Solo a rebalanced Shapeshifter through SCS

sparrow13x

Hey guys,

I'm considering trying a solo Shapeshifter run through BG2, with the rebalancing in place to give it the stats it's supposed to have. I'm skipping BG1 because:

a) Prot. from Normal Weapons would make the game a complete joke.
and
b) The stat boosts from tomes make virtually no difference since the Werewolf forms have their own stat values.

I just had a few questions for anyone who thinks they could offer some insight!

1. How viable is this for SCS? I just downloaded it the other day and a lot of early game fights are suddenly way harder... I know the vanilla game encounters like the back of my hand but in SCS even low level mages can use things like Mantle. How does a Shapeshifter deal with creatures than can only be hit by +4-6?

2. Does anyone know if weapon proficiencies apply to the new tweaked Shapeshifter? I feel like having a point in Daggers made his thac0 a bit higher but I can't be sure. He also seems to be able to dual-wield the claw with another weapon so perhaps adding Belm in the off hand is a good idea - especially since I have the weapon styles for all tweak installed.

3. What gear should I hunt for right out of Chateau Irenicus? I was thinking the standard ring +2, Cloak of the Sewers etc. but I was curious if anyone had any other suggestions for a first-time druid player.

4. Does the Greater Werewolf perform in ToB? I normally play fighter-types and have amazing thac0 and greater whirlwind so I'm not sure if the werewolf will be up to snuff.

5. What are the key spells to memorize?

Thanks for any responses!

semiticgoddess

The SCS Shapeshifter won't have immunity to normal weapons. That's a different shapeshifting mod, I think. Either way, it shouldn't be available at level 1.

You'll generally have to wait out Mantle spells. Dual-wielding with a +4 dagger or scimitar is possible if you go deep into Watcher's Keep.

Proficiencies won't affect your werewolf weapon THAC0. The token from SCS sets your dagger proficiency to a certain value, overriding whatever you normally have.

There's no item or weapon that a Shapeshifter needs more than another class would. Belm is good, but otherwise you can rely on the same items you normally like. Hoard potions, though; they're plentiful and very useful in SCS.

You won't have the THAC0 of a fighter late-game, but you will have strong summons to do the heavy lifting. You'll still be fine in TOB.

Spells? Entangle and Call Lightning in BG1. For BG2, probably shift more to Armor of Faith, Call Woodland Beings, Death Ward, Ironskins, Chaotic Commands, True Seeing, Magic Resistance (on enemies to lower MR), Insect Plague if your target doesn't have Fire Shield active, Conjure Fire Elemental, Wondrous Recall, Nature's Beauty, Firestorm, Earthquake, and your HLAs.

Watch out for Breach and Remove Magic, and get some fire resistance for BG1. I've seen SCS BG1 mages throw out Sunfire a lot.

sparrow13x

Thanks for your response.

I think I installed BG2 Tweaks first and took their version of the Shapeshifter because I definitely have prot. from normal weapons right now. If I install the SCS version do I otherwise get everything else a Werewolf should receive (i.e. 1d12 slashing claws, unlocked magic resist etc.)? If the SCS version is otherwise the same as the BG2 Tweaks one then I might consider installing that instead because immunity to normal weapons does seem pretty OP in the early game.

As for proficiencies, what about weapon styles? I.e. if I have single weapon style will I have the bonus AC and crit chance?

semiticgoddess

Single weapon style will give the standard bonuses, as the token counts as a one-handed weapon. The base damage is 1d6. I think 1d6 is fair, since this is a Druid lycanthrope, which shouldn't be quite as strong as one of the non-spellcasting werewolves you fight here and there. You can tweak it if you use DLTCEP or Near Infinity. I use NI since DLTCEP seems to be incapable of editing anything when using Windows Vista/7/8. Both are pretty user-friendly.

The resistances from the tokens are indeed unlocked; items and spells can increase it. For the SCS version, the bonuses are:
-Level 1: Lesser Werewolf Token
1d6, +1 enchantment, 1 attack per round, haste, and a Strength value and maybe some resistances I don't remember (I think 18 Strength and 10 magic resistance).
-Level 7: Werewolf Token
1d6, +2 enchantment, 1 APR, haste, 19 STR, 20 magic resistance
-Level 13: Greater Werewolf Token
1d6, +3 enchantment, 2 APR, haste, 21 STR, 40 MR, 50% resistance to fire, cold, electricity, and acid, and 1 HP regeneration per second.

Your AC is also set very low in each form, generally better than a fighter in full armor.

Wowo

semiticgod said:

Single weapon style will give the standard bonuses, as the token counts as a one-handed weapon. The base damage is 1d6. I think 1d6 is fair, since this is a Druid lycanthrope, which shouldn't be quite as strong as one of the non-spellcasting werewolves you fight here and there. You can tweak it if you use DLTCEP or Near Infinity. I use NI since DLTCEP seems to be incapable of editing anything when using Windows Vista/7/8. Both are pretty user-friendly.

The resistances from the tokens are indeed unlocked; items and spells can increase it. For the SCS version, the bonuses are:
-Level 1: Lesser Werewolf Token
1d6, +1 enchantment, 1 attack per round, haste, and a Strength value and maybe some resistances I don't remember (I think 18 Strength and 10 magic resistance).
-Level 7: Werewolf Token
1d6, +2 enchantment, 1 APR, haste, 19 STR, 20 magic resistance
-Level 13: Greater Werewolf Token
1d6, +3 enchantment, 2 APR, haste, 21 STR, 40 MR, 50% resistance to fire, cold, electricity, and acid, and 1 HP regeneration per second.

Your AC is also set very low in each form, generally better than a fighter in full armor.

APR seems quite low??

sparrow13x

1d6 seems pretty weak, that's less damage than your average non-magical longsword. 1apr is not particularly impressive either, considering that the Werewolf form is supposed to be a melee-viable Druid. If the Werewolf forms have innate haste shouldn't it increase their APR or does it just apply to movement speed?

Honestly based on what you shared SCS doesn't really seem to fix the problems that the vanilla Werewolf had, namely piddling damage compared to the weapons other characters can wield and the inability to hit certain creatures at all.

The BG2 Tweaks one, for example, has everything an enemy werewolf would have, in addition to being able to cast spells while transformed. Plus it apparently gave druids Righteous Magic for some reason so that could help. Honestly it seems like it will be overpowered in SoA but the SCS version seems like it will be fairly underpowered for most of the series unless it can increase it's damage and APR.

semiticgoddess

Haste does increase APR here. So the Greater Werewolf has 3 APR. And I think the enchantment bonus applies to damage, so it should be 1d6+3, +9 from STR.

The SCS Shapeshifter isn't meant to deal lots of melee damage. It's a tank with spell casting. It's a mistake to gauge the kit's power by the standard of melee damage output, when the Shapeshifter is a spellcasting class.

Yannir

I have to agree with @semiticgod , spellcasting while transformed to GWW is pretty powerful with that regen and AC. Keep in mind that druids can cast Iron Skins besides other cool stuff, and are offensively superior spellcasters when compared to clerics. Big melee damage isn't the deal with these forms.

Btw, can you use the forms at will, or are they usable once a day?

sparrow13x

As far as I know you only need to use the form once to get the Werewolf claw token, and then you can equip it at will whenever you want. At least that's how it is with the BG2 Tweaks one.

As long as the forms get 2/3 APR then I might give the SCS version a shot because casting while shapeshifted is crazy overpowered.

Does the GWW still get 25 con too?

Wowo

@yannir Werewolf form just requires equipping the token so it's useable as often as you like (and doesn't even take an action).

@semiticgod that makes sense that it's a tank rather than a damage dealer

sparrow13x

I never really thought about it like that but it's probably because I've always had an aversion to caster-types in every RPG I've ever played. Cast spells, soften up the enemies and then pop into werewolf when you're either taking damage or ready to finish them off with your fists(claws?).

Should be a new perspective so I'm adjusting my mods now. I think I'm going to keep the "Weapon Styles for All" component installed so I can get more pips in two weapon style because I think DWing the claw with Belm could be fun but otherwise it'll be a normal run.

sparrow13x

So I just got all of my mods tidied up and the SCS Werewolf is definitely a bit weaker offensively than the Tweaks one. In fact it's thac0 is 5 worse, 13 instead of 8. The claws do 1d8 instead of 1d12 so my damage is 8-15 instead of 9-18. And it doesn't seem to set my constitution anymore which could be an issue later in the game.

There are a few areas where it is better though - namely it's AC, which is 1 better, and APR which is 3 with the innate Haste buff. Plus being hasted is super boss and means that I can put off the planar prison quest until I'm a bit more powerful.

Not being a melee juggernaut is going to take some getting used to but this seems like it could be a refreshing change of pace. I'm just interested in seeing what the GWW's stats look like, and whether he still receives the constitution bonus.

Wowo

Does Shapeshifter still receive the Shapechange HLAs with these mods? That always seemed wrong to me.

semiticgoddess

SCS Shapeshifters don't get the Shapechange HLA. It doesn't really fit the kit, I don't think, since the original kit description said a Shapeshifter focused on a single form, hence the inability to shapeshift into a bear or wolf.

Wowo

semiticgod said:

SCS Shapeshifters don't get the Shapechange HLA. It doesn't really fit the kit, I don't think, since the original kit description said a Shapeshifter focused on a single form, hence the inability to shapeshift into a bear or wolf.

Well if they take HLAs away then they should replace them with something more appropriate (is my point).

sparrow13x

Yeah the Shadowdancer treatment would be cool but I don't know what it could have been. A short duration enrage for the Werewolf form maybe?

Hard to speculate on what could have been.

Wowo

sparrow13x said:

Yeah the Shadowdancer treatment would be cool but I don't know what it could have been. A short duration enrage for the Werewolf form maybe?

Hard to speculate on what could have been.

Epic werewolf form, Spell casting in greater werewolf form, Hardiness, Critical Strike.

Why is there no ability to turn another creature into a werewolf too?

demon9675

I know mods somewhat address the shapeshifter problem, but in vanilla shapeshifters are just so awful that you'd think BeamDog would do, like, SOMETHING about it (I'm an advocate of balance changes to the vanilla game and not just relying on mods).

An extremely simple solution would be to add a new "alpha werewolf" form that can be accessed at some higher level than greater werewolf - preferably just about when a player gets to ToB. It could have +4 claws, more apr, better stats (including constitution), higher resistances, etc.

Then there's the other simple solution of making werewolves equivalent to their npc counterparts, like the Gibberlings tweakpack does. Or both. Or better HLAs, like some folks have been talking about here (as a side note, the elemental transformation HLAs aren't particularly good either: bad AC and THAC0, bad apr, average damage, and no additional hp).

Certainly some other pure classes could use buffs (including other Druids), but Shapeshifter has always stood out to me as being the one truly awful class. And shapeshifting in general is pretty crappy, although I've read that Avenger's spider form is OK. If shapeshifting was more useful, Druids would get a second look overall - they'd finally have a substantial difference from Clerics.

Maybe I'm more obsessed with balance and build diversity than most people, but that's my two cents anyway!

semiticgoddess

Shapeshifters are pretty effective even in vanilla. They make excellent tanks at every stage of the saga, and all they lose is leather armor. And as druids, they do get some wildly overpowered spells.

sparrow13x

While the Werewolf form is very tanky in ToB many enemies will have thac0's so low that they can hit you almost any time regardless of your AC (Fire Giants come to mind, they hit like trucks), in which case you're somewhat less effective than if you were just in your base form casting spells. So far in my solo run I've been able to get off one or possibly two spells before my iron skins are stripped, after which I'm blindly slashing at my enemies in WW form and hoping I don't fail a saving through against hold or whatnot.

I kinda see this problem as negating the positives of the class and emphasizing the negatives. Personally I would gladly trade a spell per level or something like that for a more effective Werewolf form.

Korbu

demon9675 said:

An extremely simple solution would be to add a new "alpha werewolf" form that can be accessed at some higher level than greater werewolf - preferably just about when a player gets to ToB. It could have +4 claws, more apr, better stats (including constitution), higher resistances, etc.

That would be a Loup Garou form.

Skatan

Dual classing a vanilla fighter into a druid and then EEkeeper the kit shapeshifter to the druid can get very OP with the tweak's version of werewolf form. 3 pips in dual weild, token + Belm + spell casting for most enemies. Dual weilding scimitars when needing +4-5 weapons to deal damage etc.

I've played around with it and it's amusing (in a way) but very, very strong. Not much more so than a regular F->M or F->C (and their different kitted variants) though.

Nuin

Shapeshifters definitely need a better ToB-counterpart form, considering how even a vanilla druid can outdamage a Shapeshifter by using Energy Blades, but druids as a whole are fine as they are.
If you're struggling then it's either because you're not using your spells right, or you're fighting the wrong battles. Druids excel at dealing with humanoids and fighting outdoors. Once you have the levels, you can start picking fights with anything else.

The key to excelling as a mid game druid is Call Woodland Beings, easily one of the most powerful spells in the game at the time you get it. It becomes significantly less useful as you approach end game, but using this spell (and a few others like Entangle) you should be able to take down humanoid groups like Mencar Pebblecrusher and co. easily. That should accelerate your progress (better gear, more levels) and then everything just kind of snowballs from there as you get the Fire Elementals, Insect Plague, Ironskins, Creeping Doom, Nature's Beauty, etc. Everyone is OP late game, including the druid. Since you're doing a solo SCS challenge, you should really take the time to understand just how powerful (and different) druid spells are and figure the late game part out yourself.

In end game all druids amount to the same thing - a powerful spellcaster. You won't be casting Timestops, sure, but no save blindness can be just as cheesy. And if you played your cards right then your journey to late game should have been a LOT smoother than a wizard's.
A more elegant solution to the Shapeshifter problem imo would be to grant Shapeshifters an HLA that allows them to cast spells while in their (possibly improved) Greater Werewolf Form. And why not? There ARE werewolf spellcasters.