What I'm talking about here is definitely a major departure from 2E-style bards, replacing them with a more holistic idea of the class. (And allowing them to be more roguish, in the process.)
Well, that's up to you. I don't know that you could say Bards were ever "roguish", except as a side effect of the "Jack of All Trades" stuff.
would it not be cooler to bring bards closer to the PnP implementation? I'm sure there's Infinity Engine limitations here, but can it be done?
I don't reall think so. It's all RP stuff. I mean someone could write a quest mod with a bunch of awesome dialogue options for bards, or something like that. But I don't do quest mods, I do tweak mods.
Your suggested bard changes are going to completely rework bards and change the entire way they are played.
This would very much be an option (stress on the word option) for people who want a different experience - different than "crappy fighter/mage with pickpocketing."
The idea would be to give them enough innate magical abilities to substitute for the wizard spells they get in vanilla. It wouldn't be the same, but if done right it would be similar.
I never understood, why Bards in D&D have spells. I know they are supposed to be jack of all trades. But to me just because somebody learns to sing he also has a nag for spells?
Well, originally the bard was something like a prestige class for fighter/mage/thieves... or fighter/thief/druids... or something like that. The 2E iteration was its own class, but with some of the same abilities. But it was very geared toward RP-focused advantages. Like, the Blade's special ability was to wave his swords in such an intimidating way that the enemy would run towards the group's fighter - who, unlike the Blade, could actually succeed in combat against the enemy.
I gather that 3E/D20/Pathfinder and later made bards more unique, with a whole "bardic" type of magic. I'm moving in this direction, giving bards access to particular magical abilities instead of Vancian arcane casting.
Most of the abilities I've thought of so far are party buffs or enemy debuffs. But I could expand it to more direct effects. @Grammarsalad has made some cool spells that would work, like Destructive Vibrations. And maybe @Demivrgvs would let me borrow a couple spells from SR, like Sound Burst and Great Shout.
If the issue is just the number of effects (only knowing 12 spells is definitely limiting) there are a few ways to increase that. The first would be allowing a new feat/song/spell every level, instead of every other level. So 22 spells instead of 12. The 2nd option would be to make each spell like Shadow Pool: you learn a single feat that lets you cast 4 or 5 different spells. If I can make 8 or 10 such groups of magic, then the bard could cast as many as ~40 different spells. (That's actually a lot. Somebody who plays bards, go check how many different spells your Blade has memorized. I'd guess maybe 20 or 30, max. (Yes of course it's a Blade because nobody plays trueclass bards.))
And different kits could mix and match subsets of bard spells with subsets of rogue feats and thief skills.
Missing a lot here, but if you want me to make some bard spells, just let me know and I'll get started ( after finishing up fnp though)
I totally get Music magic. Sing songs to inspire, curse or protect and attack with sound. That would give the Bards nice unique ability's without being a strange combo of Fighter/Mage.
Also not being able to provide the party with a boost and still be able to do something else sounds great. (Songs like Auras, that is great)
Would love to see the Bard change in this why. (still searching for some time to test you last release )
This would be a lot of work, but it could be cool. Question is, how cool? Would it be worth it?
This kind of system would, imho, make bards interesting and preserve their PnP flavor without sacrificing the Bard's spellcasting. Yes, they'd have a lot less spells, but with scolls and wands and bard-specific items (*cough* Bardic Chain *cough*), it wouldn't be an issue. I'd probably actually create a bard and use them.
Wow that defiantly would make me play a Bard as main character. If the second one is why easy than I would recommend it, you already work on so many projects. (which is great by the way) Both work in my opinion and make the Bard very unique.
I love the idea of making bard songs a permanent, optional, selectable effect that would allow them to sing and fight at the same time. It always bugged me that I had to waste a whole party member singing but otherwise doing nothing just to get a static bonus that can be accomplished by casting a cleric spell for one action. I mean seriously, there are plenty of spells that accomplish similar things as bardsong for one action that doesn't take the character out of the fight. Yes, there are certainly more powerful songs, but at 1st level that 6th attack is way more useful than dropping 5 attacks' thac0 to 19, and giving +1 to damage. When you get to a level where your character is casting those powerful songs, there are plenty of equivalent spells for similar effects that still only cost one action. And by the time you're casting those songs, enemies are doing enough damage and casting enough of their own powerful spells to make up for it. I like the bard concept, but I agree that they were implemented poorly in the infinity engine games. Almost any utility character can replace a bard for variety, because the only thing that set bards apart is bardsong, and that alone just doesn't make up for losing that 6th party slot during combat. And any redundant specialist character is a better investment than bardsong, imho. Their greatest strength is being able to switch back and forth between bardsong, spellcasting, and combat with relative ease. If you take away spellcasting, you would definitely have to give something back. I don't see the loss of the magic tab that big of a deal, especially when there are so many scrolls and wands out there. Making bardsong permanent would make up for this, imho. Plus, if possible, maybe they could use both cleric and Mage scrolls and wands.
I'm back from my weekend trip Very nice to see the Alchemist coming, and I will be happy to help with any testing if I can find the time. If compatibility with some specific mods is important to you, I can also set up a test installation. I think having a penalty to physical ability's, but able to transform into a brute is a very good option.
Permanent Non-Detection for Shadowdancers sounds fine. How about Summoning a Shadow? (Not my idea, but I liked the ability's from "Song and Silence" Shadowsdancer).
Great, now I really need to find some time for testing. Which mods would you recommend to use together with M&G in its current state? for example: RR without HLA and Thief&Kit changes?
SoB is involved insofar that it adds INT-based bonus spells, no? I think I even got corrupted tables if I did not install any Bard-spelltable changes, but just the SoB revised stats. (They didn't get added after a level up.) So, if I get this right, your M&G has a latent revised Bard spell table?
I installed Tweaks first, but did not install the Bard spell tables. I installed RR afterwards and installed those tables. Then I installed SoB & M&G, but that corrupts the Bard tables.
Corrupts, as in: the INT bonus doesn't get added, the table is all messed up, i.e. more 2nd lvl spells than 1st lvl spells, no new spells at level that you should get them, etc.
But I didn't know that that was the loadorder. Thanks for pointing that out!
I was actually wondering how the mod looks like and installed it and bard's table got messed up. I used console to check... for exaple when bard hits lvl 5 I have only two (or one perhaps... but I think it was two) 1st lvl spells and just 1 2nd lvl spell...
I had installed:
Modmerge, obviously BG1 NPC Project More Style for Mages Sirene NPC
and your mod. And that would be all. Not sure why it happens. BTW, the druidic bard (don't remember the name) never got his rodent swarm, he could summon rabbits (should it be infinite? The spell never disappeared, I could summon another one just after I finished summoning the previous one) and had some strange abillity... Pipe Pipping? Or something like that.
I suppose you'll need some time to fix the Meistersinger's rodent swarm, right? I am reinstalling the mod and took a look inside, but it's kinda hard to play with someone's else code. I'm just wondering if I should install the mod, or not. Hmm.
Comments
That would give the Bards nice unique ability's without being a strange combo of Fighter/Mage.
Also not being able to provide the party with a boost and still be able to do something else sounds great.
(Songs like Auras, that is great)
Would love to see the Bard change in this why.
(still searching for some time to test you last release
If the second one is why easy than I would recommend it, you already work on so many projects.
(which is great by the way)
Both work in my opinion and make the Bard very unique.
It always bugged me that I had to waste a whole party member singing but otherwise doing nothing just to get a static bonus that can be accomplished by casting a cleric spell for one action. I mean seriously, there are plenty of spells that accomplish similar things as bardsong for one action that doesn't take the character out of the fight. Yes, there are certainly more powerful songs, but at 1st level that 6th attack is way more useful than dropping 5 attacks' thac0 to 19, and giving +1 to damage. When you get to a level where your character is casting those powerful songs, there are plenty of equivalent spells for similar effects that still only cost one action. And by the time you're casting those songs, enemies are doing enough damage and casting enough of their own powerful spells to make up for it.
I like the bard concept, but I agree that they were implemented poorly in the infinity engine games. Almost any utility character can replace a bard for variety, because the only thing that set bards apart is bardsong, and that alone just doesn't make up for losing that 6th party slot during combat. And any redundant specialist character is a better investment than bardsong, imho.
Their greatest strength is being able to switch back and forth between bardsong, spellcasting, and combat with relative ease. If you take away spellcasting, you would definitely have to give something back.
I don't see the loss of the magic tab that big of a deal, especially when there are so many scrolls and wands out there. Making bardsong permanent would make up for this, imho.
Plus, if possible, maybe they could use both cleric and Mage scrolls and wands.
What levels do the stalker backstab increase, and to what maximum multiplier?
Very nice to see the Alchemist coming, and I will be happy to help with any testing if I can find the time.
If compatibility with some specific mods is important to you, I can also set up a test installation.
I think having a penalty to physical ability's, but able to transform into a brute is a very good option.
Permanent Non-Detection for Shadowdancers sounds fine. How about Summoning a Shadow? (Not my idea, but I liked the ability's from "Song and Silence" Shadowsdancer).
Which mods would you recommend to use together with M&G in its current state?
for example: RR without HLA and Thief&Kit changes?
I will try to post some testing feedback soon.
So, if I get this right, your M&G has a latent revised Bard spell table?
Thanks, btw, for the clarification!
But I didn't know that that was the loadorder. Thanks for pointing that out!
I had installed:
Modmerge, obviously
BG1 NPC Project
More Style for Mages
Sirene NPC
and your mod. And that would be all. Not sure why it happens.
BTW, the druidic bard (don't remember the name) never got his rodent swarm, he could summon rabbits (should it be infinite? The spell never disappeared, I could summon another one just after I finished summoning the previous one) and had some strange abillity... Pipe Pipping? Or something like that.