Another question, mostly for @Grammarsalad: I've figured out that we do not need to have the class name and the first kit in the list be the same. So where the plan *has been* to list archetypes like so:
Once again it's a 'fill-in-the-blank' question. What to call the overall class category for our kits who find sources of magical power not granted by deities?
"Priest" is probably more generic than "cleric". But one thing. when I think " priest "I think " cloister", probably because my wife is Catholic. Well, not the ones locked away in the monistary, but the guys at the podium. Maybe that's just me.
As for the other, I kinda like adept, occultist, or even witch, though, think i still prefer mystic.
Carrion crawler is a cool idea. Carrion crawler + otyugh + arachnid, that's definitely more exotic than your wolf and bear and rabbit!
maybe a bit too exotic... carrion crawler is generally seen as freakish mutated worm and it's not an occupant of the jungle habitat - it usually lives underground.
in dragon #267 (3ed) it is said that: "The reason cc differes so much from terrestrial creatures is that it is not native to the planet. It is instead believed to be a native to the home world of illithids, or mindflayers, wherever that may be. Carrion crawlers do not only share the same habitat as the illithids but also bear a ring of tentacles around the mouth much like the mindflayers."
sooo...that would be prime alienist material i think.
otyugh is even less of an "animal", and it doesn't have any particular connection with the jungle.
"Priest" is probably more generic than "cleric". But one thing. when I think " priest "I think " cloister", probably because my wife is Catholic. Well, not the ones locked away in the monistary, but the guys at the podium. Maybe that's just me.
As for the other, I kinda like adept, occultist, or even witch, though, think i still prefer mystic.
Agreed. "Occultist" is pretty good, but not as good as Mystic. Actually Occultist would work for the 3rd archetype there, and maybe "Alienist" could simply be a particular subkit of Occultists.
I actually like "Acolyte" for specialty priests, it connotes unusual devotion to/within a sect. So how about:
Gha, time to finish up that deity selection code. The hope is to get it mostly completed this Saturday. I just have to re remember how I did it. Once I've done that, it shouldn't take too long to finish it (well, there is mental gymnastics involved, buy I've learned something about value changes that will not only improve this mod, but the item creation component in TnB. So, cool
So Mystics are defined most basically by their sphere of focus: they have the unique ability to cast certain spells as if they were 1 level lower than usual. They will derive power from particular substances or themes. This concept lends itself best to semi-druidic spheres: light, fire, air, etc. But, what to call the kits with each focus? My initial thoughts (tongue firmly in cheek):
- Fire => "Firewalker" - Light => "Solaster" (???) - Earth => "Stoneshaper" - Air => "Skywalker" - Water => "Aquadrist" - Animal => "Beastlord" or maybe "Lycan" (???) - Magic => ...??? (maybe "Metarcanist" but that sounds more scientific than mystical... actually that sounds like a cleric of Azuth. Maybe there should be no Magic Mystic, we can have an Incarnate of Mystra instead)
Any thoughts or suggestions? Also, any thoughts on which spheres should support Mystics?
I don't know... Firewalker is the title for specialty priests(/Acolytes) of Kossuth. Maybe we could try to give these "elementalists mystics" a more unified name theme (think of the orient, chinese Wu Xing, japanese Shintoism, ect)? This could at the very least make them different from the Alienist's(/Occultist's) elemental sub-kits. Just a thought.
Anyway, here are a couple of names I've thought of:
Abilities: - Focus access to the sphere of Fire. - May cast one extra spell per level. - 2% Fire Resistance per level, max 40% at 20th level. - 20% of all melee attacks cause 1d4 fire damage if the target fails a save vs. breath weapon. - May allocate 2 points (++) to Single-Weapon Style and 3 points (+++) to Two-Weapon Style.
Hindrances: - Reduced sphere access - major access to Vigor, Light, Air; minor access to Life, Protection, Knowledge, Magic. - Limited to light armor and weapons.
SUN MYSTIC
Abilities: - Focus access to the sphere of Light. - May cast one extra spell per level. - Immune to Blindness. - 20% of all melee attacks blind the target for 5 seconds on a failed save vs. breath weapon. - May allocate 2 points (++) to Single-Weapon Style and 3 points (+++) to Two-Weapon Style.
Hindrances: - Reduced sphere access - major access to Protection, Vigor, Fire, Air; minor access to Life, Knowledge, Plant, Deception, Magic. - Limited to light armor and weapons.
SKY MYSTIC
Abilities: - Focus access to the sphere of Air. - May cast one extra spell per level. - Immune to Cloud spells. - 20% of all melee attacks blow the target away on a failed save vs. breath weapon. - May allocate 2 points (++) to Single-Weapon Style and 3 points (+++) to Two-Weapon Style.
Hindrances: - Reduced sphere access - major access to Vigor, Light, Knowledge; minor access to Life, Protection, Thought, Magic. - Limited to light armor and weapons.
STONE MYSTIC
Abilities: - Focus access to the sphere of Earth. - May cast one extra spell per level. - 2% Crushing Resistance per level, max 40% at 20th level. Immune to Earthquakes and Imprisonment at 15th level. - 20% of all melee attacks stun the target for 1-2 seconds upon a failed save vs. death. - May allocate 2 points (++) to Single-Weapon Style and 3 points (+++) to Two-Weapon Style.
Hindrances: - Reduced sphere access - major access to Vigor, Plant, ???; minor access to Life, Knowledge, ???, Magic. - Limited to light armor and weapons.
WATER MYSTIC
Abilities: - Focus access to the sphere of Water. - May cast one extra spell per level. - 2% Acid Resistance per level, max 40% at 20th level. Immune to Smashing Wave. - 20% of all melee attacks cause 1d3 acid damage if the target fails a save vs. breath weapon. - May allocate 2 points (++) to Single-Weapon Style and 3 points (+++) to Two-Weapon Style.
Hindrances: - Reduced sphere access - major access to Life, Vigor, Affliction; minor access to Knowledge, Thought, Plant, Magic. - Limited to light armor and weapons.
BEAST MYSTIC
Abilities: - Focus access to the sphere of Animal. - May cast "Beast Claw" as an innate ability, at will. - May shapeshift into a hybrid werewolf form once per day. This form grows in power as the Beastlord reaches higher levels. - 20% of all claw and werewolf attacks become infected upon a failed save vs. death, weakening the target and causing a chance of spell failure for 1 turn. - May allocate 2 points (++) to Single-Weapon Style.
Hindrances: - Reduced sphere access - major access to Protection, Vigor, Fire, Air; minor access to Life, Knowledge, Plant, Deception, Magic. - Limited to light armor and weapons.
Thoughts?
As far as the "Magic Mystic" goes... well, I believe the Oracle kit might do this role better. Perhaps other spheres could make for more interesting Mystic sub-kits? (I'm looking at you, Death)
The "Sun Mystic" doesn't have to be limited towards the sun here. After all the Light sphere also includes the moon, stars and other celestial bodies. Perhaps replacing immunity to blindness with a more powerful version of infravision?
I'm skeptical about the "Beast Mystic". It would be one thing if he/she was an "animal summoner" of sorts. Perhaps even a blood mage-ish caster who harms the enemies from within. But a bloodthirsty, lycanthropic melee machine? This honestly doesn't add up in my mind. At least not when looking at the other sub-kits.
Maybe a slower movement rate for the "Stone Mystic" could emulate their earthly body weight? At the same time the "Sky Mystic" might move quicker but can carry less than others. Just a thought.
just wanna say i'm super excited to see this done, i usually play as a cleric, druid or mage, and some of these classes will really go a long way to making my games more enjoyable
just wanna say i'm super excited to see this done, i usually play as a cleric, druid or mage, and some of these classes will really go a long way to making my games more enjoyable
I don't know... Firewalker is the title for specialty priests(/Acolytes) of Kossuth. Maybe we could try to give these "elementalists mystics" a more unified name theme (think of the orient, chinese Wu Xing, japanese Shintoism, ect)? This could at the very least make them different from the Alienist's(/Occultist's) elemental sub-kits.
Well, we're adding some non-canon stuff (Mystics, Occultists) and generally departing from strictly following canon rules (sphere definitions) so personally I don't mind shifting some canon content over to fill our new kits. I never understood the (3E+!) addition of Kossuth and the other faceless, uncaring Elemental Lords as things that a human would worship in the same way you would worship a "god" who has a personality and a philosophy that you might share and support. Even in the Faiths of Faerun thread, the kit descriptions always said "these guys don't give a crap about their worshippers." Um, excuse me? Then who cares enough to organize a worshipping clergy in the first place?
Whereas, being obsessed with the *idea* of the purifying flame that Kosduth represents, I can see. So I sort of figured that we would move Firewalkers to the Mystic class. They would not worship Kossuth in an organized way, but would venerate him in the same way a Sun Mystic might venerate Lathander - while remaining independent of an organized clergy.
Ha ha! I take it you have never played the palladium fantasy rpg. One of my favorite classes was the warlock. They were essentially elemental caster/priests in tune with the elemental planes, and saw elements--who were just as alien and otherworldly as in D&D--as 'brethren'. Elementals generally did not relate to moral races--anymore than we can relate to insects, anyway--but Warlocks found a way to do so, and they might stop in the middle of a rampage to talk to a Warlock. It was always fun playing one of those.
Anyway, I think it is perfectly appropriate to move them to the Mystic class. This is where they really do seem to fit.
But I welcome other opinions, I don't feel very strong about it. If @Grammarsalad wants to include Acolytes of Kossuth that's fine. Ultimately it's just a naming issue. (And btw I love "Flamespeaker.")
As for the elements generally: roughly, I'm considering the Elementalist in the Occultist class to be someone who studies the energy and matter swirling around the inner planes and learns to manipulate it - similar to how a wizard manipulates the energy of the Weave, though of course with different methods and results.
Functionally, I'm planning an "Elementalist" kit within the "Occultist" class; Elementalists will have major access to all four elemental spheres. This would be the *only* kit in the whole game with major access to all of the elements; Druids get minor access to them, and elemental Mystics focus on just one. Elemental spells are mostly offensive, so the Elementalist is going to be the divine-class answer to the Invoker.
Again, if @Grammarsalad or someone else has different/better ideas, I haven't coded anything yet so I'm open to changes.
...that is an excellent idea, and elementalists can be separate from firewalkers/etc. in this way.
As far as the "Magic Mystic" goes... well, I believe the Oracle kit might do this role better. Perhaps other spheres could make for more interesting Mystic sub-kits? (I'm looking at you, Death)
I agree. I think you and I have together talked me out of doing a Magic Mystic kit. That can be left for acolytes/incarnates blessed by Mystra, or to the at an classes/kits.
A Death Mystic could be interesting. We'd have to be very careful though, I generally see Death as a sphere on the clerical side of things, rather than on the mystic/druidic side. Why would Kelemvor tolerate such a thing? On the other hand if we could justify it and balance it, it would be very cool. Lots of necromantic magic, % chance for cold damage on hit, maybe innate Chill Touch... could be fun!
The "Sun Mystic" doesn't have to be limited towards the sun here. After all the Light sphere also includes the moon, stars and other celestial bodies. Perhaps replacing immunity to blindness with a more powerful version of infravision?
Maybe... we could possibly implement permanent invisibility detection, if I can make it work the same way SRv4 does - invisible enemies aren't revealed to everyone, but the Sun/Light Mystic can personally see and target them. Just need to make sure that wouldn't be game-breaking.
I'm skeptical about the "Beast Mystic". It would be one thing if he/she was an "animal summoner" of sorts. Perhaps even a blood mage-ish caster who harms the enemies from within. But a bloodthirsty, lycanthropic melee machine? This honestly doesn't add up in my mind.
I hear that. But I haven't written up any fluff yet. Mystics need not all be calm navel-gazing philosophers. They're meant to be athletic, outdoorsy types, that's why they all have major access to Vigor. They are people intent on connecting with a fundamental, primal aspect of the universe. So the elements fit perfectly, and Death might fit well... plants/life fit but that group has become formalized as the Druid class (though, Mystics with focus access to the Plant sphere, running around as outlaw proto-druids would be pretty great!).
Focusing on man's inherent bestial nature seems to me like it could fit there. Summon a bunch of wolves and bears, transform into a beast, and then all fall into your prey as a pack... you'd have a vicious philosophy of survival of the fittest, and you *live* that philosophy!
Have you guys considered including chaos magic as part of the Occultist? I imagine these "Chaotes" could blend in quite well within the game by making them the divine equivalents of Wild Mages. Tying them to the plane of Limbo instead of wild magic zones might be interesting as well for a theme. There's of course also the Xaositects ("Chaosmen") faction from Planescape which could be used for blending them into the game world as well. Just a thought.
Alternatively: Since Chaotes view "believe" as a tool rather than a path of enlightenment, this could perhaps also make for an interesting Ur-Priest sub-kit.
Also, this may be better suited for Tome and Blood but did you think about incorporating Shadow Weave magic somehow? IIRC Lava did create some spells for his Foundling NPC that somehow simulate these kind of spells but I'd love to see some sophisticated system.
Also, this may be better suited for Tome and Blood but did you think about incorporating Shadow Weave magic somehow? IIRC Lava did create some spells for his Foundling NPC that somehow simulate these kind of spells but I'd love to see some sophisticated system.
I think sommering like a shadow mage will be in TnB, but I'm not sure of the specifics. In any case, Shar is likely to have shadow adepts... This might wait until the next release of TnB, so they are compatible.
An update: I've worked a bit on the deity selection dialog and script. It's pretty straightforward, but it's a bit time consuming (time is short these days).
Also, when I get a chance, I want to put a few more deity kits up here for review when I get a chance. I'm thinking Tempus, Ilmater and Loviatar....ahhh, I need to put Talos up here too. I've done some work on all of these, but I want you guys to look at them before finalizing anything. Oh, I believe that Shar is in the mix as well
Also, any requests for specific gods for the cleric and their kits in the first release? Right now the list is:
Talos, Helm, Lathander, Tempus, Loviatar, Illmater, and perhaps Shar.
I have all of the 2e forgotten realms deity books now, so everybody is on the table
I also love the idea of a Chaos Priest, and it would fit great under the Occultist class. Could we give it the Wild Mage usability flag and cause wild surges when casting spells? That would be great. In exchange we could give it some spontaneous/improvisational casting, or something like that...
Also, any requests for specific gods for the cleric and their kits in the first release? Right now the list is:
Talos, Helm, Lathander, Tempus, Loviatar, Illmater, and perhaps Shar.
I have all of the 2e forgotten realms deity books now, so everybody is on the table
Personally, I would start with deities which possess temples in the BG saga: Oghma, Waukeen, Tymora, Garl Glittergold, Yondalla and Umberlee come to mind. Then there are Lolth's, Ghaunadaur's and proberly also Eilistraee's places of worship within Ust Nasha as well. On the other hand: expect Ghaunadaur, none of the other Drow pantheon deities accept non-Drow worshipers. Hm...
Also, any requests for specific gods for the cleric and their kits in the first release? Right now the list is:
Talos, Helm, Lathander, Tempus, Loviatar, Illmater, and perhaps Shar.
I have all of the 2e forgotten realms deity books now, so everybody is on the table
Personally, I would start with deities which possess temples in the BG saga: Oghma, Waukeen, Tymora, Garl Glittergold, Yondalla and Umberlee come to mind. Then there are Lolth's, Ghaunadaur's and proberly also Eilistraee's places of worship within Ust Nasha as well. On the other hand: expect Ghaunadaur, none of the other Drow pantheon deities accept non-Drow worshipers. Hm...
I'm fine adding these if it's fine that, in the first release, they do not have extra dialog (which is certainly the plan, but one that will be implemented in the far(ish) future).
I don't think it can work exactly like NRD, due to technical limitations. But, maybe innate abilities like those in my Spellbender kit, to supplement normal spellcasting. So, e.g. at 1st level you get one memorized spell plus one improvisational cast. At any given time, at each spell level, you could have your normal magic plus one extra casting of any spell of that level.
Thinking about deities:
Some deities should have only Acolytes, not Clerics - they just don't lend themselves to adventuring and mace-bashing. (Of course, sometimes a temple priest gets thrust into a big adventure whether they planned to or not... that's why we make these Acolyte kits available to players.) Oghma, Waukeen, Sune, Umbrelee (though, the latter would present RP problems unless we're willing to change/add some dialogues - and I unfortunately cannot get into that)...
Others might definitely have adventuring clerics: Tempus, Tymora, and Leira for sure.
The bigger deities should definitely have both clerics and Acolytes: Lathander, Selune, Helm, Talos, Shar...
I think some deities should only be available for multiclass clerics: e.g. Mask for cleric/thieves. Ranger/clerics could choose to follow Mielikki, for the traditional class, and maybe Chauntea to simulate a ranger/druid (yeah!). Cleric/mages and cleric/thieves should have the choice to worship a nature deity, to simulate druid/mages and druid/thieves. (We should look into finding a way to restrict druid/mages from casting certain wizard spells that are contrary to the druidic ethos...)
Mystra is a bit exceptional, I think. It would be reasonable (IMHO) to only have Incarnates (with improvisational wizard spellcasting) or cleric/mages (formally trained in both professions) for her.
As for Incarnates: some deities are more organized and would presumably prefer to interact with the world through their organized religions - Lathander, Helm, etc. Other deities might be more willing to tap a mortal for direct intervention. Mystra for sure, maybe also Sune, maybe Tymora, maybe Talos... maybe even Bhaal!
Maybe it would help to list out each kit visually. Then we can just update the list as we decide to change things, or as we finish kits. I put an asterisk * after the ones that are coded up and ready to play. Grammarsalad can add * to whichever he's got done.)
Looks like a great list. I'll want to add Loviatar and Illmater to this list is only because I've already started on them (heh, I now have that song that goes, "pain, without love. Pain, I can't get enough. Pain, 'cause I like it rough, I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all.." Stuck in my head.)
I might want to add Bane, if only because he's one of my favorites.. For him I could see clerics, Acolytes, and champions edit: and inquisitors(obviously, probably, IWD only).
Also, both Shar and Talos want a piece of Mystra's portfolio, so I could see them supporting cleric/mages.
Oh yeah, forgot about them. I assume Ilmater would have Acolytes, not Clerics. Loviatar could go either way.
I'm going to try to get the Druids and Mystics done, and maybe some others that can be easily translated from Scales of Balance kits: Acolyte of Shar, Acolyte of Sune, Cleric of Arvoreen, Cleric of Brandobaris, Cleric of Tymora, Cleric of Leira, Cleric of Baravar Cloakshadow, Cleric of Erevan Ilesere, Incarnate of Mystra, Cleric/mage of Mystra, Cleric/thief of Mask, Cleric/Ranger, Druid/Ranger, Druid/thief, Elementalist, and Chaos Priest. Beyond that my ability to add stuff will be extremely limited, RL has caught up to me and is leaving me with very little time atm.
Wow, that is more than I expected, but great. I've got the others. Life has caught up with me as well, but the delay is temporary
Ha ha, well, those are the kits that I can transfer more or less directly from SoB, with abilities etc. that are already sitting on my hard drive, so they should be easy. This way we'll have some stuff ready to go for a working v1.0 release, with a minimum of effort. Once I have them in the mod you can feel free to tinker with them tailor them to balance with the rest of the kits, etc.
I have two three! Mystic kits working so far, I should be able to get the other five done by next week. Then I'll work on the Cleric/Acolyte/Multiclass kits from SoB. If you can focus on clerics and acolytes of the "big" deities (Lathander, Selune, Helm, Tempus, Talos) and some of the smaller ones (Oghma, Ilmater, Loviatar, Waukeen), and the Occultists and Champions, then I think we will be in great shape to ship, soon!
Before I forget: check the share drive and let me know what you think of my proposed spell table for Paladins/Champions. I think that's all we'll need to include BG/BG2 compatibility. (It will require IWDification, but that's fine.)
Finally, we haven't really talked about rangers. Personally I'm okay with just omitting rangers from the mod, at least for v1. They don't really need to commit to a deity the way other kits do, so they don't really need to be here, and I've been working on rangers in Might & Guile. (I can easily add checks in M&G to give select sphere access to the various ranger kits.) But if you have ideas and think rangers should be handled by this mod, let me know.
Okay, sounds good. I think we can leave rangers alone for now. I'll check the drive, hopefully this Saturday (the day I'm usually free has been anything but these days)
Comments
As for the other, I kinda like adept, occultist, or even witch, though, think i still prefer mystic.
carrion crawler is generally seen as freakish mutated worm and it's not an occupant of the jungle habitat - it usually lives underground.
in dragon #267 (3ed) it is said that: "The reason cc differes so much from terrestrial creatures is that it is not native to the planet. It is instead believed to be a native to the home world of illithids, or mindflayers, wherever that may be. Carrion crawlers do not only share the same habitat as the illithids but also bear a ring of tentacles around the mouth much like the mindflayers."
sooo...that would be prime alienist material i think.
otyugh is even less of an "animal", and it doesn't have any particular connection with the jungle. i think this is great
Anyway, here are a couple of names I've thought of:
- Fire => M' wanga, Heddy-legba, Flamespeaker, Hitsukai
- Light => Sungazer, Astrologer, Starwatcher, Firmamentalist, Tenkutsukai
- Earth => Keyan-legba, Geode/Geodist, Tsuchitsukai
- Air => Abu-legba, Cloudreader, Fuseitsukai
- Water => Damon-legba, Wavebreaker, Suiikitsukai
- Animal => Kahin, Primeval, Kemonotsukai
- Magic => Hakima, Eldritchos, Mahoutsukai As far as the "Magic Mystic" goes... well, I believe the Oracle kit might do this role better. Perhaps other spheres could make for more interesting Mystic sub-kits? (I'm looking at you, Death)
The "Sun Mystic" doesn't have to be limited towards the sun here. After all the Light sphere also includes the moon, stars and other celestial bodies. Perhaps replacing immunity to blindness with a more powerful version of infravision?
I'm skeptical about the "Beast Mystic". It would be one thing if he/she was an "animal summoner" of sorts. Perhaps even a blood mage-ish caster who harms the enemies from within. But a bloodthirsty, lycanthropic melee machine? This honestly doesn't add up in my mind. At least not when looking at the other sub-kits.
Maybe a slower movement rate for the "Stone Mystic" could emulate their earthly body weight? At the same time the "Sky Mystic" might move quicker but can carry less than others. Just a thought.
Otherwise they look great.
Anyway, I think it is perfectly appropriate to move them to the Mystic class. This is where they really do seem to fit. ...that is an excellent idea, and elementalists can be separate from firewalkers/etc. in this way. Hey! I'm a calm navel-gazing philosopher!
All of this looks great to me
Alternatively:
Since Chaotes view "believe" as a tool rather than a path of enlightenment, this could perhaps also make for an interesting Ur-Priest sub-kit.
I like the idea of a 'chaos priest' type...
Also, when I get a chance, I want to put a few more deity kits up here for review when I get a chance. I'm thinking Tempus, Ilmater and Loviatar....ahhh, I need to put Talos up here too. I've done some work on all of these, but I want you guys to look at them before finalizing anything. Oh, I believe that Shar is in the mix as well
Also, any requests for specific gods for the cleric and their kits in the first release? Right now the list is:
Talos, Helm, Lathander, Tempus, Loviatar, Illmater, and perhaps Shar.
I have all of the 2e forgotten realms deity books now, so everybody is on the table
Oghma especially makes sense. Looks like a great list. I'll want to add Loviatar and Illmater to this list is only because I've already started on them (heh, I now have that song that goes, "pain, without love. Pain, I can't get enough. Pain, 'cause I like it rough, I'd rather feel pain than nothing at all.." Stuck in my head.)
I might want to add Bane, if only because he's one of my favorites.. For him I could see clerics, Acolytes, and champions edit: and inquisitors(obviously, probably, IWD only).
Also, both Shar and Talos want a piece of Mystra's portfolio, so I could see them supporting cleric/mages.