Mage Kits
DragonKing
Member Posts: 1,977
So, here is another one from good ol' Dragon King!
What made bioware do the mage kits the way they are? To this day I still can't wrap my head around it, they all seem half done and uninspiring. Block out a school of magic and get a extra spell slot, the end...
I'll emit, I don't know that much about DnD roleplaying, I mean I grew up on pokemon and o was the only kid I new that played it around where I lived. So the chances to play any table to DnD were about the same as playing tabletop Shadowrun, or world of darkness... Nonexistent.
But even if it is in 2ed, it still makes no sense to me... Why would;
Any mage do the same amount of damage as a invoker with Invocation/Evocation magic?
Any conjure the same number of creatures as a conjurer?
I could keep going with each school but you get my point. I would assume if someone took a lot, you'd gain more then just spell slots, especially when the ingame magic itself is very... Limiting...to say the list. Despite only playing mages -coughwildcough- and sorcerers, I feel no reason to choose any kit other then the one that doesn't limit you completely and still gives you the slot.
Even from a role playing component, the kit choices barely hold any affect. If I want to be a evil necromancer, I could do it with a general mage, be just as evil, focus on the same spells without the label "necromancer" being on my character sheet. Hell, the kit descriptions don't even change when you look at the 'information " page. You still walk the same path as the "rp'd necro without being as limited.
Heck, I looked at some of the other class kita, and some even have freaking special abilities and passive abilities that seperates them from each other. I get that mages cast spells, so specialist shouldn't also get special active abilities, but yea... There is no real trade off, but there is a real limitor.
So, someone please enlighten me here.
What made bioware do the mage kits the way they are? To this day I still can't wrap my head around it, they all seem half done and uninspiring. Block out a school of magic and get a extra spell slot, the end...
I'll emit, I don't know that much about DnD roleplaying, I mean I grew up on pokemon and o was the only kid I new that played it around where I lived. So the chances to play any table to DnD were about the same as playing tabletop Shadowrun, or world of darkness... Nonexistent.
But even if it is in 2ed, it still makes no sense to me... Why would;
Any mage do the same amount of damage as a invoker with Invocation/Evocation magic?
Any conjure the same number of creatures as a conjurer?
I could keep going with each school but you get my point. I would assume if someone took a lot, you'd gain more then just spell slots, especially when the ingame magic itself is very... Limiting...to say the list. Despite only playing mages -coughwildcough- and sorcerers, I feel no reason to choose any kit other then the one that doesn't limit you completely and still gives you the slot.
Even from a role playing component, the kit choices barely hold any affect. If I want to be a evil necromancer, I could do it with a general mage, be just as evil, focus on the same spells without the label "necromancer" being on my character sheet. Hell, the kit descriptions don't even change when you look at the 'information " page. You still walk the same path as the "rp'd necro without being as limited.
Heck, I looked at some of the other class kita, and some even have freaking special abilities and passive abilities that seperates them from each other. I get that mages cast spells, so specialist shouldn't also get special active abilities, but yea... There is no real trade off, but there is a real limitor.
So, someone please enlighten me here.
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"True" Wizard kits are more along the lines of Academicians, Amazon Sorceresses, Anagakoks, Militant Wizards, (Arcane) Mystics, Patricians, Peasant Wizards, Savage Wizards, Witches and Wu Jens. As described within the AD&D second edition's Complete Wizard's Handbook.
So, yeah... instead of lazily creating pointless kits for them (and thus wasting all of this class precious kit slots), Black Isle should have just implemented a "sub menu" for choosing magic schools at character creation in a similar fashion of how Rangers pick their racial enemies.
For example, a wild mage at least has a chance to have wild surges on their basic casting. There is a chance for something strange to happen, bases on the concept of a wild mage via BG play if them.I would expect a Abjurer's protective spells to last more rounds than the exact same spell casted by a invoker, or at least be able to cast protective spells that would normally be only self targeting if used by any other mage, kit, or Sorcerer; to be castable on anyone by a Abjurer! They specialize in their school, that means that they would be extremely focused and hell, on another level in that school compared to their peers who focused on another school or no school at all.
A conjurer for example, if the max pet limit is 5, then a conjurer should be able to summon 7 or ever other class have their limit brought down to two or 3. Hell even just add two or 3 summon or conjuration spells that only a specialized conjurer can even use.
Saying, "conjurer lose very few spells" isn't a kit problem, its a spell choice problem in general. Giving kits more disadvantages won't fix that only revising the spells themselves will.
Edit,
Let me clarify, spells all have they base like they do now, a specialized mage tweaks the base of the school of spells they specialize i n, just like how they are barred from other schools. People call invoker the worst specialization because its barred from one of the strongest schools of magic mechanic wiae. Yet, a fire ball from an invoker axts just like a fire ball from any other character or a wand.
Causing the spell to do a little more damage, or giving it a chance to bypass immunities because its coming from a invoker seems like something that a specialist would be able to do. If one kit is simply strong because the school spells that it opposes aren't that powerful, that isn't that specialization problem. If you switch the conjurer and invoker:s opposig school, would you still think the way you do about the conjurer?
I do agree with them making the specializations more important, but it shouldn't make them more powerful, it should just force us to sacrifice more, to gain something else.
There are many things they have ignored from D&D, like bards are supposed to have level 7/8 spells.
[edited] : When you hit level 24+ there is absolutely no difference between the sorcerer, wild mage or normal mage. All 3 of them can abuse Wish to gain unlimited spells.
I'm not denying the fact that some changes could make a kit stronger, like having the ability to cast stone skin on a berserker or barbarian, which only a transmuter would be able to do at all! But other things like giving more damage or even a secondary burn effect to spells like fireball or a Pierce effect to bypass some magical defense on flame arrow which only a invoker would be able to do which seems more common sense since its their spells that people seem to favor the least for multiple reason and one of the biggest being a wand does the same job, just as good but doesn't take a spell slot so you stack up on x/y/z more important spells. I'm just going to reply to this because I don't feel like arguing who is more powerful, since that's not even the poiny this topic.
1) I've never reloaded millions of times playing wild mage, and its my most played class. I love how people over exaggerate that. Vast majority of my reloada came from my own mistakes, not the wild surges.
2) the very thing that makes wild mage fatal is the very thing that MAKES IT DIFFERENT! You can argue all you want how it can destroy your gold, or kill your team, or put a end to your no reload run, but it doesn't change the fact that the wild surge mechanic is part of the reason why wild mage is different from every other specialization. That is the key component that seperates its, for some people its a incentive to play it. A lot of people don't like it because of that very fact, and that's just fine. Not everything is going to meant everyones interest or taste.
3) and not playing the game the way the developers meant it to be played? OH FREAKING PLEASE! We cross that line the second we choose to put mods in our game! We cross that line the second we take advantage of cheese tactics, or exploit abilities because they go a step beyond what they were meant to. I remember areading a while back you could get 100% chaos Shields stacked simply by putting them in CHAINED contingency!. If I start dropping every current exploit that's still I'm the game, reloading after getting a endgame affect doesn't even compete. Some classes lose more then other and what they get in return doesn't even compete with lisig key spells in a game where its all about cc and disabling. Then question it, don't just accept it! I'm pretty sure abusing wish to gain unlimited spells isn't the way developers meant this game to be played.
Explain it to me, the magic system itself does have flaws, fixing the magic system DOESNT FIX THE LACK OF INCENTIVES BEHIND CHOOSIG A SPECIALIZATIONS. if every spell in the game was straight even, equal usefulness on a general mage, and then yuochose a specialization. Meaning you focus on that school, on that world of magic in youre studies above others.this means that spells of that shoild have a mpre potent reaction from you then every other mage capable of casting that exact same spell!
Four artist of equal skill level skill level stands before you! They each chose to take four different specializations; oils, water colors, acrylic, and gauche. Now you commission these painters to do 4 paintings each, 1 in all 4 mediums. The paintings that the artist did in the medium that they didn't specialize won't be on the same playing field in technique, control, or rendering of the person who specialized in said medium.
That's what these kits are missing, that attach a pretty name to something, but didn't give it the technique, and the control that would come from one who actually specialized.
Still, I agree a stronger differentiation between schools would be cool, maybe two opposition schools for each school instead of one (which was actually the case for a few schools in the original BG1), whether or not offset by another advantage.
Yea one of my flaws if I don't remember something fully I might not mention it... Heck I spent a week debating whether or not to even make this post because of that.
There is a reason I'm not studying to be a doctor, or lawyer, or any professional where memory has to be up there. I mean shoot, I'm a figurative artist and can't remember the name of the muscles or bones in the body. One of my art instructors always eats me alive for that. I still don't know how Mr Disney remembers all that ish!
Don't get mad at people just because their advice doesn't work for you. I was just trying to help. I'm sorry I can't.
That's two assumptions you made, and both are incorrect. The first assumption is taking this thread as some kind of mod request thread. I asked a question on a conceptual level, what they are suppose to be vs what they are implemented as. The spells and magic system possess problems OF THERE OWN! Fxing them doesn't fix the lack of diversity behind the mage specializations. If you balance out the spell schools themselves, great you got one problem fix. I questioned the reasoning and conceptual thought behind the kits and then leaving them empty. I'm not trying to sound rude here, but I'm not asking for a solution, I was looking for a thought process that goes beyond just being gamers. It's like the whole mages spell book topic I made. Some people couldn't conceptualize beyond its just fantasy.
Your second assumption is that I'm mad, sorry but I'm actually not. Can I get aggressive when I debate, yes I can, but I have no reason what so ever to be mad and advice usually is helpful when it's in context of what is being discusses, or a joke. No one gave bad advice, if I was looking for it or if i was asking for help. The problem here is again I wasn't either, I was asking for insight and telling to use a mod or that arcane casters are already power is not insight.
You've actually helped me before when I did ask for it, but this isn't that type of discussion.
Abj - WIS 15
Conj - CON 15
Div - WIS 16
Ench - CHA 16
Ill - DEX 16
Inv - CON 16
Nec - WIS 16
Tra - DEX 15
If you're looking for some deeper rational behind why they work the way they do, its probably nothing more significant than just mundane time and resource management... throwing specialisations on as "kits" allows the appearance of greater diversity, without the investment required to fully differentiate them.
As @subtledoctor 's comments above (and discussion with any other modder) will demonstrate, it's a time intensive process to make these things happen, and the likelihood is that some other issue was given priority in the development process.
1) Create an illusionist with Blindness memorized
2) Jump to Ulgoth's Beard
3) Ctrl+J to Shandalar's position.
4) Save
5) Continue casting Blindness on Shandalar (reloading as necessary) until you blind him.
6) Redo steps 1-5 as a non-illusionist mage/sorcerer
Shandalar has a save vs spell of 0, and blindness doesn't give any negative or positive bonus to its opponents chance to save. So he should always save against it. But if you are an illusionist he wont (it will take some time before you can blind him though given your chances of doing so).
Personally I think between racial restrictions, stat requirements, bonuses, and penalties I think the various specialist mage types are fairly varied. Though I personally wouldn't mind seeing more mods that had mage kit specific items in particular.