Shadowdancer/mage

DullSkullTheSecond

Now I may have cheated a tiny tiny bit by adding a kit to a multiclass(EE keepered a mage/thief to a shadowdancer/mage) but dual classing it would probably be way more powerful anyway so I'm unsure what to call it, hate dual classing though. But the thing is that this combination is probably the strongest thing I have ever played, my not so perfect berserker->mage don't even stand a chance so far. This thing is a god.

I can interrupt enemy spellcasting by stealthing while in line of sight, safely cast spell after spell by simply breaking stealth and re-entering after casting my spell. I will later on be able to use vhailor's helm with use any item and spend expensive projectiles(arrows of detonation/dispell/biting) for free along with wands. I can shadowstep to avoid both traps and enemy aoe spells. I can backstab and I will have full access to arcane spells with all the possible stupidly good mage/thief uses. I can stealth past anything I don't want to fight, I can disarm traps and unlock chests for xp along with scribing. I will have access to shadowdancer HLA that will basicly be another *free* simulacrum. I have higher saves and as an elf I'm pretty much immune to charm and sleep effects. I could without problem go on about how I can tailor this combination to pretty much be immune to anything with use any item and how ridiculously powerful it can become and its insane solo potential but I think this brick of text is enough. The only "bad" is the required attributes.

So to my question, how in ever is this not considered the absolute best combination in the game? So far I can't see how it would be inferior to anything available?

Ammar

If you are willing to cheese like that, the Staff of the Magi basically does the same for you. The helm is a very minor bonus since it emulates a mage spell anyway. The saving point bonus is small and being an elf has nothing to do with being a shadowdancer.

The combination is also not so useful on the late game fights due to immunity to backstabs. It will manage sure, but not as effectively as a fighter mage combo with a much larger damage output.

Due to kitted mage multiclasses falsely getting the specialist bonus spell, I personally consider it too cheesy anyway.

DullSkullTheSecond

Ammar said:

If you are willing to cheese like that, the Staff of the Magi basically does the same for you. The helm is a very minor bonus since it emulates a mage spell anyway. The saving point bonus is small and being an elf has nothing to do with being a shadowdancer.

The combination is also not so useful on the late game fights due to immunity to backstabs. It will manage sure, but not as effectively as a fighter mage combo with a much larger damage output.

Due to kitted mage multiclasses falsely getting the specialist bonus spell, I personally consider it too cheesy anyway.

I can free up a lot spell slots with the shadowdancer specials + use any item. Carsomyr, Ir'revrykal, Tunic of Blindeye, Wonderous Gloves, priest scrolls/wands(not that amazing but still)among other much cheesier options are usable. And with that many possible immunities and spells per level who cares damage output? And if you want more raw damage you can always use tensers transformation and hack away with carsomyr or bbd. And as you said staff of magi could replace stealth so plain mage/thief still has most of the mentioned pros. And as I said this is way better as a dual class anyway.

DullSkullTheSecond

Also did I mention traps?

Dragonspear

EEKeeper, down with humans, up with the multiclass kits

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Dragonspear said:

EEKeeper, down with humans, up with the multiclass kits

My Halfling Cleric/Wild Mage agrees (as well as my Elven Kensai/Mage "Bladesinger").

lunar

Umm, my memory is a bit fuzzy but don't shadowdancers lose the ability of trap setting?

Also, does a keepered multi shadowdancer/mage get a hla selection page with shadowdancer unique hlas+mage ones OR just regular thief/mage hlas? I ain't sure if there is a page with special shadow dancer hlas and mage hlas combined?

Skarose

@lunar I'm pretty sure they would get Mage/Thief HLAs, so this would allow for spike traps, which would cover damage/ power output when backstabbing loses it's edge in TOB.

I think EEKeeped Shadow Dancer multiclass can also set traps. So it is quite powerful but also total cheese. It is an EEKeeper character class, so to me it's like saying hey I EEKeeped my PC with +25 to hit and +25 damage and -25 Initiative, hey why doesn't everyone notice what a powerful build this is?

To be fair, I have the Kit Tomes Mod, but whenever I have given a kit to a multiclass I regret it, because it just doesn't seem right to me. (I use the kit tomes mainly for NPCs Faldorn =avenger, Ajantis= Inquisitor or Cavalier, Kivan =Stalker or Archer, Shar Teel =berserker, Safana=Assassin. Converting some of the NPCs seems ok with me because they were created for BG1 before there were kits and some of those NPCs just always seemed like they were made to be kitted!

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DullSkullTheSecond

@subtledoctor could just as well have dual classed that's why I'm hesitant to call the combination cheating.

Ammar

@DullSkullTheSecond

Dual-classes have significant disadvantages.

1. There is a still unfixed bug, so that a a multiclassed mage with a (non-mage) kit gets the specialist bonus spell per level. This is not the case for dual-classed characters.
2. You pay for dual-classing with a significant amount of time played where you do not have access to both classes.
3. You will not get access to both classes HLA unless you dual really, really late.


So giving them kits is cheating, not that anyone really cares in a single-player RPG. But still what would you think of a game review or walkthrough that stats by recommended you cheat?

BTW regardless of what you think multiclassing is superior to dual-classing anyway. Multiclass starts stronger, then there is a short window in which the dual-class can be stronger, and finally the multiclass wins again.

Anyway, it is still weaker than a fighter/mage And damage output matters very much for fast regenerating enemies.

DullSkullTheSecond

@Ammar Dual class don't get both classes HLA? Ok then this is cheating. Never mind this then

semiticgoddess

It's not cheating. It's modding.

Ammar

semiticgod said:

It's not cheating. It's modding.

Modding is a technique. Cheating is a result. Having a kit in a multiclass can be achieved both by savegame editing and modding. That should make the distinction clear. Otherwise a trap remove mod would not be cheating as well.

DullSkullTheSecond said:

@Ammar Dual class don't get both classes HLA? Ok then this is cheating. Never mind this then

It can be achieved if you get both classes to 3 mio xp. But that has a significant price on its own.

Skatan

I agree that thief(kit)/mage is a very, very powerful combo. I personally prefer assassin/mage over sd/mage, but YMMV. The 3x BS with a SD makes BS less effective and not really a major part of the strategy for that char. The instant stealth to break line of sight for spells, however, is good but any T/M can abuse mislead/BS and other variants and be very successfull. Anyone can use vhailors and misuse depleteble ammo, wands, scroll etc, so that's not for a SD/mage only.

I will not argue over F/M vs T/M, since versatility vs avg. DPS is difficult to weigh against eachother (IMHO). If it were IWD, I'd say F/M, but in BG it's a whole other story ofc.

My personal view on T/M (and kitted versions) is that it's versatility makes NPC choice's secondary and you can really pick anyone you like (a cleric is always nice though). There's a reason why Jan is considered one of the "best" NPC's and he's still a legal MC.