Shadowdancer Solo against enemies with see invisibility

RedWizard

A normal thief can use HLA traps to easily dispatch threats that can see through invisibility/stealth like dragons, demons, liches and ToB bosses, and assuming solo by the time those enemies start showing you're bound to have HLAs already.
What's a Shadowdancer solo to do against those foes? UAI shenanigans?

Arunsun

I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

zol

Arunsun said:

I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

Really?!!! Even dealt with Tahazzar's party? Congrats!!!

Arunsun

zol said:

Arunsun said:

I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

Really?!!! Even dealt with Tahazzar's party? Congrats!!!

I must say that's a fight I skipped

semiticgoddess

When hiding is not an option, a Shadowdancer must stoop to the level of an ordinary thief, and fight with weapons alone. One of the weaknesses of the kit, I'm sure, is that you become dependent on its strengths.

JuliusBorisov

A Shadowdancer is still a thief, although without traps. So, any spell in the game, casted from a scroll, is at his service.

Don't forget special Shadowdancer's HLAs. Especially a Shadow Twin - it creates a duplicate of the Shadowdancer for 2 turns, at 60% of the level at which the Shadowdancer is currently on. This way you can cast even more spells from scrolls.

Add to that a Simulacrum helmet, and you get a party of high-level mages.

Arunsun

semiticgod said:

When hiding is not an option, a Shadowdancer must stoop to the level of an ordinary thief, and fight with weapons alone. One of the weaknesses of the kit, I'm sure, is that you become dependent on its strengths.

And even worse than that because they do not even have traps

T2av

Arunsun said:

I made a Solo Shadowdancer run a couple of months ago, and to deal with them I used Tuigan bow and ran around

How heroic of you lol xD

sparrow13x

I tried a solo half-orc Shadowdancer a while back and they have a really tough time with any fight where they can't go into stealth every time it's available. I found I using hit and run attacks and trying desperately not to die more than I was enjoying backstabs.

If you're going to try a Shadowdancer I would probably dual one to Fighter once you get enough thieving points (10-13 probably). That way you can actually stand and fight when stealth isn't working out.

Grum

I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

T2av

Grum said:

I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

But you lose out on shadowdancer specific HLA

Sylvus_Moonbow

Non-detection spells or items.

"Non-detectable by magical means such as detect invisibility and scrying."

Stay hidden when you need to!

Aaaaawwwwwwww y eaaaaahhhhhh!

sparrow13x

Pretty sure True Sight goes through non-detection though, which is what most enemy mages will cast if they think you're sneaking around.

Francois

sparrow13x said:

Pretty sure True Sight goes through non-detection though, which is what most enemy mages will cast if they think you're sneaking around.

Ha, but that's why you have shadow step. You can go and backstab them before they finish auto-casting.

sparrow13x

That is true, you just need to hope that it either kills them or interrupts their casting or you'll be screwed for the rest of the fight. Lately (since starting SCS) I've seen a lot of mages take a beating and still cast their spell normally so it's never a guarantee.

Daevelon

sparrow13x said:

Pretty sure True Sight goes through non-detection though, which is what most enemy mages will cast if they think you're sneaking around.

True Sight goes through non-detection if you use an invisibility spell; if you use "hide in shadow" with not-detection you will keep the invisibility. At least it works like this with the cloak of Non-Detection, i don't know with the spell.
I don't know why it works like this, maybe because "hide in shadow" is a skill and not an illusion.
Anyway few enemies can see you even through it, like the demon that has the deck of many things, i think it's racial

JuliusBorisov

@Daevelon is right.

If you have a character who is *stealthed*, i.e. using a thief/ranger skill, and she has the cloak of non-detection, nothing will find her. Not even True Sight.

If she uses a potion of invisibility, the invisibility spell, or improved invisibility, then Non-detection will not save her.

Check https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/13339/what-does-non-detection-really-do/p1

Grum

T2av said:

Grum said:

I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

But you lose out on shadowdancer specific HLA

Do you really need them?

You can use Vhalior's helm to make a clone, which is better than the shadowdancer HLA.

Shadowdancers can maze enemies...something I've never done before, even with mages. And the maze that shadowdancers can do isn't reliable.

You still get to jump into the plane of shadow, hide, backstab with all of the bonuses of a lvl 13 shadowdancer...only you get grand mastery as well.

Grandmastery katanas, backstab, greater whirlwind, hide, backstab, greater whirlwind. So much more useful than any shadowdancer HLA.

And for enemies who you can't backstab and who can always see you? Well, you are still a fighter who can go toe-to-toe with them. Something pure thieves just can't do.

T2av

Grum said:

T2av said:

Grum said:

I had a lvl 13 shadow dancer dual to fighter. All of the strengths of both classes. That is what I'd recommend.

But you lose out on shadowdancer specific HLA

Do you really need them?

You can use Vhalior's helm to make a clone, which is better than the shadowdancer HLA.

Shadowdancers can maze enemies...something I've never done before, even with mages. And the maze that shadowdancers can do isn't reliable.

You still get to jump into the plane of shadow, hide, backstab with all of the bonuses of a lvl 13 shadowdancer...only you get grand mastery as well.

Grandmastery katanas, backstab, greater whirlwind, hide, backstab, greater whirlwind. So much more useful than any shadowdancer HLA.

And for enemies who you can't backstab and who can always see you? Well, you are still a fighter who can go toe-to-toe with them. Something pure thieves just can't do.

I'm a purist. I feel the Shadowdancer is a special and unique class, that should be played singleclass. Adding a fighter ruins that.for me, by making it increasingly OP. I enjoy thinking outside the box and using unique strategies to overcome something.

Theives minus the swashbuckler, shouldnt be going toe to toe with anything. If you wanted that, play a fighter.. Theives are rogues who find weaknesses in the enemy to exploit them for advantage.. This requires strategy, cunning and guile to achieve. Standing toe to toe, is for low intelligence half orcs...but thats just my opinion lol

Sidenote: ewww katanas....

[Deleted User]

Grum said:

And for enemies who you can't backstab and who can always see you? Well, you are still a fighter who can go toe-to-toe with them. Something pure thieves just can't do.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the way dual-classing works, doesn't a Shadowdancer 13-> Fighter end up with almost the same HP as a single class thief? You've used up all your dice roll levels at that point. And you have the same AC as a single class thief if you want to wear armor and still be able to hide against other enemies. You'll hit harder as a Shadowdancer->Fighter, but I don't think you'll end up with any more staying power in melee.

sparrow13x

Kaigen said:

Correct me if I'm wrong, but with the way dual-classing works, doesn't a Shadowdancer 13-> Fighter end up with almost the same HP as a single class thief? You've used up all your dice roll levels at that point. And you have the same AC as a single class thief if you want to wear armor and still be able to hide against other enemies. You'll hit harder as a Shadowdancer->Fighter, but I don't think you'll end up with any more staying power in melee.

Yes he will because he is dual-classed after HP progression slows to 3/level. So a Shadowdancer->Fighter will eventually end up with good thac0 and APR, but he will always be stuck with a thief's HP.

It's an interesting concept and one that I've considered doing but ultimately I don't feel like the benefits are worth the extremely long wait period before you get your thief skills back, during which time you'll have an extremely hard time surviving. You also miss out on the thief HLA's which make the game so much easier for a solo character.

I'd just go with a Mage-Thief instead and make liberal use of Mislead/Invisibility to land your backstabs. At least this way you'll have some magic between those swords and your spleen, even if you wont have the world's greatest thac0.

SirBaldur

prob no one still on this crazy old thread, but i wondered if anyone ever got through tob doing solo shadowdancer? i just had a very tough fight only mid-SoA that really i only won bec of a very non-immersive game limitation, and makes me think it won't be possible to get through tob (Posted about it here)

XDarkStrikerX

@SirBaldur I personnally never played a solo thief kit up to ToB but i'm sure that it could be more than possible even if ShadowDancers are lacking traps. There are a few approaches you can try for sure and i'm 100% sure that some of them are going to work. I really think that all classes are able to complete the vanilla trilogy with proper strategy and planification probably up to insane difficulty.

I guess that you're not using SCS or Ascension here so you should be able to use clone quickslots without issues so take as many useful scrolls as possible, those alone should be enough for the fight (thanks UAI). Of course if immersion in combat is what is important for you, well a solo challenge might not be the greatest idea honestly as the game is just not meant to be played that way, it should be for a challenge and to test your knowledge. Some classes will for sure require some level of cheese and honestly, the game is overall based around it to push through some challenging encounters. Shadowdancer is an overall weak class for the endgame just so you know (thief with no traps ), it is certainly not an ideal class for a first solo trilogy playthrough and will require some good meta knowledge for sure during certain encounters.

Scrolls i would hunt for: PFMW, Skull trap, Simulacrum, Wish, Spell immunity, Mordenkainen Sword, Gate, Protection from Evil, Absolute immunty, Shapechange, Improved Haste, Timestop, Incendiary Cloud, Death Fog, Abi Dalzim Horrid Wilting, Improved Mantle, Imprisonment, Enchanted Weapon, Farsight, Wizard Eye.

Wands: Of Spellstrike, of cloudkill, of reversal, of Wonder.

Some good gear to keep for that fight (there is more but that's a good start): Roranach's Horn, Helm of Balduran, Ring of Gaxx, Vhailor's Helm, Frost Embrace, ring of Fire control, ring of Earth control, cloak of mirroring, amulet of sedarine, amulet of power (immunity to level drain, MR), Specter Ring, Amulet of the master Harper.

Strat for the pools:
Incendiary cloud scrolls should easily clear pool 1 and 2, especially with some mordy sword tanks. For pool 3 some Mordy swords, maybe Gate for a demon and you could go fish for a 1 hit kill against the Solar using Ravager +6 in timestop (10% per hit) and stone the Mariliths with the Wand of Wonder if you struggle keeping them breached. Additionnally you can simply switch into the Slayer and go with your Shadow Form HLA. Wish rest as needed using clones and power word: Reload, make sure to use a potion of insight on quickslot if your wisdom is lower than 18.

For Amelyssan, in the Vanilla game as i remember, she can be affected by poison (i think, not 100% sure on this, there was a point when she was for sure but it might be different now). Her combat buffs are also dispelled by Pierce Shield from the wand of Spellstrike or Ruby Ray from the Rod of Reversal, breach won't work as it is a unique version of the combat protection spells. Her AC is -8 and Thac0 -7. Now things you can try:

-Pierce shield from wand of spellstriking + wand of cloudkill (not sure about that one as i said). Skulltrap and Abi-Dalzim can also be used for some ranged damage.
-Using clones to setup a ton of skull trap somewhere on the platform, make yourself immune to magic or use cloak of mirroring, pierce shield her, use a timestop scroll, drag her into the traps as she's immune to it, timestop end and boom.

-Slayer form (your best bet i think, especially with UAI), can be mixed with Shadow Form HLA (could also reload for Wish: Hardiness for some pretty high temporary damage resistance but i don't think that's necessary), use a spell immunity:Abjuration before the fight, facetank and focus on her using your PFMW and absolute immunity scrolls as needed. Make sure to make yourself immune to magic damage using a potion or scroll so you can stay as the slayer indefinitely. Your equipment bonuses with stack with slayer form if you re-equip them once transformed so you can get low enough AC to be extremely hard to hit, which i think should be good enough to make you complete the entire throne fight without having to Wish rest at all considering proper usage of scrolls and proper planification/execution, thanks to UAI, still keep some potions around as the Rod of Resurection isn't a full heal anymore. You could use Shadow Twin for easier debuffing while your character focus on damage. Honestly once you're done buying things, feel free to switch to slayer form if needed, it can be pretty useful on classes with bad melee potential when everything else fail. If you need it before that, well you can always buy it back to 18 and you should be able to have unlimited money with pickpocket which really balance things out.

Slayer AC rough calc should be : -4 Slayer base, -2 ring of gaxx, -1 earth control ring, -5 darksteel shield, -1 helm of balduran, amulet of the master harper -3, greater Evasion/evasion for cap of -20. -6 dex, for -26. Now if you want max Slashing AC, Gorgon plate -7, Golden Girdle of Urnst -3 for -36. If under improved invisibility (shouldn't be necessary i think), this should put you to -30 base and -40 slashing, which should be more than enough to crush the 3 encounters without problems i think as you'll only get hit on crits. You should have -7 Thac0 at 4 APR which should be enough to hit her 90% of the time, -8 with legacy of the masters (95%), 4.5 APR with Spec gloves but that means completing the final seal in Watcher's Keep. Remember to use pierce shield from a wand of spellstriking to dispel her protections. I'm sure your shadowdancer HLAs can come in handy to make the slayer form even more efficient, assuming the Maze one also work.

If you make it there, good luck!