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Shadowdancer Solo against enemies with see invisibility

RedWizardRedWizard Member Posts: 242
A normal thief can use HLA traps to easily dispatch threats that can see through invisibility/stealth like dragons, demons, liches and ToB bosses, and assuming solo by the time those enemies start showing you're bound to have HLAs already.
What's a Shadowdancer solo to do against those foes? UAI shenanigans?

Comments

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

    semiticgodYannirwoowoovoodooT2av
  • zolzol Member Posts: 23
    Arunsun said:

    I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

    Really?!!! Even dealt with Tahazzar's party? Congrats!!!

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581
    zol said:

    Arunsun said:

    I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

    Really?!!! Even dealt with Tahazzar's party? Congrats!!!
    I must say that's a fight I skipped

  • semiticgodsemiticgod Member, Moderator Posts: 13,626
    When hiding is not an option, a Shadowdancer must stoop to the level of an ordinary thief, and fight with weapons alone. One of the weaknesses of the kit, I'm sure, is that you become dependent on its strengths.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,807
    A Shadowdancer is still a thief, although without traps. So, any spell in the game, casted from a scroll, is at his service.

    Don't forget special Shadowdancer's HLAs. Especially a Shadow Twin - it creates a duplicate of the Shadowdancer for 2 turns, at 60% of the level at which the Shadowdancer is currently on. This way you can cast even more spells from scrolls.

    Add to that a Simulacrum helmet, and you get a party of high-level mages.

  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,581

    When hiding is not an option, a Shadowdancer must stoop to the level of an ordinary thief, and fight with weapons alone. One of the weaknesses of the kit, I'm sure, is that you become dependent on its strengths.

    And even worse than that because they do not even have traps

  • T2avT2av Member Posts: 202
    Arunsun said:

    I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

    How heroic of you lol xD

  • sparrow13xsparrow13x Member Posts: 120
    I tried a solo half-orc Shadowdancer a while back and they have a really tough time with any fight where they can't go into stealth every time it's available. I found I using hit and run attacks and trying desperately not to die more than I was enjoying backstabs.

    If you're going to try a Shadowdancer I would probably dual one to Fighter once you get enough thieving points (10-13 probably). That way you can actually stand and fight when stealth isn't working out.

  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

    T2av
  • T2avT2av Member Posts: 202
    Grum said:

    I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

    But you lose out on shadowdancer specific HLA :(

    Francoiselminster
  • Sylvus_MoonbowSylvus_Moonbow Member Posts: 995
    edited September 2015
    Non-detection spells or items.

    "Non-detectable by magical means such as detect invisibility and scrying."

    Stay hidden when you need to!

    Aaaaawwwwwwww y eaaaaahhhhhh!

  • sparrow13xsparrow13x Member Posts: 120
    Pretty sure True Sight goes through non-detection though, which is what most enemy mages will cast if they think you're sneaking around.

    semiticgod
  • FrancoisFrancois Member Posts: 452

    Pretty sure True Sight goes through non-detection though, which is what most enemy mages will cast if they think you're sneaking around.

    Ha, but that's why you have shadow step. You can go and backstab them before they finish auto-casting.

  • sparrow13xsparrow13x Member Posts: 120
    That is true, you just need to hope that it either kills them or interrupts their casting or you'll be screwed for the rest of the fight. Lately (since starting SCS) I've seen a lot of mages take a beating and still cast their spell normally so it's never a guarantee.

  • DaevelonDaevelon Member Posts: 555
    edited September 2015

    Pretty sure True Sight goes through non-detection though, which is what most enemy mages will cast if they think you're sneaking around.

    True Sight goes through non-detection if you use an invisibility spell; if you use "hide in shadow" with not-detection you will keep the invisibility. At least it works like this with the cloak of Non-Detection, i don't know with the spell.
    I don't know why it works like this, maybe because "hide in shadow" is a skill and not an illusion.
    Anyway few enemies can see you even through it, like the demon that has the deck of many things, i think it's racial

    JuliusBorisovelminsterlolien
  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 18,807
    @Daevelon is right.

    If you have a character who is *stealthed*, i.e. using a thief/ranger skill, and she has the cloak of non-detection, nothing will find her. Not even True Sight.

    If she uses a potion of invisibility, the invisibility spell, or improved invisibility, then Non-detection will not save her.

    Check https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/13339/what-does-non-detection-really-do/p1

    sparrow13xthespace
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,099
    T2av said:

    Grum said:

    I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

    But you lose out on shadowdancer specific HLA :(
    Do you really need them?

    You can use Vhalior's helm to make a clone, which is better than the shadowdancer HLA.

    Shadowdancers can maze enemies...something I've never done before, even with mages. And the maze that shadowdancers can do isn't reliable.

    You still get to jump into the plane of shadow, hide, backstab with all of the bonuses of a lvl 13 shadowdancer...only you get grand mastery as well.

    Grandmastery katanas, backstab, greater whirlwind, hide, backstab, greater whirlwind. So much more useful than any shadowdancer HLA.

    And for enemies who you can't backstab and who can always see you? Well, you are still a fighter who can go toe-to-toe with them. Something pure thieves just can't do.

  • T2avT2av Member Posts: 202
    edited September 2015
    Grum said:

    T2av said:

    Grum said:

    I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

    But you lose out on shadowdancer specific HLA :(
    Do you really need them?

    You can use Vhalior's helm to make a clone, which is better than the shadowdancer HLA.

    Shadowdancers can maze enemies...something I've never done before, even with mages. And the maze that shadowdancers can do isn't reliable.

    You still get to jump into the plane of shadow, hide, backstab with all of the bonuses of a lvl 13 shadowdancer...only you get grand mastery as well.

    Grandmastery katanas, backstab, greater whirlwind, hide, backstab, greater whirlwind. So much more useful than any shadowdancer HLA.

    And for enemies who you can't backstab and who can always see you? Well, you are still a fighter who can go toe-to-toe with them. Something pure thieves just can't do.
    I'm a purist. I feel the Shadowdancer is a special and unique class, that should be played singleclass. Adding a fighter ruins that.for me, by making it increasingly OP. I enjoy thinking outside the box and using unique strategies to overcome something.

    Theives minus the swashbuckler, shouldnt be going toe to toe with anything. If you wanted that, play a fighter.. Theives are rogues who find weaknesses in the enemy to exploit them for advantage.. This requires strategy, cunning and guile to achieve. Standing toe to toe, is for low intelligence half orcs...but thats just my opinion lol

    Sidenote: ewww katanas....

    subtledoctorArdul
  • KaigenKaigen Member Posts: 1,567
    Grum said:

    And for enemies who you can't backstab and who can always see you? Well, you are still a fighter who can go toe-to-toe with them. Something pure thieves just can't do.

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the way dual-classing works, doesn't a Shadowdancer 13-> Fighter end up with almost the same HP as a single class thief? You've used up all your dice roll levels at that point. And you have the same AC as a single class thief if you want to wear armor and still be able to hide against other enemies. You'll hit harder as a Shadowdancer->Fighter, but I don't think you'll end up with any more staying power in melee.

  • sparrow13xsparrow13x Member Posts: 120
    Kaigen said:

    Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the way dual-classing works, doesn't a Shadowdancer 13-> Fighter end up with almost the same HP as a single class thief? You've used up all your dice roll levels at that point. And you have the same AC as a single class thief if you want to wear armor and still be able to hide against other enemies. You'll hit harder as a Shadowdancer->Fighter, but I don't think you'll end up with any more staying power in melee.

    Yes he will because he is dual-classed after HP progression slows to 3/level. So a Shadowdancer->Fighter will eventually end up with good thac0 and APR, but he will always be stuck with a thief's HP.

    It's an interesting concept and one that I've considered doing but ultimately I don't feel like the benefits are worth the extremely long wait period before you get your thief skills back, during which time you'll have an extremely hard time surviving. You also miss out on the thief HLA's which make the game so much easier for a solo character.

    I'd just go with a Mage-Thief instead and make liberal use of Mislead/Invisibility to land your backstabs. At least this way you'll have some magic between those swords and your spleen, even if you wont have the world's greatest thac0.

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