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Faiths and Powers: Gods of the Realms (Kitpack and divine caster/spell tweaks)

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Comments

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    edited September 2015
    I've converted Vigor to be the universal sphere for druids/mystics... I realized that it lacked a 7th-level spell, that's why I didn't choose it to begin with. I cast around for a 'vigorous' spell... Iron Body? Simulacrum? But then I realized the most vigorous spell of all: Tenser's Transformation. I made it 7th level. It might be crazy but it might be perfect too.

    So, 20 spheres, just about ready to go. We need a priest version of Conjure Water Elemental (no fight for control, and a chance for higher-HD elementals like the fire and earth elemental spells). While you're at it, might as well make one for air elementals too (although the air sphere is already super-strong).

    Next up: description patching.

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,241

    Tenser's Transformation.

    these spells weren't crafted by a student of magic, but instead are a boon from the heavens so a divine spell can't be called after a mage :)
    you should rename it and modify it a bit - mostly for cosmetic reasons...it's fairly superfluous to those clercis who will be able to cast holy power and righteous magic, but i don't think that it's a problem.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    edited September 2015
    I don't know if it needs modifying - it's definitely a step above any other divine combat buff spell... for a cleric who's already halfway decent in melee, Tenser's will make them a total monster. And it fits the Vigor sphere well enough, being a "transformation" rather than a magical holy mantle of power or something. The only question is, is there a spell that would work better.

    Like, we could do Regeneration at 6th level and Trollish Fortitude at 7th level... but "regeneration and better regeneration" is boring. Like I say, we could adapt Iron Body, but I think that spell has more wizard-y visual effects (like actually turning your body to iron, instead of it just being metaphor). If you think of something to put there instead (or to put at 6th level, and we can move Regeneration back to 7th), then by all means let us know. It's super easy to change.

    And yeah, we'll patch spell names and descriptions to remove the "Tenser's" and the "Snilloc's" etc. There are a fair amount of wizard spells available to clerics now... but I think that's okay. I figure, deities can easily grant a mortal a magical boost of double hit points and extra attacks and thac0/damage bonuses, right? But wizards have had to figure out magic for themselves. So Tenser is this guy who managed to replicate this incredibly powerful divine magic, without any divine help. So he puts his name on the wizard version of the spell.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689

    For the elementalist, I was thinking of four basic subkits, each of which gets major access to a single elemental sphere, and minor access to two others (ie the ones not in opposition to the chosen element). So, eg, earth elementalists have no access to air/storm

    Edit: though, if they get improved access to their chosen sphere, that might merit major access to the other two--they will be superior in their chosen element, and its in theme. Maybe full access to all elemental spells would be okay, really. I think they would function more like a sorcerer than a priest with the limited healing...

    I like that - focused access to their favored element, some access to other spheres, and no access to the opposing element.

    I think someone with major access to all four elements could be a subkit of an Ur-Priest. Or maybe all Ur-Priests have the elemental spheres among their many many major-access spheres.

    Incidentally, I kind of think Ur-Priest might fit better as a Cleric kit than a Mystic kit... I guess it could fit in either place, but we have like 7 kits for Mystics and only 3 for Clerics.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433

    For the elementalist, I was thinking of four basic subkits, each of which gets major access to a single elemental sphere, and minor access to two others (ie the ones not in opposition to the chosen element). So, eg, earth elementalists have no access to air/storm

    Edit: though, if they get improved access to their chosen sphere, that might merit major access to the other two--they will be superior in their chosen element, and its in theme. Maybe full access to all elemental spells would be okay, really. I think they would function more like a sorcerer than a priest with the limited healing...

    I like that - focused access to their favored element, some access to other spheres, and no access to the opposing element.

    I think someone with major access to all four elements could be a subkit of an Ur-Priest. Or maybe all Ur-Priests have the elemental spheres among their many many major-access spheres.

    Incidentally, I kind of think Ur-Priest might fit better as a Cleric kit than a Mystic kit... I guess it could fit in either place, but we have like 7 kits for Mystics and only 3 for Clerics.
    Done, and done... More soon.

  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    I have an idea for a sixth level plant sphere spell: bramble armor.

    Inspired by this:

    http://www.d20pfsrd.com/classes/core-classes/cleric/domains/paizo---domains/plant-domain

    Skin turns to hard wood covered with nasty thorns.

    Gives a high natural ac, damages opponents that hit the caster in melee with piercing damage, gives a bonus to hit points and strength, wooden fists that do blunt, and piercing damage, and allows casting(?)

    This way, we can use the shambling mound as the 7th level spell

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    That sounds awesome. Kind of like wizards' Iron Body but themed for druids. I love it!

    We might want to beef up the Earth sphere as well. It's high-level spells are great, but it needs help in levels 2-3. Maybe just 1-2 more spells.

    I've got all 20 spheres codes up, except for new custom spells. Now I just need to add description-patching code for wizard spell conversions and spell name changes, and some automatic code for patching the sphere into every spell's description. Should be easy, I can adapt the method I used to change the schools of wizard spells in SoB. Then, basically, it'll be ready to go.

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015

    That sounds awesome. Kind of like wizards' Iron Body but themed for druids. I love it!

    We might want to beef up the Earth sphere as well. It's high-level spells are great, but it needs help in levels 2-3. Maybe just 1-2 more spells.

    I've got all 20 spheres codes up, except for new custom spells. Now I just need to add description-patching code for wizard spell conversions and spell name changes, and some automatic code for patching the sphere into every spell's description. Should be easy, I can adapt the method I used to change the schools of wizard spells in SoB. Then, basically, it'll be ready to go.

    Oh yeah, I have at least one idea for an earth spell:

    Stone Fist. 3d6 Blunt damage melee attack. 2nd level.

    Edit: I'll think of more. Any other spheres that seem light? I can certainly look myself, but you know them better at this point

  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,981
    Some random spell idea for Death domain:

    Ashes to ashes: cloud of dust (like a Stinking Cloud) which affects only undead. All undead with KW 8 or less will be automatically destroyed if they fail a save vs spell. Even if a save is successful they will receive 3k6 magic damage and will act as blinded until they leave the cloud.

    Can't figure which level it could be (probably rather high), but don't hesitate to tailor it to your needs if you like the idea :smile:

    GrammarsaladJuliusBorisov
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    edited September 2015
    Re: Stone Fist - I like it.

    Most of the spheres are in good shape. You're already filling out the Destruction sphere with new spells. Earth and Plant are light but only need ~1-3 spells each. Light is on the thin side - especially in the absence of IWDEE, because IWDification does not include the excellent 'Wall of Moonlight' spell. Some Light spells could really stand to be improved. (I think stuff like Sunscorch, False Dawn, and Sunray should have special effects against drow and other dark-dwelling creatures? Like save vs. Blindness, and/or Lower Resistance. Shining a big ray of sunlight at a drow should have adverse effects that aren't blocked by MR, because it's just the light, not the magic.)

    If you spot any wizard spells where you think a custom spell would work better (like with Tenser's above) then feel free to switch it out. But generally we're in good shape.

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    Cahir said:

    Some random spell idea for Death domain:

    Ashes to ashes: cloud of dust (like a Stinking Cloud) which affects only undead. All undead with KW 8 or less will be automatically destroyed if they fail a save vs spell. Even if a save is successful they will receive 3k6 magic damage and will act as blinded until they leave the cloud.

    Can't figure which level it could be (probably rather high), but don't hesitate to tailor it to your needs if you like the idea :smile:

    Maybe this can instead to the light domain, with a little refluffing!

    Re: Stone Fist - I like it.

    Most of the spheres are in good shape. You're already filling out the Destruction sphere with new spells. Earth and Plant are light but only need ~1-3 spells each. Light is on the thin side - especially in the absence of IWDEE, because IWDification does not include the excellent 'Wall of Moonlight' spell. Some Light spells could really stand to be improved. (I think stuff like Sunscorch, False Dawn, and Sunray should have special effects against drow and other dark-dwelling creatures? Like save vs. Blindness, and/or Lower Resistance. Shining a big ray of sunlight at a drow should have adverse effects that aren't blocked by MR, because it's just the light, not the magic.)

    If you spot any wizard spells where you think a custom spell would work better (like with Tenser's above) then feel free to switch it out. But generally we're in good shape.

    Great ideas about some extra effects vs. drow. Also, some of the new opcodes make this sort of thing a snap!

    I'll definitely think about more spells to fill those gaps, but I'm primarily focusing on the class structure atm. My hope is to have something of a concrete plan by Saturday, which is when I have the most time to mod.

    Cahir
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 1,981
    edited September 2015
    Another random thought. Something wicked this time, but dunno if it's even doable. This will probably be perfect for a Water domain.

    Ice statue: The caster selects a target who will turn into a statue of ice if he fails a save vs death. He's literally covered with a thick crust of ice and cannot perform any actions (move, fight or cast a spell). In addition he becomes immune to a weapons up to +2 as well as to cold and magical cold damage (but receives double damage from fire or magic fire). He also emanates an aura of frost (3-feet radius) that inflicts 1k6/level of the caster (up to 5k6) of cold damage to all creatures in the area. If the victim succeed his save he receives 5k4 cold damage and is slowed for 2 rounds.

    As usual feel free to change/trash/discard the idea :smile:

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015
    Please note: this is the most updated information as of 9/2/2015. Some of the details are in flux, and I want to iron them out before updating the first few posts (though that should happen by this Saturday, 9/5/2015)

    This began as some thoughts for the Ur-priest, but it is about overall kit organization, so I'll put it here:

    2015/09/02:
    Ur-Priests may not have access to healing, ie quintessential priest spells, but have a limited ability to drain hp from enemies to compensate. I could certainly see them being barred divine aid, though this would mess up the current plan of making divine aid universal for clerics. Well, there is always the option of moving them back to Mystic...I could see the elementalist becoming a cleric kit instead if it's too lopsided. Actually, the incarnate might work as a mystic kit as well.

    Hmmm...I see mystics as more 'raw', more detached from any official church hierarchy, and lacking 'formal' education/indoctrination...Maybe the Cleric can have the Elementalist, Priest/archivist, and demonologist/diabolist kits, while the Mystic can have the Ur-Priest, Incarnate, Druid and Alienist. The Champion would have any holy warrior type, officially associated with institutionalized religion or not. Of course, the Ur-Priest could be a former priest who decided they didn't want to be anybody's servant. Okay, so I am thinking of three different ways to organize this. One option is as is below. The other two:

    2)
    Cleric Class
    - Priest
    - Elementalist
    - Demonologist
    Mystic Class
    - Ur-Priest
    - Incarnate
    - Druid
    - Alienist

    3)
    Cleric Class
    - Priest
    - Elementalist
    - Ur-Priest
    Mystic Class
    - Incarnate
    - Druid
    - Alienist
    - Demonologist

    I kinda favor 3, though I'm interested in any thoughts on the matter.

    Base Class: Cleric
    Abilities: 
    - Full armor (I'm thinking of downgrading this to chain armor?)
    - Full casting
    - Turn/rebuke undead
    - Medium/High THAC0 (i.e. better than cleric, but not fighter level)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put a point into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can specialize in deities' favored weapon.
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    Deity access: Helm, Talos, Lathander, Tempus, Bane, Azuth, Deneir, Oghma, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Tyr, Torm
    Cleric kit: Priest/Archivist
    Abilities: 
    - Light armor (studded leather max)
    - Devoted Servant: +1 spell/Lev
    - Lore: 8/lev
    - Magic Item Use
    - Turn/rebuke undead
    - Wizard THAC0
    - D6 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Does not gain specialization/mastery, but some can become proficient in otherwise prohibited weapons.
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6 (as Cleric)
    *Various granted powers as they level up (as Cleric)
    Deity access: Loviatar, Sune, Ilmater, Talona, Talos, Lathander, Mykrul, Azuth, Deneir, Oghma, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Leira, Beshaba, Talona
    Cleric kit: Incarnate/Chosen
    Abilities: 
    - No Armor
    - Divine Savant: +2 spells/level, Casting level +2
    - Unpracticed Caster: - 3 casting speed
    - Turn/rebuke undead
    - Wizard THAC0
    - D6 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Does not gain specialization/mastery, nor access to any additional weapon training.
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6 (as Cleric)
    *Various granted powers as they level up (as Cleric)
    Deity access: Bane, Loviatar, Sune, Ilmater, Talona, Talos, Lathander, Mykrul, Deneir, Oghma, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Leira, Beshaba, Talona
    2015/09/02: Moved to Cleric Kit
    Cleric Kit: Ur-Priest
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to Mystic
    - No Turn Undead
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Sphere Access: High Access: Maximum access possible within the constraints of the engine. SPECIFICS TO BE DETERMINED.
    - Steal Spells: Drain spells from other casters to replenish their own slots. Ability improves with level (and will hopefully be useful enough to compensate, with expanded spell access, for missing granted abilities).

    2015/09/02:
    May not have access to healing, ie quintessential priest spells, but have a limited ability to drain hp from enemies to compensate.

    Deity access: None, despises the gods.
    RESTRICTIONS: Non-good only
    Base Class: Mystic (was druid)
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - +1 spells/level (Compared to Cleric)
    - Does not Turn/rebuke undead
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain Mastery in deities' favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Low access: 10 spheres, major access to ~5
    *Sphere Focus: Gains early access to one of their available (Major access) spheres
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    Deity access: Akadi, Malar, Eldath, Chauntea, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Mielikki, Moander, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Talos, Selune, Mystra, Shar, Beshaba, Talona

    (If the elementalist materializes as a separate kit, the various elemental lords may be removed from this and the druid kit to be exclusive to that kit.)
    Mystic Kit: Druid
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to Mystic
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain Mastery in deities' favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6 (as Cleric)
    *Sphere Focus: Gains early access to one of their available (Major access) spheres
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    *Shape Shift. Specifics vary by Deity
    Deity access: Auril, Akadi, Malar, Eldath, Chauntea, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Mielikki, Moander, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Talona.

    Restrictions: Must have a neutral component to alignment

    (SoB has done a lot of great work on druids, and the plan is to incorporate that work into this one. For example, standard Forest Druids of Silvanus will shape shift into wolf, rat etc as in that mod. Druids of Malar--at least one sect--will be SoB's lycanthropic druids, and so on.)

    2015/09/02
    As for the Totemic druid, I think that the shaman is the best home for that one.

    Mystic Kit: Elementalist
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - (as Mystic), so +1 spells/level compared to Cleric
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Gains Mastery with deity's favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Very Low Access: 8 spheres, major access to ~4.
    *Sphere Focus: Gains early access to one of their available (Major access) spheres
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    *Shape Shift: Elemental Forms (water forms will require Extended Animations mod)
    Deity access: Akadi, Eldath, Chauntea, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Shaundakul

    Mystic Kit: Alienist
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to Mystic
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Focus:
    *Sphere access: Low access: 10 spheres, major access to ~5 (As Mystic)
    *Unique Sphere(?): Gains spells related to their obsession that are not generally available to other practitioners.
    *Gains various powers related to their focus as they level up
    Deity access: Does not select a deity per se, but selects from a number of 'interests' that control sphere access and special abilities. Two examples: Oozemaster (abilities/spheres having to do with puddings and oozes) and Hivemaster (insects).

    (Pehaps this can be folded into another kit, like the druid, mystic or diabolist. (maybe some obsess over oozes, and others with demons? Both are utterly alien, right?) Another crazy idea: A pudding familiar would be fun, no?

    Also, some of these might make better Shaman kits. We'll see
    Everything below updated as of 2015/09/02

    Mystic Kit: Demonologist/Diabolist
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to Mystic
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - Demonic Familliar
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Makes a pact with an otheworldly outsider; powers and sphere access are based on who is selected:
    *Sphere access: Low access: 10 spheres, major access to ~5 (As Mystic)
    *Unique Sphere(?): Gains spells related to their obsession that are not generally available to other practitioners.
    *Gains various powers related to their pact as they level up
    Deity access: Does not select a deity per se, but rather a demon like Graz'zt, Orcus, Juiblex, Demogorgon, or a devil like Asmodeus. Just going by the list that Kamigoroshi gave me, but I have the book of vile darkness around here somewhere.


    (This does look pretty similar to the Alienist. I am still tempted to fold them together. The subclasses would look something like this:

    Hivemaster: spider familiar; shapeshift into different bugs; immunity to poison, web, entangle, and the insect spells (requires a non-lawful alignment)
    Oozemaster: pudding familiar (oohh, isn't it cute!); shape-shift into various oozes, resistance and/or immunity to poisons and acids; some 'ozze-y' spells. (requires a non-lawful alignment)
    Diabolist: Obsessed with becoming a devil. Imp (that's the devil, right?) familiar, 'devil-y' abilities and spells. (Lawful Evil alignment).
    Demonologist: Makes a pact with a demon to gain power. Quasit(sp?) familiar, 'demon-y' abilities and spells. (Chaotic Evil)
    (I'm obviously going to need to do more research! Especially for this, 'Nar Demonbinder'.)

    I see both the alienist and the demolologist types as something straight out of Cthulu: they become obsessed with something totally alien and monstrous, are more than a little unhinged, but can gain great power, even if ultimately they are consumed by it.

    Restriction: Non-good alignment
    Base Class: Champion (was paladin)
    Abilities: 
    - Heavy Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - Weakened Turn/rebuke undead (as is)
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Lay on Hands...I suppose
    - Smite Infidel (as is, but not limited to evil)
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain High Mastery in god's favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by deity (minor access as major access for cleric versions? These guys will still need universal access to something. Actually, I have a feeling that it will have to be the exact same as the cleric, so divine aid--which is fine)
    Deity access: Helm, Bane, Torm, Tyr, Tempus, Kelemvor (will be undead slayers; will make them have full turn undead), Lathander (ditto on the undead turning).
    Champion Kit: Inquisitor
    Abilities: 
    - Heavy Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - No Turn/rebuke undead (as is)
    - No Smite
    - No Lay on hands
    - Special abilities as describe in SoB
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain High Mastery in god's favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by deity (will gain minor access to the magic and knowledge spheres, even if their patron only generally gives minor access to it. Should have access to fewer spheres than the standard Champion)
    Deity access: Bane, Mystra, Azuth, Kelemvor...depends on sphere access. TO BE UPDATED
    Champion Kit: Zealot
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - No Turn/rebuke undead (as is)
    - Smite
    - No Lay on hands
    - Frenzy (a rage-like ability that will hopefully compensate for their lack of armor and weapon training)
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by deity.
    Deity access: I want to include just about every deity here. Zealots aren't part of any church hierarchy, or order; they just 'zealously' follow some god of their own accord out of pure faith, and are rewarded for it.
    Okay, again, I'm out of time. I have left out the black guard right now, if only because I need to look more closely at the kit itself. I believe that Dorn at least is a demon worshiper, so that is why i was thinking that a black guard should be basically the warrior equivalent of the demonologist/diabolist.

    Post edited by Grammarsalad on
    KamigoroshiJuliusBorisov
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    edited September 2015
    I agree on giving Champions (and rangers) earlier access to spellcasting. Take a look at SoB's variant mxsplpal.2da and mxsplran.2da - spellcasting starts at like 2nd level, but only advances very slowly, one step every other level. Something like
    1.  0 0 0
    2. 1 0 0
    3. 1 0 0
    4. 2 0 0
    5. 2 0 0
    6. 2 1 0
    7. 2 1 0
    8. 3 1 0
    9. 3 1 0
    10. 3 2 0
    11. 3 2 0
    12. 3 2 1


    And so on. That might even be too slow, but anyway by starting earlier, the tiny little bit of spellcasting gives a little bit more interesting stuff to do at early levels.

    My thought for moving Ur-Priest to the cleric class was that they need not automatically get access to Vigor spells, it doesn't seem like a particularly 'vigorous' kit. But you raise a good point, Divine Aid might be the one sphere they should NOT have any access to. So we can move them back to being Mystics, ooorrrr...

    ...(sorry in advance)...

    Maybe change the mandatory/universal sphere for clerics, from Divine Aid to Healing? So clerics would get Healing and mystics would get Vigor? Just throwing that out there.

    For the classes, I'm inclined toward:

    Cleric
    - Priest
    - Demonologist
    - Alienist (could combine with ^)
    - Ur-Priest
    Mystic
    - Incarnate
    - Druid
    - Elementalist

    I see elementalists as more mystic-y, tapping fundamental forces of the universe.

    On the other hand if you see elementalists as more intellectual, studying the universe and harnessing it's power, then it could be a cleric *and* be combined with alienist and demonologist as a sort of rogue variant of Archivists, who study and gain power from things other than gods. So you end up with something like:
    Cleric
    .... Lathander
    .... Tempus
    .... Talos
    - Priest
    .... Oghma
    .... Helm
    .... Shar
    - Alienist
    .... Demonologist
    .... Oozemaster
    .... Hivemaster
    .... Elementalist (all elements)
    - Ur-Priest
    Mystic
    .... Lathander/Light
    .... Talos/Storm
    .... Air/Akadi
    .... Fire/Kossuth
    - Incarnate
    .... Mystra
    .... Cyric
    - Druid
    .... Forest/Sylvanus
    .... Shapeshifter/Malar
    So here, everything marked by " - " is chosen on kit screens, and everything marked by ".... " is chosen later via dialog.

    GrammarsaladJuliusBorisov
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433


    ...

    Cleric
    .... Lathander
    .... Tempus
    .... Talos
    - Priest
    .... Oghma
    .... Helm
    .... Shar
    - Alienist
    .... Demonologist
    .... Oozemaster
    .... Hivemaster
    .... Elementalist (all elements)
    - Ur-Priest
    Mystic
    .... Lathander/Light
    .... Talos/Storm
    .... Air/Akadi
    .... Fire/Kossuth
    - Incarnate
    .... Mystra
    .... Cyric
    - Druid
    .... Forest/Sylvanus
    .... Shapeshifter/Malar
    So here, everything marked by " - " is chosen on kit screens, and everything marked by ".... " is chosen later via dialog.
    I like this. It's thematic, and makes sense. The alienist focuses on really alien things. I think that most or all elementals and the elemental planes are depicted as truly alien. Unless there are any major objections, I would like to go with this.


    ...
    My thought for moving Ur-Priest to the cleric class was that they need not automatically get access to Vigor spells, it doesn't seem like a particularly 'vigorous' kit. But you raise a good point, Divine Aid might be the one sphere they should NOT have any access to. So we can move them back to being Mystics, ooorrrr...

    ...(sorry in advance)...

    Maybe change the mandatory/universal sphere for clerics, from Divine Aid to Healing? So clerics would get Healing and mystics would get Vigor? Just throwing that out there.
    ....

    I'm good with that. Healing is really essential, and, I think, it makes more sense for the ur-priest than divine aid or vigor

    I agree on giving Champions (and rangers) earlier access to spellcasting. Take a look at SoB's variant mxsplpal.2da and mxsplran.2da - spellcasting starts at like 2nd level, but only advances very slowly, one step every other level. Something like

    1.  0 0 0
    2. 1 0 0
    3. 1 0 0
    4. 2 0 0
    5. 2 0 0
    6. 2 1 0
    7. 2 1 0
    8. 3 1 0
    9. 3 1 0
    10. 3 2 0
    11. 3 2 0
    12. 3 2 1


    And so on. That might even be too slow, but anyway by starting earlier, the tiny little bit of spellcasting gives a little bit more interesting stuff to do at early levels.
    Cool. I thought SoB did this, but I couldn't find it with a quick search. I think a slightly faster profession would be okay....

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    edited September 2015
    Yeah. We can position Alienists as people studying certain facets of the world to obtain power (i.e. magic) from sources other than deities. Because deities tend to be pretty strict about sharing their vision and way of thinking. So maybe they're an alternative to mages - instead of studying dusty tomes to pick up techniques to shape the Weave, they look for power elsewhere. Obviously, the kinds of things that could grant this power are not everyday things, but will necessarily be very alien. Pure inner-planar elements, demons, primordial ooze, etc.

    Mystics, I see as people who don't really worship deities, so much as they have spiritual relationships with forces in the world around them. There may be deities aligned with those forces (Lathander/light, Talos/storms, Kossuth/flames, etc.) but they don't worship, exactly. While a Morninglord is at the temple going through ritualized devotions, the Mystic of Light is out in the scorching desert, dancing euphorically at high noon. Maybe Lathander grants magic because he appreciates the enthusiasm. Maybe it's not that simple. It's meant to be mysterious.

    The Incarnate is similarly not bound to ritual and worship, but he lacks the Mystic's independence. Rather than choosing a path, he is chosen by the deity. More a tool than anything else, a pawn in an immortal chess game he'll likely never understand.

    Grammarsalad
  • KamigoroshiKamigoroshi Member Posts: 4,710
    Alternatively:
    Alienists could also fill the role as semi-psionicists, which is currently a vacant position. To make them sufficial different from Demologists, an Alienist could channel the power of the divine through psionic talent instead of faith. Most intelligent aberrations tend to have psionic abilities (Mind Flayers, Aboleths, ect.) and also possess deities who Alienists with twisted minds could see fit to respect. Inspiration could be perhaps be taken from the Psionic Theurge, Divine Mind, or the Monastic Servant of Auppenser classes/PrC's.

    JuliusBorisovGrammarsaladsubtledoctor
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433

    Alternatively:
    Alienists could also fill the role as semi-psionicists, which is currently a vacant position. To make them sufficial different from Demologists, an Alienist could channel the power of the divine through psionic talent instead of faith. Most intelligent aberrations tend to have psionic abilities (Mind Flayers, Aboleths, ect.) and also possess deities who Alienists with twisted minds could see fit to respect. Inspiration could be perhaps be taken from the Psionic Theurge, Divine Mind, or the Monastic Servant of Auppenser classes/PrC's.

    Or... That could be another type of alienist...? I was actually thinking of that just now. What about Mind Flayers, Aboleths, ect.

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    Well yeah I was using 'Alienist' as the overarching class term (perhaps it should be something else, and Alienist just a subkit). But one of the subkits could have a psionic bent. Theoretically (!), we could make variants of the spells in the Charm/Thought sphere that are flagged as "psionic" instead of "magic" and make them "not dispellable/bypass magic resistance"

    ... though, that would require serious technical consideration and balance consideration (plus maybe new dialog in certain areas??) so it probably won't be in the first release.

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015
    At one time, I wanted to make the barbarian a fighter kit, and use the slot for a psionicist. At the time, I was thinking of using 3.5 rules because it was plausible to simulate them as special abilities, more or less (and personally, I think those rules are exceptionally well designed).

    That project may still see the light of day, but it was labor intensive, to say the least! Another thought was to introduce the mind mage as a wizard kit in TnB--actually, I forgot about that idea until just now--which would have supplemented his (mind focused) magic with psionics. We'll see. Such a system needs to be more fully developed. I used to justdevelop while modding, but I find now that I work better with a (more or less) fleshed out idea.

    In any case, psionics won't be in the first release, unfortunately.

  • wolpakwolpak Member Posts: 384
    The problem is that slot is just a fighter kit. It gets a lot of the fighter-only benefits like saves and other things that they didn't flesh out for kits. You can't even reference it in class.ids.

    I agree on the fleshing out part. I usually just do as much as I can to see if something works and then I add it to my ridiculous spread sheet.

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015
    @wolpak
    Those were the days before I knew anything about scripting. As for the fighter benefits, I made a mistake in my last post. Looking over my old notes, I was going to use the barbarian slot for the psychic warrior.

    On to the blackguard.

    Below is the blackguard description quoted from BGEE:

    "BLACKGUARD: The Blackguard epitomizes evil and is nothing short of a mortal fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputation of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Consorting with demons and devils and serving dark deities, the Blackguard is hated and feared by all. Some people call these villains "anti-paladins" due to their completely evil nature."

    Emphasis mine. I can imagine a distinction between "blackguards" and "anti-paladins". While both are evil to the core, the former makes pacts with demonic and devilish entities, while the latter are servants of dark deities. This might allow enough of a distinction to warrant a blackguard kit. Alignment is no longer the defining feature of the standard paladin/champion, and so a warrior of a dark god, such as Bane, would just be a champion/anti-paladin of Bane. But, if it is a 'holy warrior' of sorts that looks elsewhere other than the gods for power, then it is a blackguard. I suppose the description would be altered to something like:

    "BLACKGUARD: The Blackguard epitomizes evil and is nothing short of a mortal fiend. The quintessential black knight, this villain carries a reputation of the foulest sort that is very well deserved. Often confused for an Anti-Paladin, who is merely a champion of a dark god, they sink to an even lower level, for the Blackguard has turn away the gods completely, and has made a dark pact with a major demon or devil lord. While this pact offers relative autonomy, and great power while the blackguard lives, the price is their very soul. Because of this, the Blackguard is especially depraved, and is hated and feared by all."

    Heh, I'm no writer. But you get the idea

    EDIT: I'll do another write-up asap. I'm going to try to include the ranger in the next one. I have a feeling--admittedly, I haven't tested it yet--that the ranger can be easily modified to avoid falling.

    JuliusBorisov
  • VallmyrVallmyr Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,342
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    Update:

    Base Class: Cleric
    Abilities: 
    - Full armor (I'm thinking of downgrading this to chain armor?)
    - Full casting
    - Turn/rebuke undead
    - Medium/High THAC0 (i.e. better than cleric, but not fighter level)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put a point into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can specialize in deities' favored weapon.
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    Deity access: Helm, Talos, Lathander, Tempus, Bane, Azuth, Deneir, Oghma, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Tyr, Torm
    Cleric kit: Priest/Archivist
    Abilities: 
    - Light armor (studded leather max)
    - Devoted Servant: +1 spell/Lev
    - Lore: 8/lev
    - Magic Item Use
    - Turn/rebuke undead
    - Wizard THAC0
    - D6 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Does not gain specialization/mastery, but some can become proficient in otherwise prohibited weapons.
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6 (as Cleric)
    *Various granted powers as they level up (as Cleric)
    Deity access: Loviatar, Sune, Ilmater, Talona, Talos, Lathander, Mykrul, Azuth, Deneir, Oghma, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Leira, Beshaba, Talona
    2015/09/02: Moved to Cleric Kit
    Cleric Kit: Ur-Priest
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to Mystic
    - No Turn Undead
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Sphere Access: High Access: Maximum access possible within the constraints of the engine. SPECIFICS TO BE DETERMINED.
    - Steal Spells: Drain spells from other casters to replenish their own slots. Ability improves with level (and will hopefully be useful enough to compensate, with expanded spell access, for missing granted abilities).

    2015/09/02:
    May not have access to healing, ie quintessential priest spells, but have a limited ability to drain hp from enemies to compensate.

    Deity access: None, despises the gods.
    RESTRICTIONS: Non-good only
    Base Class: Mystic (was druid)
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - +1 spells/level (Compared to Cleric)
    - Does not Turn/rebuke undead
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain Mastery in deities' favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Low access: 10 spheres, major access to ~5
    *Sphere Focus: Gains early access to one of their available (Major access) spheres
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    Deity access: Akadi, Malar, Eldath, Chauntea, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Mielikki, Moander, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Talos, Selune, Mystra, Shar, Beshaba, Talona

    (If the elementalist materializes as a separate kit, the various elemental lords may be removed from this and the druid kit to be exclusive to that kit.)
    2015/09/04 Moved to Mystic Kit
    Cleric kit: Incarnate/Chosen
    Abilities: 
    - No Armor
    - Divine Savant: +2 spells/level, Casting level +2
    - Unpracticed Caster: - 3 casting speed
    - Turn/rebuke undead
    - Wizard THAC0
    - D6 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Does not gain specialization/mastery, nor access to any additional weapon training.
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6 (as Cleric)
    *Various granted powers as they level up (as Cleric)
    Deity access: Bane, Loviatar, Sune, Ilmater, Talona, Talos, Lathander, Mykrul, Deneir, Oghma, Mystra, Selune, Shar, Leira, Beshaba, Talona
    Mystic Kit: Druid
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to Mystic
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain Mastery in deities' favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Average access: 12 spheres, major access to ~6 (as Cleric)
    *Sphere Focus: Gains early access to one of their available (Major access) spheres
    *Various granted powers as they level up
    *Shape Shift. Specifics vary by Deity
    Deity access: Auril, Akadi, Malar, Eldath, Chauntea, Grumbar, Istishia, Kossuth, Mielikki, Moander, Shaundakul, Silvanus, Talona.

    Restrictions: Must have a neutral component to alignment

    (SoB has done a lot of great work on druids, and the plan is to incorporate that work into this one. For example, standard Forest Druids of Silvanus will shape shift into wolf, rat etc as in that mod. Druids of Malar--at least one sect--will be SoB's lycanthropic druids, and so on.)

    2015/09/02
    As for the Totemic druid, I think that the shaman is the best home for that one.

    2015/09/04 Kept it as a mystic kit for now. It just seems to fit better here. Each subkit will have a sort of sphere focus which seems to be a mystic thing
    Mystic Kit: Alienist
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Full Casting (i.e. as Cleric), so -1/level compared to the mystic
    - Medium THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - Familiar (determined by specialty) (?)
    - D8 HD
    - 'Simple Weapon Proficiency' (can put points into spears, short swords, daggers, short bows and crossbows in addition to the standard blunt weapons)
    - Select Focus:
    *Sphere access: Generally very low, even for a mystic. Focused. ~4 major, ~8 total
    *Sphere Focus: Gains early access to spells related to their focus.
    *Gains various powers related to their focus as they level up
    Deity access/Subkits: Does not select a deity per se, but selects from a number of 'interests' that control sphere access and special abilities. Specialties include:

    2015/09/04: Merged with the alienist kit
    - Elementalist
    * Sphere Focus: all four elemental spheres. No major access to any other sphere(?) Minor access to ~4 more spheres.
    * Shapeshift into various greater and lesser elemental forms
    * Elemental familiar(?)
    * More(?)

    - Oozemaster
    * Sphere Focus: Unique ooze sphere(?)
    * Shapeshift into various ooze forms
    * Ooze familiar(?)
    * More(?)

    - Hivemaster
    * Sphere Focus: Unique insect sphere(?). Animal(?)
    * Shapeshift into various insectoid forms; perhaps even a swarm if I can make it work
    * Giant Insect or arachnid familiar(?)
    * More(?)

    2015/09/04: Merged with the alienist kit
    - Diabolist
    * Sphere Focus: (?).
    * Shapeshift into various devilish forms
    * Imp familiar(?)
    * More(?)

    2015/09/04: Merged with the alienist kit
    - Demonologist
    * Sphere Focus: (?).
    * Shapeshift into various demonic forms
    * Quazit familiar(?)
    * More(?)


    I see both the alienist types as something straight out of Cthulu: they become obsessed with something totally alien and monstrous, are more than a little unhinged, but can gain great power, even if ultimately they are consumed by it.
    Base Class: Champion (was paladin)
    Abilities: 
    - Heavy Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - Weakened Turn/rebuke undead
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Lay on Hands...I suppose
    - Smite Infidel (as is, but not limited to evil)
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain High Mastery in god's favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by deity (minor access as major access for cleric versions? These guys will still need universal access to something. Actually, I have a feeling that it will have to be the exact same as the cleric, so divine aid--which is fine)
    Deity access: Helm, Bane, Torm, Tyr, Tempus, Kelemvor (will be undead slayers; will make them have full turn undead), Lathander (ditto on the undead turning).
    Champion Kit: Inquisitor
    Abilities: 
    - Heavy Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - No Turn/rebuke undead
    - No Smite
    - No Lay on hands
    - Special abilities as describe in SoB
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Can gain High Mastery in god's favored weapon
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by deity (will gain minor access to the magic and knowledge spheres, even if their patron only generally gives minor access to it. Should have access to fewer spheres than the standard Champion)
    Deity access: Bane, Mystra, Azuth, Kelemvor...depends on sphere access. TO BE UPDATED
    Champion Kit: Zealot
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - Turn/rebuke undead (as is)
    - Smite
    - No Lay on hands
    - Frenzy (a rage-like ability that will hopefully compensate for their lack of armor and weapon training)
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Gains the following bonuses, the specifics of which vary by selected deity:
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by deity.
    Deity access: I want to include just about every deity here. Zealots aren't part of any church hierarchy, or order; they just 'zealously' follow some god of their own accord out of pure faith, and are rewarded for it.
    Champion Kit: Blackguard
    Abilities: 
    - Light Armor
    - Light spellcasting (as is, though I'm contemplating earlier access)
    - No Turn/rebuke undead (as is)
    - Absorb Health, poison weapon, Aura of Despair
    - Full THAC0 (i.e. No change)
    - D10 HD
    - Can gain Mastery in any weapon (High Mastery in god's chosen weapon)
    - Select Deity: Selects a demon or devil patron, which determines sphere access:
    *Sphere access: Minor access only; determined by demon or devil patron.
    Deity access: List demon and devil lords here...

    KamigoroshiJuliusBorisov
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015
    The first post is updated with the latest versions of the base classes. The only change is that priests won't be able to use magic items. I'll have to save that sort of thing for a future item mod that is on the back burner. Also, in going to worry about rangers in the next build.

    Next up: deity kits!

    JuliusBorisov
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015
    Okay. Note the mod name change! So, now this mod does not have the same acronym as pnp, or "pen and paper". Thank @subtledoctor for pointing that out! Also please thank him for the wonderful sphere system that he is developing. It's coming along beautifully!

    Okay, to the Gods. Let's begin with the 'standard' gods that are already in the game. Boring, i know, but they are a given, and they set the standard for the others, so they have to be included.

    Let's start with Helm. I believe that there are clerics of Helm and champions of Helm. These will look a bit different from each other. Clerics will be essential the 'specialty priests' of Helm, named "Watchers", while champions will be "Everwatch Knights", which is the name of Paladins of Helm. Helm will also support Inquisitors named, "The Vigilant Eyes of the God", and Zealots, called, "Companions of the One True Vision". (ha, all actual order names! I love it when it all comes together! )

    All of his kits are combat oriented, but Watchers will have a number of special abilities related to 'watching' and such, whereas others will be more combat oriented. Right now, I have a build for the standard watchers that looks like this:

    Watcher of Helm

    – Watchers automatically gain a proficiency point in longsword. In addition, watchers of helm can specialize in the longsword.
    - Gains an additional attack every two rounds at 7th level. This bonus increases to a full attack per round at 13th level
    - Heightened Awareness: +1 bonus to AC and +2 bonus to save vs breath
    - Can cast Glyph of Warding, as the spell, as a special ability once per day at first level. The watcher gains an additional use every five additional levels of experience.
    - Can cast Seeking Sword as a special ablity once per day at fourth level. The watcher gains an additional use at levels 8, 12, 16 and 20.
    SEEKING SWORD: This spell creates a sword in the Cleric's hand that cannot be dropped or unequipped. The sword is enchanted as a +4 weapon and provides a +4 THAC0 bonus, but no damage bonus. It deals 2d4 damage to any target it hits. The weapon sets the Cleric's number of attacks per round to 3 and lasts for 1 round per level. While it is equipped, the wielder cannot cast further spells.
    - Can cast Helm's eye as a special ability once per day at 9th level. The watcher gains an additional use at levels 11, 13, 15, 17 and 19. Helm's eye is equivalent to the wizard spell, wizard eye.

    Spheres:
    Major:
    - Divine Aid
    - Life
    - Protection
    - War
    - Knowledge
    - Vigor
    Minor:
    - Magic
    - Destruction
    - Affliction
    - Fire
    - Light
    - Death
    I believe that I can give them an ability that makes them automatically awaken if they are attacked, and I might give that to them so they are never asleep when attacked while camping. This is also an idea for a potential wizard cantrip--alarm--that may find its way into TnB. If so, then watchers will probably also have this as a special ability. Heh, needs testing though.

    KamigoroshiJuliusBorisov
  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    Bit of a status update so people know where we are with development.

    I've got a version of the sphere system that is more or less fully functional. It applies spheres to the existing kits, making them really distinct in terms of magical abilities. Modders can easily make their cleric kits compatible with the system by the procedure I described on page 1 of this thread. I'm not 100% happy with it, and I may tweak it, but in any event it works right now.

    If anyone wants to kick the tires a bit with a private beta, PM me. If any modders are making kits and want talk about making them compatible with it, PM me.

    So, if that was step 1, then the remaining steps for the mod will be:

    2) Adapting the kits we already have (basically, the Scales of Balance kits) to this mod;

    3) Making even more new kits

    4) Fashioning the kit/deity selection system (I'm hoping this can be extensible for other mod kits just like the sphere system... but I'm not expert in this area.)

    5) Figuring out what to do about weapon usability/favored weapons. (This is pretty easy to code - in fact the code is already in SoB! We just need to decide whether it will be part of the spheres component, or part of the deity selection component, or a totally separate optional component.)

    Grammarsalad
  • GrammarsaladGrammarsalad Member Posts: 2,433
    edited September 2015
    The fall semester just started for me. What this means for you is that you'll be seeing fewer updates from me. I'll be spending most of my free time modding.

    I have a couple things to add to the above:

    2) I also have a few deity kits in addition to the SoB kits that will be adopted to the sphere system. (Some this weekend).

    4) edit. The deity selection system Will be in the next release.
    This:
    "I think it is doable by reading kitlist, but I have to work it out." Is about compatibility with other mods. In the first release, other cleric kits will be displayed as normal and be alternatives to the kits added in this mod

  • subtledoctorsubtledoctor Member Posts: 10,689
    Turning to substantive issues, and looking at the Watcher of Helm kit as the first example:

    I'm generally in favor of fewer, rather than more, special kit abilities. And that At her kit has a *lot* of special abilities.

    1. My general rationale is that this game only involves a certain limited number of tactics, and with 5 or 6 special bonuse tmrs 30 or 50 kits, we could easy run out of bonuses that are creative and interesting. I'd rather give each kit 1-3 abilities that are truly unique and really hrlp define the kit's theme.

    2. I really don't love giving cleric kits (or rogue or wizard kits) the "extra APR at levels 7 and 13 just like warriors" bonus. 1st, it is hugely hugely powerful. 2nd, I (personally) don't like making one class the equal of another class. The cleric XP table is faster than the warrior table, so this would actually let them reach higher APR *faster* than warriors. I would prefer Something like a single 0.5 bump, at level 9 or 10. That gives them more attacks than other clerics, but still not as many as warriors.

    Even better imho, would be no base APR bonus at all, instead let them specialize in weapons and allow them to get the specialization APR bonus.

    Vallmyr
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,241
    maybe you should strive to give each kit about the same number of advantages and disadvantages
    for example - 3 advantages (which include more complex, progressing abilities) and 2-3 disadvantages. that'd look nice.

    also, to have more disadvantages than just one as in vanilla (which is the case for most kits) would maybe make the base class more appealing

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