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[MOD] -Might and Guile- a tweak mod and kit pack for warriors and rogues.

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  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    Hi subtledoctor,

    I know you have more then enough work to do. Big fan of Feats by the way.

    If I can spark you interest and you find some time I have new idea for Duskbaldes and Hexblades.
    (Just love these classes, and I know there is a Duskblade mod but this would be different)
    Not sure if this is the right mod, but they are more Warriors than Wizards and you have a Bladedancer kit already (I just can't stand playing a Elf, but that is my problem) ;)
    (maybe Tome & Blood would be the place?).

    So to the idea:
    How about to make them Multiclass Kits for Fighter/Mages?
    Would it be possible to give them there own Spell-list? (not sure what is possible with the new 2.X engine)

    Advantages:
    - Armored Casting
    - Specific Spell-list (maybe add some cleric spells for example Doom for Hexblade)

    Disadvantage
    - reduced casting speed
    - reduced spell slots
    - Limited Spell selection

    I think the Hexblade would be like a Fighter/Enchanter and the Duskblade like a Fighter/evoker?

    Hope you like the idea. Thanks for doing all this great modding ;)

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Darkersun said:

    So to the idea:
    How about to make them Multiclass Kits for Fighter/Mages?
    Would it be possible to give them there own Spell-list? (not sure what is possible with the new 2.X engine)

    [snip]

    I think the Hexblade would be like a Fighter/Enchanter and the Duskblade like a Fighter/evoker?

    I know this is possible in the Infinity Engine, but is it possible to make a kit act if it's a base class/2nd class kit combo? I suppose you could just take all the Enchanter spells, make copies of them and rename said copies (SPCLxxx.spl), and then assign those in the Hexblade CLAB. And then do the same for Duskblade.

    Also, I would argue that since these classes would have armored ARCANE casting, they should not be able to acquire any spells like "Armor" or "Stoneskin" or "Spirit Armor". These classes are not bards, where they have only a few ("rare") armors available to them. They can cast in heavy armor all the time, like a cleric -- but have the melee abilities of a fighter/mage.


    That said...this may be an idea for a different mod.

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  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Hexblades are basically analogous to 3E paladins in terms of HOW they function. The difference is, Hexblade spells debuff enemies, whereas Paladin spells buff themselves or allies. So, there's auras and a limted spell table. It's an alternate class in...I think it was 3E?...Anyway, here's the SRD entry: http://alcyius.com/USRD/srd/classes/baseCwar/hexblade.html
    In practical terms, making it work for 2E would probably means giving them cleric debuff spells.

    Duskblade is basically fighter/mage as a single class. It uses arcane spells to augment its weapon attacks. Their spellcasting functions similar to a sorcerer's. Their weakness (at least in 3.5E) was that wearing armor actually interferes with their spellcasting ability. http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/cwc/20060905a
    The issue is, in order to differentiate them from fighter/mage, you would need to limit their spell list. And that's a pain.

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  • Swifty_MageeSwifty_Magee Member Posts: 222
    There's already been a Duskblade mod that was created years ago and uploaded to the forums: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36825/mod-duskblade-kit-v1-1-for-iwd-ee.

    I haven't used it in a long time, but I remember liking the mod well enough. Personally though, if I'm going for a fighter/mage through mods, I now install Tome and Blood and choose the Magus kit. Duskblade had potential, though.

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636

    There's already been a Duskblade mod that was created years ago and uploaded to the forums: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36825/mod-duskblade-kit-v1-1-for-iwd-ee.

    Does that even work in 2.0 anymore? I kind of doubt it.

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited May 2016
    Thanks for the feedback :). I understand that making more kits is no priority.
    Also the F&P Hex Mystic - Fighter/ Hex Mystic sounds very good to me ;)

    There's already been a Duskblade mod that was created years ago and uploaded to the forums: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36825/mod-duskblade-kit-v1-1-for-iwd-ee.

    I know this Kit, I like it but it has some flaws for my own taste:
    - The 13% EXP penalty just feels wrong to me, also no other Kit uses a penalty.
    - No Range weapons
    - Spells as innates -> This is not bad, but you cannot use a weapon like Dak'kon's Zerth Blade to get a bonus. It would be a perfect match. Also no other spell boosting items work.

    I love the arcane channeling - so great to load up the sword with Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch etc., makes them really worth.

    Also, maybe I used the class names without context.
    These classes are a little bit like arcane specialized Paladins.
    They don't need to fallow a codex or god, and don't need to be Lawful Good
    Hexblade is neutral or evil (Any nongood).
    Duskbalde has no preset Alignment.
    Both have a limited spell-table (which seems to be not a good idea for BG engine)
    Both have some unique features:
    Duskblade -> Arcane Channeling (deliver touch spells through the weapon)
    Hexblade -> Curse and weaken enemy's, to overwhelm them in melee combat.

    But I will be patient and maybe after a release of F&P I see a Hex Mystic ;)
    If not I will enjoy the other options well enough.

    Thanks again subtledoctor for taking time to discuss my request (also rapsam2003 & Swifty_Magee).

    Edit: Just had an idea to emulate an Hexblade, will make an Enchanter -> dual class to Fighter. If the Enchanter is level 7, I can cast up to 4 level spells and use items that work to improve my spell-casting. Its not quite the same and missing the unique ability's. But it will do well enough ;)

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Darkersun said:

    I know this Kit, I like it but it has some flaws for my own taste:
    - The 13% EXP penalty just feels wrong to me, also no other Kit uses a penalty.

    I don't know why the creator did this...
    Darkersun said:

    - No Range weapons

    Don't know why the creator did this either. I should at least be able to throw darts or throwing knives as a "melee only" class. How hard is it to throw a dart or a knife, for someone who swings a sword around all day?!
    Darkersun said:

    - Spells as innates -> This is not bad, but you cannot use a weapon like Dak'kon's Zerth Blade to get a bonus. It would be a perfect match. Also no other spell boosting items work.

    The problem is that the only way to limit a spell selection list is either choose a school (which only limits you to not learning spells of the opposing school) OR to give spells via innates. So, you either accept the penalty of no spell boosts. Or you give access to all spells...in which case, you've created a bard variant.
    Darkersun said:

    I love the arcane channeling - so great to load up the sword with Chill Touch, Ghoul Touch etc., makes them really worth.

    It really is a nice feature.
    Darkersun said:

    Also, maybe I used the class names without context.
    These classes are a little bit like arcane specialized Paladins.
    They don't need to fallow a codex or god, and don't need to be Lawful Good
    Hexblade is neutral or evil (Any nongood).
    Duskbalde has no preset Alignment.
    Both have a limited spell-table (which seems to be not a good idea for BG engine)
    Both have some unique features:
    Duskblade -> Arcane Channeling (deliver touch spells through the weapon)
    Hexblade -> Curse and weaken enemy's, to overwhelm them in melee combat.

    Yup.
    Darkersun said:

    Thanks again subtledoctor for taking time to discuss my request (also rapsam2003 & Swifty_Magee).

    Edit: Just had an idea to emulate an Hexblade, will make an Enchanter -> dual class to Fighter. If the Enchanter is level 7, I can cast up to 4 level spells and use items that work to improve my spell-casting. Its not quite the same and missing the unique ability's. But it will do well enough ;)

    Yup. If you pick spells that debuff/disable enemies, you basically have the spirit of the Hexblade.

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    Darkersun
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited May 2016
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    Post edited by [Deleted User] on
    rapsam2003
  • kensaikensai Member Posts: 228
    edited May 2016


    I don't know why the creator did this...

    Balancing issue. Compare duskblade with true fighter and you'll understand.
    Don't know a more elegant way at that moment.


    Don't know why the creator did this either. I should at least be able to throw darts or throwing knives as a "melee only" class. How hard is it to throw a dart or a knife, for someone who swings a sword around all day?!

    Because that way you can "channel" spells through dart and throwing knives. Imagine a throwing axe with chanelled high level Shocking Grasp. A Dispelling Touch on dart, anyone?


    The problem is that the only way to limit a spell selection list is either choose a school (which only limits you to not learning spells of the opposing school) OR to give spells via innates. So, you either accept the penalty of no spell boosts. Or you give access to all spells...in which case, you've created a bard variant.

    Yes. Now I want to search a way to make a f\m limited to spells (disable learning from scrolls?), limited to spell level (to lvl 6 spells I think) with specific spells already memorised.

    There's already been a Duskblade mod that was created years ago and uploaded to the forums: https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/36825/mod-duskblade-kit-v1-1-for-iwd-ee.

    Does that even work in 2.0 anymore? I kind of doubt it.
    Works on BG1 2.0, but not on SOD at the moment.

    ineth
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited May 2016
    @kensai I hope you didn't get me wrong I really like your mod and appreciate the work.
    I was just hoping that, with the engine improvements, something could be done to make this a real spellcaster from the system point of view.
    kensai said:


    Works on BG1 2.0, but not on SOD at the moment.


    Edit: Also any chance you update your kits for SoD use?



    Hope that this is not getting to off topic for you subtledoctor. Maybe we should move the Duskbalde discussion to another thread.




    kensai
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    kensaiDarkersun
  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    Ok, so now that we back on topic some feedback and brainstorming on the nice new feat feature :)
    I had no time to test them ingame, but I had some time to read them.

    What I see in the readme could make the Rouge may favorite class. The ability's and flexibility sounds amazing. I wish AD&D had feats to begin with.

    Any chance we could get some Fighter kits specific feats? I think the way its done with Rogue Feats would also fit the Fighter class and kits very well (freedom of selection for basic Fighter, specific list for kits).
    If I understand correctly, only Basic Fighters get feats, but for example some option for the Wizard Slayer would be nice (I always liked the concept, but the Kit itself was kinda boring).
    I know, that the feats for Fighter are intended to give basic fighters some interesting points so Kits are not always picked, but having some active ability's on the WizSlay would be awesome.
    (I took the WizSlay as an example, because I like the kit idea very much, but also the Kensai and Berseker and even the Barbarian would really improve with some more options)

    Is this component Component 275: Revised Shadowdancer obsolete now or an requirment for Rogue Feats?

    How does the Feats interact with NPC and characters that don't star with level 1?
    For example, if I meet Minsc and he is level 3 can I still choose his level 2 feat?

    How will you own kits interact with Rouge feets for example:
    Component 420: Add the SCOUT thief kit, and revise the Swashbuckler?


    Need to find some time to test this awesome stuff, thanks again subtledoctor :)

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    edited May 2016
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  • RioghalRioghal Member Posts: 1
    edited May 2016
    Hey, just wanted to thank you for an an excellent mod! Been running a Corsair through the game and it's been incredibly fun. Really interesting twist on the Fighter. Also been enjoying my Sniper but haven't gotten him as far along in the game.

    One thing I have been curious about are the multi-class kits. I have been searching around to see if I could locate the items/totems for my next run through where I was going to play a fighter/mage but I can't seem to find anything for the Bladesinger. Maybe I'm missing something obvious. Looked through the read-me but I'm not seeing any hints about where the item might be found. Any chance I could get a hint so I can try that kit out?

    Thanks!

  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016
    Rioghal said:

    I have been searching around to see if I could locate the items/totems for my next run through where I was going to play a fighter/mage but I can't seem to find anything for the Bladesinger.

    If we're talking BG1, the tome is at the Priest in Candlekeep. If we're talking BG2, I think it's at Ribald's. Note that, iirc, you have to be an elf to actually use the item.

    [Deleted User]
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  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited May 2016



    Not anytime soon, mostly because I don't have much free time right now. I hear what you're saying; but trueclass fighters need this more than the kits do. You can always do something like install the Wizard Slayer Rebalancing mod (which is 100% compatible with this!)

    Great I like Wizard Slayer Rebalancing, but having feats some day would be even more awesome ;)



    It is folded in automatically. If you install feats, it will automatically install the Revised Shadowdancer and you won't even see it as its own component. Sorry: you can't use feats and Hide in Plain Sight together. :(

    Maybe you got me wrong, I like Revised Shadowdancer much more than Hips. So thats good new for me.



    I'm really getting into testing this stuff now, in an SoD 2.2 game. Warrior feats seem to work great for NPCs: I used NPC_EE to change Minsc into a fighter, and he starts at level 7 with three "choose a feat" abilities. Khalid gets them as well.

    Unfortunately, Safana does not get the proper Rogue Feats, and I don't know why. I'll probably need to patch NPCs directly for those. It will be there in an update soon.

    Thanks for the feddback.



    The Scout component will be skipped if you install the Rogue Feats. It's too much work to support it, for a vague concept of "part swashy, part bounty hunter." The feats system should give you the flexibility to create something like that on your own, you don't need an extra kit for it.

    Good to know.


    If I find the time I will help testing, but the next 2 weeks RL will take its toll (work, work). I want to finaly play SoD.
    Feats for Corsair and Stalker sounds great.

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    mashedtaters
  • CahirCahir Member, Moderator, Translator (NDA) Posts: 2,645
    Sigh, I keep thinking my to-do list is finished, but there's always more...
    C'mon @subtledoctor admit it, you LOVE this :D

  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    edited May 2016
    @subtledoctor
    I did some small testing (only M&G [ 2.5.6] installed, SoD 2.2.66.0, English). It seems that Shadowdancer feats don't work correctly.
    I get Grease Jar and 3 feats to select. The text of the feat if I right click says: "Assassin..." and has the description of the vanilla assassin kit. When I select the feat I get a blank icon bar and cannot select any ability (e.g. shadow pool etc.)
    Somke bomb is also missing.

    Warrior feats for Khalid seem to work great.
    Normal Thief class also gets it feats correctly assigned.

    Edit: Starting in SoD or BG1 has the same effect (added some exp in EE Keeper to test it).

    Edit 2: Did some additional testing with NPC_EE. When I added the Shadowdancer as a kit with the "select kit ability" I got Grease Jar and Smoke bomb correctly and I could select feats as intended, but "Shadow Pool" was still missing?

    Edit 3: Did some test with the Hunter (great kit btw): Can select feats fine. Did some test with the new traps. I can only place the dart trap. The others (Fire, web and spike so far) did get a nice animation and sound, but there is no trap placed (text say it was successfully placed). Maybe I'm doing something wrong?

    Hope this helps in any way (WeiDu log attached).

    I love the option that the feats offer, makes Thief & Thief Kits may favorite class. I hope its an easy fix.

    Post edited by Darkersun on
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  • DarkersunDarkersun Member Posts: 398
    Will test it as soon as I find some time. Happy to help :)

    New idea now that you made Rouge Feats:

    New Thief Kit: Alchemist

    Advantage:
    - Starts with 3 feats: Smoke Bomb + Grease Jar; Brew Potions; Flaming Weapon
    - Can learn: Poison Weapon (Toxin)
    - Poison Weapon (Paralytic)
    - Can get additional uses per day for these feats
    Maybe:
    - New feat: Craft Explosives (Non magical "Melf's Minute Meteor")
    - New feat: Pyromaniac Alchemy (Oil of Fiery Burning, Potion of Explosions, Oil of Fiery Burning)
    - New feat: Brew Healing potions?
    - New feat: Mutagen (permanent resistance bonus or something)
    - New feat: Transformation Potion? (Shapechange to Fleshgolem)?
    - HLA: Advanced Brewing
    (High level Potions: Potion of Storm Giant Strength,Potion of Superior Healing, Potion of Magic Shielding etc.)

    Disadvantage
    - backstabbing always x1 (like swashi)
    - only 15 points per level for thief skills

    Just some brainstorming.
    But with the feats allready in place, I think an Alchemist would be a great addition.

  • DanacmDanacm Member Posts: 854
    I like this warrior feat system, and i think it would be great to create a warblade kit from tome of battle based on this feat system. U can choose stances and maneuvers from each proper level, it would be great.

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    edited May 2016
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  • rapsam2003rapsam2003 Member Posts: 1,636
    edited May 2016

    Danacm said:

    I like this warrior feat system, and i think it would be great to create a warblade kit from tome of battle based on this feat system.

    I don't know what that is, but if you throw out ideas for feats, I could see about folding them into the system.
    A warblade is an optional class from 3.5E. It basically fills the same role as a fighter, imho. They don't get to wear heavy armor though, and they have "maneuvers" and "stances" as their class abilities. A warblade is basically a melee tactics specialist. Honestly, I think there's way too many parallels with fighters to bother with them. A good melee fighter can do a lot of the same stuff as a warblade.
    http://archive.wizards.com/default.asp?x=dnd/ex/20060802a&page=2


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