to par with Raasad, Hexxat and Dorn
- Some interesting new loot (robe where you make everything wild magic? That is pretty cool, same with the Brick)
- Some tough fights, though not as new and interesting as what you see with Hexxat and Dorn, but still fun
- With the exception of the stoner elf, well written and well thought out character

---------------------------

Baeloth

Cons:

(1) Only in BG1EE!

(2) A bit...too powerful.

(3) No new quests

Pros:

(1) Some...dare I say it? Actual dialogue in BG1! For someone who can't have mods because of Iphone use, that alone makes him worth taking.

(2) GREAT voice acting.

(3) A bit...too powerful.

Score: 10/10
- Actual dialogue
- Worth taking as a character
- Best voice acting since we first heard Minsc
- Superbly well done easter egg
- Not enough of him

-------------------------------

Wilson

Cons:

(1) Too hard to get

(2) Not enough dialogue/banter

(3) No equipment! Add in a low dexterity, and high movement speed, and you have a recipe for disaster. I took him once, and he just kept dying. It got to the point where I was just feeling bad for the poor bear, as it felt inhumane to keep raising him just to see him die again. And I very rarely ever have another character die.

* Rings should fit anyone, so why not wear those? Why can't he have a necklace? Or an ion stone? If Wilson was supposed to be like a kensai, then why not allow him similar restrictions?

Pros:

(1) He is a bear.

(2) Good to have with a ranger or druid Charname, because...well...he is a bear.

Score: 2/10
- Good concept
- Poor execution



----------------------


Thank you for reading, please tell me why I am wrong.

NonnahswritershawneJuliusBorisovFlashburnCuvVakarianSionIVwubblecmorganBelgarathMTHdoggyDJKajuruBlackravenkaguanaWowo
«1

Comments

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 19,153
    Excellent analysis. @Grum! Just awesome.

    No cons for Dorn just grants a special :cookie:

    Grum
  • KingGhidorahKingGhidorah Member Posts: 200
    Good story, but I'm curious. Why is Baeloth the only one who adds "actual dialogue" to BG1? The rest of the EE NPC's offer it as well.

  • FlashburnFlashburn Member Posts: 1,727
    A lot of your criticisms and compliments match mine. That was pretty on-point.

    JuliusBorisovGrum
  • CuvCuv Member, Developer Posts: 2,535
  • necaradan666necaradan666 Member Posts: 9
    Great review I agree with most points.. besides neera, can't stand the way she talks. The problem with the new content is that it's not an optional install.

    Grum
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited August 2015
    Awesome review! :cookie:

    Yet to this day i wonder how exactly Hexxat made it into the game.

    Grum
  • MhamzaMhamza Member Posts: 228
    Brilliant review. Agree on all points, especially Dorn and Hexxat. I still wonder how Hexxat wasn't a shadowdancer.

    JuliusBorisovGrum
  • NaveenNaveen Member Posts: 81
    Grum said:



    Neera:

    (1) The stoner elf. Just listening to him talk breaks any and all immersion. Just...damn.

    (2) No mention by any druid or ranger about how the wild mage enclave messed with nature worse than anything else in the saga. Really Jaheira? No mention about how an entire section of forest, and the water that flows to other localities, has been completely and utterly corrupted by uncontrolled magic? Really?!

    Don't know about the stoner bit but about the immersion, yes (though I actually like her). I just want to point why, I think, Neera sounds modern. That "Really?!" is (one of) the answer. If you don't let her join you she tells you something like "Really!? Really!? Really!? People like you bolster my faith in strangers." That emphatic/exasperating 'Really?!" is a modern expression, and by modern I mean 21th century (possibly Internet and American?) culture. Also (that also applies to the other ee npcs) some of your answers in npcs conversations are snarky comebacks in contemporary English (i'd say American) wording. There is nothing wrong with that (and I love on-liners) like there is nothing wrong with a bit of salt, but it should no be overused.

    She uses other words and expressions that are a bit... off (modern, scientific or just odd): "inject a fist", "I'll be elbow deep", "really" (a lot),"That's me!", "second-degree burns", "Take a hike", "awesome", "I just kind of...", "you are a real pal", etcetera.

    Grum
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    edited August 2015

    Good story, but I'm curious. Why is Baeloth the only one who adds "actual dialogue" to BG1? The rest of the EE NPC's offer it as well.

    True, I should have mentioned that. I made a point of showing he had dialogue because he was an Easter Egg. But indeed, the *best* BG1EE party is: Charname, Dorn, Raasad, Neera, Baeloth, Imoen/Alora (if Charname can heal), or Branwen/Yeslick/Faldorn (If Charname is a thief)

    It gives some actual banter. It feels like you actually have party members rather than blank slates.

    * Best meaning by my personal taste and with the criteria only being talking.

  • DrHappyAngryDrHappyAngry Member Posts: 1,241
    I'm with you on most, but I felt more let down with Rasaad and Hexxat. I didn't particularly find Hexxat's tomb raiding quests very fun, and there wasn't any real pay off for doing them. I liked her concept, but agree she should have gotten the shadow dancer kit. She had some fun banter, though, especially with Dorn.

    With Rasaad, I thought the content for bg1 and TOB was pretty generic, and found the TOB content for him an utterly annoying slog. Which is a shame, his BG2 questline was really well done, had a decent amount of dialog and choices, and could play out a few ways.

    Oh, and the little girl from Neera's bg2 questline's voice acting was far more jarring than the stoner mage for me. I seriously wanted an option to give her to the Thayans, just so I don't have to hear her talk.

    Grum
  • NonnahswriterNonnahswriter Member Posts: 2,520

    Oh, and the little girl from Neera's bg2 questline's voice acting was far more jarring than the stoner mage for me. I seriously wanted an option to give her to the Thayans, just so I don't have to hear her talk.

    I hated that little girl's voice-acting. Ugh... Worst in the game.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,577
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    edited August 2015
    Great review overall. I played all the characters, but never finished any game yet so I still have a lot to see for myself.

    I have to say Hexxat fits quite well in neutral parties and even with some good character. Neera is fine with her. Jaheira doesn't like her, but tolerates her presence. Minsc has a ''conversation'' where boo convinces him that Hexxat is not a typical vampire and might be trusted. Minsc is good in the sense that he protects the weak, but he is quite tolerant. He even insist you keep Viconia when you rescue her. As a (crazy) ranger I feel he can recognize Hexxat's nature as a predator and can accept her in the same way he would accept a wolf, so long as she stays under control and does not pray on the weak or innocent. Hexxat does not kill a ''girl'' in the tomb. She kills a high-level rogue.

    I rather like the fact that she is not a kit. The problem with NPC with kits is that it robs the fun out of making your own character with that kit. I never made my own blackguard because I would rather get Dorn. And since I love shadowdancers, I would rather have my own charname be that kit. I like companions that have unique features not availbale to your main character (like hamsters).

    Kilivitz
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited August 2015
    It makes absolutely no sense that Minsc accepts vampires, they are evil and his racial enemy.

    NaveenNonnahswriterJatrrr
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,827
    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    GodKaiserHellKilivitz
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686

    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    The racial enemy gnoll in BG:EE makes sense because his part of the story line is saving Dynaheir, from gnolls.

    The racial enemy vampire in BG2:EE makes sense because that is one of the main enemies, and he is protecting CHARNAME and the rest of the party against them. If i remember right from the dialogues(hardly ever play him anymore) he does not like vampires at all. Minsc also has a very keen sense of character and can sense if people/creatures are evil or good, Hexxat is obviously as evil as they come, so why does he/Boo let that pass?

    It makes no sense that he will party with Hexxat, and I'm sure the only reason for him accepting Hexxat is that Minsc is quite the iconic character in Baldur's Gate and a lot of people wouldn't give him up if they had to chose between him or Hexxat.

  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,577
    SionIV said:

    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    The racial enemy gnoll in BG:EE makes sense because his part of the story line is saving Dynaheir, from gnolls.

    The racial enemy vampire in BG2:EE makes sense because that is one of the main enemies, and he is protecting CHARNAME and the rest of the party against them. If i remember right from the dialogues(hardly ever play him anymore) he does not like vampires at all. Minsc also has a very keen sense of character and can sense if people/creatures are evil or good, Hexxat is obviously as evil as they come, so why does he/Boo let that pass?
    I could almost agree with you of it wasn't for the fact, Minsc doesn't know that one of the main enemies is a vampires. This is you attaching you're omnipresence about the world to create a justifiable reason for him making the change from gnolls to vampires.

    Unless I miss a part in jon's dungeon that reveals he is actually working along side vampires, @semiticgod comment seem far more likely to me. Now I didn't pay much attention to "racial enemies" thing, but if at the beginning of bg2, if Minsc racial enemy actually changes from gnoll to vampires after and only after the characters find out about bhodi. Then I can agree fully with you. But if at the very beginning of the first dungeon, I check and see that his racial enemies are vampires with no logical explanation why... I can't agree with ya here.

    GodKaiserHell
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited August 2015

    SionIV said:

    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    The racial enemy gnoll in BG:EE makes sense because his part of the story line is saving Dynaheir, from gnolls.

    The racial enemy vampire in BG2:EE makes sense because that is one of the main enemies, and he is protecting CHARNAME and the rest of the party against them. If i remember right from the dialogues(hardly ever play him anymore) he does not like vampires at all. Minsc also has a very keen sense of character and can sense if people/creatures are evil or good, Hexxat is obviously as evil as they come, so why does he/Boo let that pass?
    I could almost agree with you of it wasn't for the fact, Minsc doesn't know that one of the main enemies is a vampires. This is you attaching you're omnipresence about the world to create a justifiable reason for him making the change from gnolls to vampires.

    Unless I miss a part in jon's dungeon that reveals he is actually working along side vampires, @semiticgod comment seem far more likely to me. Now I didn't pay much attention to "racial enemies" thing, but if at the beginning of bg2, if Minsc racial enemy actually changes from gnoll to vampires after and only after the characters find out about bhodi. Then I can agree fully with you. But if at the very beginning of the first dungeon, I check and see that his racial enemies are vampires with no logical explanation why... I can't agree with ya here.
    The reason that he has vampire as racial enemy at the start of the game is that it would get really confusing if the game itself changed it at a certain point, it might not even be possible to change it. So they went ahead and gave it to him from the start, and his racial makes perfect sense. Secondly we don't even know what happened before SoA when you got captured, you might have been hunted down by vampires and taken to Irenicus. Dynaheir died when you guys got captured, what if it was a vampire that killed her?

    Minsc hates vampires.
    Minsc racial enemy is a vampire.
    Minsc likes Hexxat.
    Hexxat is a vampire and her actions are disturbing and evil.

    It makes no sense.

  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    Naveen said:

    Odd, I always thought Minsc changed because the creatures that captured you were vampires (and, for that reason, vampires killed Dynaheir). Something about the intro "they came as you rested. Figures cloaked in mist". I actually thought that was "common knowledge" (there is a vampire in Irenicus' dungeon and seemed reasonable to me they were the only ones powerful enough to capture you), but know I think perhaps that's something I made up.

    Many peoeple in the Baldur's Gate community had the idea that it was the shadow thieves. Baldur's Gate Trilogy add a cutscene once you move from BG1 to BG2 in which you are captured by the shadow thieves. It could be either of the two.

    Naveen
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,577
    edited August 2015
    SionIV said:

    SionIV said:

    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    The racial enemy gnoll in BG:EE makes sense because his part of the story line is saving Dynaheir, from gnolls.

    The racial enemy vampire in BG2:EE makes sense because that is one of the main enemies, and he is protecting CHARNAME and the rest of the party against them. If i remember right from the dialogues(hardly ever play him anymore) he does not like vampires at all. Minsc also has a very keen sense of character and can sense if people/creatures are evil or good, Hexxat is obviously as evil as they come, so why does he/Boo let that pass?
    I could almost agree with you of it wasn't for the fact, Minsc doesn't know that one of the main enemies is a vampires. This is you attaching you're omnipresence about the world to create a justifiable reason for him making the change from gnolls to vampires.

    Unless I miss a part in jon's dungeon that reveals he is actually working along side vampires, @semiticgod comment seem far more likely to me. Now I didn't pay much attention to "racial enemies" thing, but if at the beginning of bg2, if Minsc racial enemy actually changes from gnoll to vampires after and only after the characters find out about bhodi. Then I can agree fully with you. But if at the very beginning of the first dungeon, I check and see that his racial enemies are vampires with no logical explanation why... I can't agree with ya here.
    The reason that he has vampire as racial enemy at the start of the game is that it would get really confusing if the game itself changed it at a certain point, it might not even be possible to change it. So they went ahead and gave it to him from the start, and his racial makes perfect sense. Secondly we don't even know what happened before SoA when you got captured, you might have been hunted down by vampires and taken to Irenicus. Dynaheir died when you guys got captured, what if it was a vampire that killed her?

    Minsc hates vampires.
    Minsc racial enemy is a vampire.
    Minsc likes Hexxat.
    Hexxat is an evil vampire and her actions are disturbing and evil to the core.

    It makes no sense.
    I'm not arguing that Minsc liking hexxat makes sense, I never used them together. Hell I've only read one conversation online between the two and with the help of the charname she convienced him to like her by recognizing that bpo was a space hamster. Beyond that I have no comment, and can only go on what you say.

    With that said, you're making assumption and using omnipresent knowledge to create a connection. Again @semiticgod gave a logical reason why it was change, simply to make mi sc stronger, since in SoA, gnolls are a joke and keeping them is racial enemy would be a joke, especially since vampires are now more common of a enemy and are much harder to kill.

    How hard the actual switch in game would be? I don't know, the closest I ever got to programming was making websites using only folders and notepads, Dreamweaver for my second website, and using kizmit for level design in unreal editor. So I won't even make an assumption and try to guess.I'm a painter not a programmer after all.

    You're right, we don't know, so all you're doing is making an assumption. Unless you have a link, or proof by a developer of the game on that is the reason why his racial enemy is vampires, you are just using your omnipresent knowledge as the player to assume why his racial enemy is vampires because he is protecting charname and the rest of the party against them. Especially when BG 2 has no evidence pointing towards they gabt that they know that vampires have any allied dealings with Irenicus at all until half way through the game.

    So now, an assumption doesn't work here.

    Edit
    Naveen said:

    Odd, I always thought Minsc changed because the creatures that captured you were vampires (and, for that reason, vampires killed Dynaheir). Something about the intro "they came as you rested. Figures cloaked in mist". I actually thought that was "common knowledge" (there is a vampire in Irenicus' dungeon and seemed reasonable to me they were the only ones powerful enough to capture you), but know I think perhaps that's something I made up.

    You also find shadowthieves in his dungeon and they attack you, what does that tell you?

    That descriptions pretty much fit any thief, assassin, or rogues favorite entrance and movement. Have you ever played the thief series? How many times do you see the description of a cloaked figure cloaked in most.

    GodKaiserHell
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    edited August 2015

    SionIV said:

    SionIV said:

    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    The racial enemy gnoll in BG:EE makes sense because his part of the story line is saving Dynaheir, from gnolls.

    The racial enemy vampire in BG2:EE makes sense because that is one of the main enemies, and he is protecting CHARNAME and the rest of the party against them. If i remember right from the dialogues(hardly ever play him anymore) he does not like vampires at all. Minsc also has a very keen sense of character and can sense if people/creatures are evil or good, Hexxat is obviously as evil as they come, so why does he/Boo let that pass?
    I could almost agree with you of it wasn't for the fact, Minsc doesn't know that one of the main enemies is a vampires. This is you attaching you're omnipresence about the world to create a justifiable reason for him making the change from gnolls to vampires.

    Unless I miss a part in jon's dungeon that reveals he is actually working along side vampires, @semiticgod comment seem far more likely to me. Now I didn't pay much attention to "racial enemies" thing, but if at the beginning of bg2, if Minsc racial enemy actually changes from gnoll to vampires after and only after the characters find out about bhodi. Then I can agree fully with you. But if at the very beginning of the first dungeon, I check and see that his racial enemies are vampires with no logical explanation why... I can't agree with ya here.
    The reason that he has vampire as racial enemy at the start of the game is that it would get really confusing if the game itself changed it at a certain point, it might not even be possible to change it. So they went ahead and gave it to him from the start, and his racial makes perfect sense. Secondly we don't even know what happened before SoA when you got captured, you might have been hunted down by vampires and taken to Irenicus. Dynaheir died when you guys got captured, what if it was a vampire that killed her?

    Minsc hates vampires.
    Minsc racial enemy is a vampire.
    Minsc likes Hexxat.
    Hexxat is an evil vampire and her actions are disturbing and evil to the core.

    It makes no sense.
    I'm not arguing that Minsc liking hexxat makes sense, I never used them together. Hell I've only read one conversation online between the two and with the help of the charname she convienced him to like her by recognizing that bpo was a space hamster. Beyond that I have no comment, and can only go on what you say.

    With that said, you're making assumption and using omnipresent knowledge to create a connection. Again @semiticgod gave a logical reason why it was change, simply to make mi sc stronger, since in SoA, gnolls are a joke and keeping them is racial enemy would be a joke, especially since vampires are now more common of a enemy and are much harder to kill.

    How hard the actual switch in game would be? I don't know, the closest I ever got to programming was making websites using only folders and notepads, Dreamweaver for my second website, and using kizmit for level design in unreal editor. So I won't even make an assumption and try to guess.I'm a painter not a programmer after all.

    You're right, we don't know, so all you're doing is making an assumption. Unless you have a link, or proof by a developer of the game on that is the reason why his racial enemy is vampires, you are just using your omnipresent knowledge as the player to assume why his racial enemy is vampires because he is protecting charname and the rest of the party against them. Especially when BG 2 has no evidence pointing towards they gabt that they know that vampires have any allied dealings with Irenicus at all until half way through the game.

    So now, an assumption doesn't work here.
    I apologize that you had to wake up on the wrong side of the bed today, I know that feeling, it really sucks. I think it would do the both of us some good to not quote each other from now on.

  • shawneshawne Member Posts: 3,239
    Minsc has 8 Intelligence and 6 Wisdom. Presumably the only way he can tell a vampire from a beholder is if CHARNAME or Aerie point and say "VAMPIRE OVER THERE!"

    NonnahswriterelminsterKilivitz
  • SionIVSionIV Member Posts: 2,686
    shawne said:

    Minsc has 8 Intelligence and 6 Wisdom. Presumably the only way he can tell a vampire from a beholder is if CHARNAME or Aerie point and say "VAMPIRE OVER THERE!"

    This is why he has Boo to guide him :wink:

    NimransemiticgodNonnahswriterGrum
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,577
    SionIV said:

    SionIV said:

    SionIV said:

    I think the devs just gave Minsc the vampire racial enemy to make him more powerful in BG2. His old enemy was gnolls, just so that he'd be good at rescuing Dynaheir. I don't think they ever based Minsc's racial enemy on RP reasons.

    The racial enemy gnoll in BG:EE makes sense because his part of the story line is saving Dynaheir, from gnolls.

    The racial enemy vampire in BG2:EE makes sense because that is one of the main enemies, and he is protecting CHARNAME and the rest of the party against them. If i remember right from the dialogues(hardly ever play him anymore) he does not like vampires at all. Minsc also has a very keen sense of character and can sense if people/creatures are evil or good, Hexxat is obviously as evil as they come, so why does he/Boo let that pass?
    I could almost agree with you of it wasn't for the fact, Minsc doesn't know that one of the main enemies is a vampires. This is you attaching you're omnipresence about the world to create a justifiable reason for him making the change from gnolls to vampires.

    Unless I miss a part in jon's dungeon that reveals he is actually working along side vampires, @semiticgod comment seem far more likely to me. Now I didn't pay much attention to "racial enemies" thing, but if at the beginning of bg2, if Minsc racial enemy actually changes from gnoll to vampires after and only after the characters find out about bhodi. Then I can agree fully with you. But if at the very beginning of the first dungeon, I check and see that his racial enemies are vampires with no logical explanation why... I can't agree with ya here.
    The reason that he has vampire as racial enemy at the start of the game is that it would get really confusing if the game itself changed it at a certain point, it might not even be possible to change it. So they went ahead and gave it to him from the start, and his racial makes perfect sense. Secondly we don't even know what happened before SoA when you got captured, you might have been hunted down by vampires and taken to Irenicus. Dynaheir died when you guys got captured, what if it was a vampire that killed her?

    Minsc hates vampires.
    Minsc racial enemy is a vampire.
    Minsc likes Hexxat.
    Hexxat is an evil vampire and her actions are disturbing and evil to the core.

    It makes no sense.
    I'm not arguing that Minsc liking hexxat makes sense, I never used them together. Hell I've only read one conversation online between the two and with the help of the charname she convienced him to like her by recognizing that bpo was a space hamster. Beyond that I have no comment, and can only go on what you say.

    With that said, you're making assumption and using omnipresent knowledge to create a connection. Again @semiticgod gave a logical reason why it was change, simply to make mi sc stronger, since in SoA, gnolls are a joke and keeping them is racial enemy would be a joke, especially since vampires are now more common of a enemy and are much harder to kill.

    How hard the actual switch in game would be? I don't know, the closest I ever got to programming was making websites using only folders and notepads, Dreamweaver for my second website, and using kizmit for level design in unreal editor. So I won't even make an assumption and try to guess.I'm a painter not a programmer after all.

    You're right, we don't know, so all you're doing is making an assumption. Unless you have a link, or proof by a developer of the game on that is the reason why his racial enemy is vampires, you are just using your omnipresent knowledge as the player to assume why his racial enemy is vampires because he is protecting charname and the rest of the party against them. Especially when BG 2 has no evidence pointing towards they gabt that they know that vampires have any allied dealings with Irenicus at all until half way through the game.

    So now, an assumption doesn't work here.
    I apologize that you had to wake up on the wrong side of the bed today, I know that feeling, it really sucks. I think it would do the both of us some good to not quote each other from now on.
    What? Because I don't agree with you...ever? Look i respect your opinion, i respect everyone; despite how aggressive I can seem sometimes.

    Little known as secret, you can end any debate with me just say, "lets agree to disagree," and not insulting my mama >.>

    Or Viconia...

    Or Dragons...

    Or a dragonfied Viconia...

    Mmm tasty... Wait, where was I?

    If you don't agree with me, then speak your mind, we might go back and forth, but I'm not taking anything to heart, and I normally think the same of my opposition.

    But eh, its your choice.

    GodKaiserHell
  • AionZAionZ Member Posts: 3,026
    Just want to make a point that despite Minsc's racial enemy being vampires, he does not object to working with Bodhi in Chapter 3. Either he doesn't recognize them for what they are, or he's not opposed to them the same way as Keldorn and Mazzy are.

    DragonKing
  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,827
    A ranger is supposed to choose a racial enemy at level 1, and I think depending on the edition, also pick other enemies on later levels. The racial enemy would reflect what a ranger has trained him or herself to fight. Unless Minsc fought Gnolls before you meet him in BG1, or vampires before you meet him in BG2, his racial enemy shouldn't be what it is.

    I realize he has reason to hate gnolls and vampires both, but he should gain that racial enemy after he meets them, instead of before.

    DragonKingFrancois
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452
    SionIV said:


    Minsc hates vampires.
    Minsc racial enemy is a vampire.
    Minsc likes Hexxat.
    Hexxat is a vampire and her actions are disturbing and evil.

    It makes no sense.

    He doesn't like Hexxat. He just accept that she is not an enemy and different from usual vampires. Charname likes her and trust her, so it forces Minsc to reassess his opinion of this vampire.

    The way I see it:
    Minsc doesn't like vampires
    Hexxat is a vampire
    Minsc trusts Charname
    Minsc and Charname are on a quest to find the murderer of Dynaheir
    Charname is friend with Hexxat
    Minsc has to deal with it.

    Favored enemies means he is skilled in fighting those creature, not that he's going to consider all of them enemies 100% of the time. Suppose Minsc's favored enemy was Drow, he still wouldn't attack Viconia or Drizzt on sight, if Charname trusted them. If his favored enemy was Ogre he might still trust Madulf.

    Hexxat is labeled as NE, but in my opinion she is the least evil of the evil companions. Hexxat doesn't enjoy crushing others and has no lust for power and she is not antagonistic. Viconia and Sarevok are more evil in my opinion and even these fit ok with some neutral/good parties and can even get their alignement changed. If a good Charname can redeem the guy who killed his father, certainly Minsc could accept to work with one special vampire for a while.




    DragonKingsemiticgod
  • DragonKingDragonKing Member Posts: 1,577
    @Francois wait Sarevok can have his alignment changed? I did not know this....

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