10+ Party Slots

TvrtkoSvrdlar

So, apparently, this is a thing now:
https://github.com/lynxlynxlynx/gemrb-mods/tree/master/10pp

@TrentOster, any chance we can get a DLC with something similar once you guys finish SoD?

SionIV

Why would you even want 10 characters at once? It would make the game very easy difficulty wise and very complicated when it comes to management of the team. You also remove the choice in who to pick for your party, something that is a big part of the game, your choices. Imagine sharing experience with 9 other characters in BG:EE, one xvart would give 1.5 experience points, a kobold wouldn't even give a single point.

Just thinking about the problems you would have when you try to navigate all 10 of them through a small space or corridor, gives me shivers, the pathfinding would be a nightmare.

Flaming Fist Officer - Halt! Who goes there?
CHARNAME - We're the party of CHARNAME.
Flaming Fist Officer - Party? Hah! You mean army, no?

FinneousPJ

@SionIV It would almost certainly make the game harder, not easier. 10 low levels chars are worse than 6 mid level ones.

SionIV

FinneousPJ said:

@SionIV It would almost certainly make the game harder, not easier. 10 low levels chars are worse than 6 mid level ones.

It would only until you hit level 2-3 and then it would be a breeze. It would completely break BG2:EE with all the quest experience flying around. There is enough experience in BG:EE so that every party member would reach 120 000 - 130 000 experience and that would let almost all of them reach the highest level.

It's only at the start the game is harder when you have more people.

JuliusBorisov

SionIV said:

Why would you even want 10 characters at once?

A choice.

billbisco

See the request forum. This has been posted there. 10 party members would make the game more fun as we can get all the juicy dialogues from more people. This should definitely be made as moddable. Not merely 10 though, it should be moddable up to an undefined number.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

@SionIV
Personally, I'd play with a party of 7 or 8.

@billbisco
I know people keep asking for something similar, but this is the first time (that I know of) that someone has managed to make a stable 'mod' which expands the maximum party size without choking the rest of the game to a standstill.

Regardless, I'd pay good money to have this as a DLC for the Enhanced Editions.

I don't know the ins and outs of scripting, but I'm pretty sure Beamdog could make this happen, all it would take is time. The way it's been explained to me (in an earlier thread) is that it's more of a drawn-out nuisance than a technical challenge to go back and update/rewrite the code to take into account 'partymember X' instead of 'partymember 1-6'.

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but it *can* be done, and I'm pretty sure a $10 DLC for 10+ parties would make Beamdog a ton of money. Those who are against the idea can simply opt out and not purchase the content, though I have a hunch that they'd be in the minority.

Just something for Trent and the gang to consider post-SoD, before they bite into another huge project.

GodKaiserHell

 

billbisco

@GodKaiserHell You need to look up the 10 party mod. It modifies scripts in the existing game, mods included.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

@GodKaiserHell
No clue what point you're trying to make, but if you're against the idea, no one's forcing you to participate in the thread.

Thanks for the bump, though!

atcDave

I most often adventure with 3-5 characters. But I would LOVE to have the option of a bigger party. I think it would make for a fascinating play through.

Especially IWD; ten player created characters... Somewhere between dream come true and total nightmare...

CrevsDaak

The mod is for GemRB (which is another implementation of the game's engine), not the Infinity Engine (the engine BG:EE and friends actually run on).

billbisco said:

GodKaiserHell You need to look up the 10 party mod. It modifies scripts in the existing game, mods included.

TvrtkoSvrdlar said:

billbisco
I know people keep asking for something similar, but this is the first time (that I know of) that someone has managed to make a stable 'mod' which expands the maximum party size without choking the rest of the game to a standstill.

Regardless, I'd pay good money to have this as a DLC for the Enhanced Editions.

I don't know the ins and outs of scripting, but I'm pretty sure Beamdog could make this happen, all it would take is time. The way it's been explained to me (in an earlier thread) is that it's more of a drawn-out nuisance than a technical challenge to go back and update/rewrite the code to take into account 'partymember X' instead of 'partymember 1-6'.

Yeah, it's a pain in the ass, but it *can* be done, and I'm pretty sure a $10 DLC for 10+ parties would make Beamdog a ton of money. Those who are against the idea can simply opt out and not purchase the content, though I have a hunch that they'd be in the minority.

Just something for Trent and the gang to consider post-SoD, before they bite into another huge project.

The mod modifies the scripts, yes (and I tell you it very probably might break on mod-added scripts), but the GemRB engine was previously modified to handle up to 10 party members (something that the Infinity Engine currently doesn't do).

With this mod, there wouldn't be a need to update the existing scripts (save for 1 or 2 rare exceptions the mod is unable to handle), but yes, it's going to be a pain in the ass since a rather big part of the game's engine (the Infinity Engine) will have to be re-written to work with 10 party members (because the limit is hardcoded in the IE (meaning you couldn't even change it by hex editing the executable), whereas in GemRB it's softcoded, meaning that you can change it's value from a .INI file).

/rant

Also, instead of making Feature Requests here, go ahead, install GemRB and have fun with 10 party members today (full satisfaction due to incomplete engine implementation not guaranteed )

DJKajuru

Well, I understand that it's something you would like done to give you a different experience - but DnD'wise it sounds really unlikely to happen - adventuring parties with more than six people are really rare . Actually , only big epic adventures require a party of six .

Also, it would look like an army, or a mercenary company , or you'd have to be quite the leader since your companions are there for different reasons, have diffenrent aligments and might even serve different gods.

Even in comics, hero groups are usually from five to eight , and in case there's more they split into two groups. Why take ten characters to investigate Ulcaster when you can split the party and have the second group check Firewine ruins instead?

billbisco

@CrevsDaak Then unharcode it like so many other things that EE editions have unhhardcoded I mean seriously Crevs. People have wanted this for years. It's a valid and desired feature that is worth implementing.

SionIV

billbisco said:

@CrevsDaak Then unharcode it like so many other things that EE editions have unhhardcoded I mean seriously Crevs. People have wanted this for years. It's a valid and desired feature that is worth implementing.

I don't think it's as easy as you make it sound. People also wanted to be able to dual class a fighter into a sorcerer, but that still haven't been done, even after so many years. This should more than anything show how hard some of that stuff is to make work.

billbisco

@SionIV If unpaid gemrb developers can unharcode classes and max party members in their spare time then a professional game company with more money, time, people, and full access to the game engine can certainty unhardcode this as well. ^_^

SionIV

billbisco said:

@SionIV If unpaid gemrb developers can unharcode classes and max party members in their spare time then a professional game company with more money, time, people, and full access to the game engine can certainty unhardcode this as well. ^_^

Which hardcoded classes have they uncoded?

billbisco

Gemrb has softcoded the classes.2da file and others. You can add whatever classes you want if you put in the work.
Here is the example: https://github.com/lynxlynxlynx/gemrb-mods/blob/master/sorcerer-monk-cleric/README.md

SionIV

billbisco said:

Gemrb has softcoded the classes.2da file and others. You can add whatever classes you want if you put in the work.
Here is the example: https://github.com/lynxlynxlynx/gemrb-mods/blob/master/sorcerer-monk-cleric/README.md

That is interesting, though seems rather fishy. I'm curious to give it a try just to see if it works, I have a feeling it is pretty far from perfect. I'll admit that is something new for me.

billbisco

@SionIV It's mainly coded for example purposes, but it does work. You could see screenahots of it if gibberlings3 weren't down.

Wowo

$10 for such a feature is silly. That's $30 for the 3 games.

CaloNord

Interesting. I've never had the desire to play with anymore then 6 but 7 might be fun. To me 10 sounds rather tricky to manage, especially since vanilla BG2/ToB has what, 17 NPCs? So you'd need a very odd party composition to make it work, not to go into the whole balance issues. Or the fact you could play it twice and have used pretty much all the NPCs.

Would it affect replayability? Part of the reason I keep playing is because I still haven't tried every party combination.

Moot point however since I don't think we'll ever see it in the EE games to be honest. For modders it's a labour of love to make things like this happen, for a professional company it's a matter of time, resources and money being worth the result and in this case I don't think they would be.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

@atcDave
Yup, one could do a playthrough with 7, which would still be pretty balanced. Then with 8 or 9 for some wacky adventuring. And then 10+ for the sake of novelty. Choice is a wonderful thing!

@CrevsDaak
I get what you're saying, but only the EEs have expanded content. While probably fun on its own, gemRB lacks the polish and new areas/NPCs/items that Beamdog has created.

@DJKajuru
BG2EE is a game, not a PnP campaign. And more party slots is one of the most basic and long-sought content updates from a huge part of the community. I admit playing with 10+ companions would be more on the side of novelty, but there's no reason one can't have fun running parties with 7 or 8 characters.

@billbisco
Beamdog doesn't lack the technical know-how, merely the inclination to pursue this kind of tweak. I'm sure the majority of the fanbase would shell out a couple of bucks for 10+ party slots. Personally, I'd be willing to pay up to $10, but that's just me.

@Wowo
It's not a mandatory feature, nor is it required to finish the game. People spend literally hundreds of dollars for vanity items in MMORPGs, and this isn't much different. I realize it's not everyone's cup of tea, but what I don't get is why some of you seem so militant about restraining others' spending habits. Not trying to flame you or anyone else, but why do you care how much money a person is spending if it's their own coin?

@CaloNord
They could put a single programmer on it, and he'd probably finish the work in a matter of weeks. Possibly much sooner if he dedicated all his time to it. I highly doubt Beamdog would go bankrupt with a single dude working on this instead of whatever other large project they're tackling at the time.

CaloNord

TvrtkoSvrdlar said:

They could put a single programmer on it, and he'd probably finish the work in a matter of weeks. Possibly much sooner if he dedicated all his time to it. I highly doubt Beamdog would go bankrupt with a single dude working on this instead of whatever other large project they're tackling at the time.

Interesting thought actually, I'm not sure how much profit they actually made from the EE's or how much was spent on SoD. Beamdog/Overhaul is not a large company it's possible with SoD under way as well as bug fixing for BG:EE and BG2:EE and IWD:EE they simply don't have the resources to spare right now.

TvrtkoSvrdlar

I remember seeing a quote saying they sold something like 1mil EEs.

Until we hear it from the horse's mouth, there's no way to verify such claims.

CaloNord

TvrtkoSvrdlar said:

I remember seeing a quote saying they sold something like 1mil EEs.

Until we hear it from the horse's mouth, there's no way to verify such claims.

Interesting! Still, I wonder how far that would actually go. When you consider the cost of equipment, the building, the power/rates, paying 30+ employees a decent wage, cost of webspace, advertising, rights and licensing . . . it probably evaporates pretty quickly actually. It's a shame pretty much all companies won't talk about profit and expense because I've always been fascinated by just how much it costs to do this type of work.

Yannir

@CaloNord Non-transparency is everything small companies have against the big sharks in the industry so I totally understand why they don't divulge that kind of information. It's a good thing the gaming industry is less centralized as Hollywood for example. Gives everyone the niche they need.

AstroBryGuy

TvrtkoSvrdlar said:

@CaloNord
They could put a single programmer on it, and he'd probably finish the work in a matter of weeks. Possibly much sooner if he dedicated all his time to it. I highly doubt Beamdog would go bankrupt with a single dude working on this instead of whatever other large project they're tackling at the time.

You're talking about a complete evaluation of the entire codebase to find every place where the game engine makes an explicit or implicit assumption that NumInParty <= 6. How complex the task is depends on how the code uses that party size assumption (and in how many different places in the code). Are there internal fixed-size data structures that cannot support more than X party members without redesigning the data structure? If so, then it may be a massive re-write of large parts of the Infinity Engine. Not to mention having to do QA on the entire game looking for places where the scripting now goes to lowest level of the 9 Hells with a dozen members in the party.

Can it be done? Sure. GemRB has done it, but they may have made more flexible design decisions in the early phases of development. Without an actual evaluation of the code, saying it could be done "in a matter of weeks" is pure speculation, and I would not be surprised if you have underestimated the work involved by at least an order of magnitude.

EDIT: And just wait for the "Petition to fix awful pathfinding in Firewine with 18 party members!" threads.

CaloNord

AstroBryGuy said:

EDIT: And just wait for the "Petition to fix awful pathfinding in Firewine with 18 party members!" threads.

Oh good god. That might match the number of Hexxat threads/debates/posts. . .

'My 22 party members can't fit through the door to beat the snot out of Mencar Pebblecrusher. Please widen the doors or move him to a more accessible area.'

CrevsDaak

billbisco said:

CrevsDaak Then unharcode it like so many other things that EE editions have unhhardcoded I mean seriously Crevs. People have wanted this for years. It's a valid and desired feature that is worth implementing.

billbisco said:

SionIV If unpaid gemrb developers can unharcode classes and max party members in their spare time then a professional game company with more money, time, people, and full access to the game engine can certainty unhardcode this as well. ^_^

They created the engine from scratch, they didn't unhardcode anything, they just didn't limit it in the engine but in external files.
(also they've been working on the engine for several years)

DJKajuru said:

[...] and in case there's more they split into two groups. Why take ten characters to investigate Ulcaster when you can split the party and have the second group check Firewine ruins instead?

I've tried to do that (without using C:MoveToArea() with single characters, which breaks when you travel normally and it's not very convenient) several times, but I never succeeded. I think it would require to change some code (no idea how much, but I guess it's much less based on how the .GAM structure keeps the reference of each NPC's current area and updates it in the saved game (to test this simply create a new BG:EE game, get out of Candlekeep, recruit Imoen, travel to another area, save, open you save with NearInfinity and compare your save's Imoen's current area with the default baldur.gam's).

Roller12

this sounds mighty intriguing, matching the army of Yaga Shura with an army of our own

This needs a Titan Quest mod though, which triples every boss.