Yeah i tried it and i love it. Finally there is what the basic fighter needed, some abilities to micro it some remarks, i think some of the abilities like flurry may have longer duration, 3 or 4 rounds, its not a big bonus but it will be still in balance, the parry is not working for me i dont know why, its just jot grant me bonuses nor the apr penalty. But i think it will be fine to not penalise apr, never use the parry for minor defense bonuses, rather than the heroic resistance, parry is not great as its now. I thinking a pre whirlwind ability for lvl 7 or higher, maybe improved flurry to it set apr to 5 and grant -2 thaco for 1-2 rounds, maybe name of cleave. Heroic resolve is great, but what do you think about some ability - maybe iron will - to becme mini rage like, to immun to charm, fear, so just mind affecting or just gives save vs enchantment spells but +5, why not use the new opcodes heroic willpower is not bad but i dont think i use it, cause its minor save vs spell defense is not much on table, maybe grant 1 type of immunity for 2 secs. Knockdown is good as it, knockback too. Cutting blow, tempo, disrupt is nice abilities, tempo may will be weakening strike or smthing more attacker style name and red icon.
I like ur mods, and this feat system is great !
Edit: its more work, but with new portrait mini icon opportunities in last patches may the abilities have mini buff icons, and dont need to suck wiith states.bam.
Edit2: and what i forgot, you can strongering some feats thats only avaliable at higher levels or just create low level feats, and higher level feats egz: lvl 12 and above.
Its all optional. Blackguard, shadowdancer even sorcerer is 3e material.
Feats have NOT been brought in, for the most part. If I understand correctly, the reason @subtledoctor is doing the feats is bring the kits/classes that need it, in line with the other classes/kits.
@rapsam2003 I hear what you're saying about balance and I very much share your viewpoint in that regard. That's why I've coded the warrior feats to only be given to trueclass (unkitted) fighters and rangers... and only to single-class characters. This finally allows a basic fighter and thief to be as interesting as a kitted character, without making multiclass characters even more powerful than they already are.
Exactly! It's to boost what needs it AND not boost what doesn't it.
@Darkersun: fantastic idea. And nicely balanced and not that difficult to implement. With the code I just created getting rogue feats to work with non-rogues (Corsair and Stalker) and mod-added kits (revised Shadowdancer), it is now actually pretty simple to add new kits with new custom feat lists: - make the new feats - make wizard spells granting the new feats - make a spell granting those wizard spells and an .EFF targeting the new kit - update the 12 feat-choice abilities to include that new .EFF
This system is so great. So many possibility I tried testing the Corsair (had not much time sadly) with the latest mod version (2.5.7). When I selected a feat innate, only a empty bar appeared (similar to the Shadowdancer problem I had) The test was done in The Black Pit, could this be part of the issue?
An alchemist is a nice idea. I think I need to revise the basic 'Brew Potions' ability anyway. It should be pretty low-powered. Ideally with 5-6 potions: - Potion of Strength - Potion of Healing - Antidote - Fire Resistance (?) - Cold Resistance (?) - IWD Flaming Oil - IR only: Potion of Cure Disease
I like the list. Is it possible to make feats that change or improve other feats? For example: Double Brewing - When using Brew Potions, Advanced Brew Potions you get an extra potion.
Then the Alchemist could also have an 'Advanced Brew Potions' feat: - Potion of Regeneration - Oil of Speed - Potion of Stone Form - Potion of Mind Focusing - Potion of Extra Healing - Oil of Fiery Burning - IR only: Potion of Seeing
Sounds good to me. But if you get brew potion at level 1, and this at level 4 (1 feat all 3 level? or 2 level?) it would be very power full. That would be a fireball (Oil of Fiery Burning) one level lower than a Wizard can cast them. I think getting it at level 6 should be fine. Maybe the feat requirement would be 2 other feats: Brew Potions (level 1) -> Flaming Weapon (level 3) -> Advanced Brew Potions (level 5)
Then I would need to revise the Alchemy HLA (maybe just use the Advanced Brewing above for other thief kits) and give Alchemists a superior version: - Potion of Giant Strength - Potion of Power (usable by thieves) - Potion of Magic Shielding - Potion of Clarity - Potion of Freedom - Potion of Superior Healing - Potion of Fire Breath
The only issue with changing the Alchemy HLA is that it might mess up, or be messed up by, Rogue Rebalancing and Refinements. (Although, I suppose it's okay because M&G should be installed after RR, and I'm maintaining Refinements so I can add a safety check there. Anyway I'm still wrapping my head around what those mods do to Rogue HLAs and how they can be made to all work together.)
Compatibility is always a fair point. And the stuff from RR and Refinements is to good to not use it So if it is possible, than it would be great to have it. Maybe as an easy option for now, you could make the HLA components optional, so its possible to choose what HLA you want to use.
So here is an updated framework idea for the Alchemist:
Disadvantages: - Gets only 20 points per level (as any Thief kit in your mod) - Backstab multi stays x1 (can only increased one time by taking a feat) - Limited feat list (Only Traps, Posions, Use Wands, Use Scrolls, +1 Backstab)
I think the Alchemist is very focused on Brewing things up, so he has a determined path till level 9. And his feat selection is limited.
Did some more test. Created a new Corsair: SoD -> Start in BG1: Gave 2000 exp with EE Keeper (1.0.3.5) Leveld up and added another 2000 to get to level 3. Got feat selection innate. Select it -> emtpy Bar
SoD -> Start in SoD: Same issue, 3 feat selection icons - when selected an empty bar appears. I will try a reinstall. Maybe I broke something. (But it was a clean test installation with M&G only after patching SoD 2.2.66.0)
Cant wait for 2.6 this stuff is so great. But also you should have some time to enjoy playing the game
Edit: Also I hope it has no impact. I'm playing on Windows 7.
So did a short test after cleaning SOD and run repair. Same issue in SoD. I get no feats to select for the Corsair. I did some more tests. With 2.5.7, the Thief and all Kits also gets an empty bar, I cannot choose any feats. This was working in the version before. Very strange.
On the got side, I was able to place the Spike Trap (starting trap) from the Hunter Kit.
Thanks for the feedback. I created a new character started in SoD. No import or mp. So I checked in EE Keeper after creation. MY newly created Corsair has the [206] D5_ACBO1
I removed it, load the changed save game. Tried to select the a feat. Sadly no change All 3 feat icons only lead to an empty bar.
The downside: no arcane spellcasting. This is a biggie. At-will new-style bard songs would replace vanilla songs and arcane casting together.
I mean, that basically ruins the point of having a bard. In the Infinity Engine games (and, to a lesser extent, in 2E in general), bards are the of the road "gish". Without any arcane spellcasting, the ability to be a decent ranged/melee character with songs is all they got. Just about every edition of D&D allows bards to have limited arcane spellcasting, and I don't think that should be changed. Why not just make the bard spells weaker than you were originally desiring? Strong enough to be worth the buff, but not strong enough to always be picked over a spell. The bard songs could be things like "+1 to Hit, +1d6 HP" or "+1 AC, +1 Spell Saves". Minor buffs that you want to take, but not major enough to be OP.
I'm a big proponent of balance, but I'd caution against completely retooling how bards work. When you redid fighters and thieves, you very much kept in theme with the current kits and class feels. Your suggested bard changes are going to completely rework bards and change the entire way they are played.
The problem now is, bards are really crappy gish. They are inferior to fighter/mages in basically every way, in basically every circumstance. Pick Pockets and vanilla bard song in no way make up for their disadvantages relative to fighter/mages. All the things that make bards amazingly cool in PnP do not translate into BG.
I agree. So...would it not be cooler to bring bards closer to the PnP implementation? I'm sure there's Infinity Engine limitations here, but can it be done?
I never understood, why Bards in D&D have spells. I know they are supposed to be jack of all trades. But to me just because somebody learns to sing he also has a nag for spells? But I think this is a point of view and just my personal one maybe.
I really like the idea to put them together with Thief as a rogue class. It feels more fitting. Swashbucklers, juggler, Bards etc. all are charming and dexterity based in my opinion. Good for fencing, pickpocket, lockpicking, charming, diplomatics etc.
An open ob the Bard slot to make new and interesting class combos would be awesome.
I never understood, why Bards in D&D have spells. I know they are supposed to be jack of all trades. But to me just because somebody learns to sing he also has a nag for spells? But I think this is a point of view and just my personal one maybe.
It comes from the 2E Player Handbook. To use the supplemental book, Complete Bard's Handbook, as my support here:
In addition to their many special abilities, bards dabble in wizardry. They gain no spells until 2nd level and they progress through the spell levels slower than true wizards. However, they are very adept learners, so their casting level is equal to their experience level. Thus, although a bard gains his first spell at 2nd level, he casts that spell as a 2nd level spellcaster. For example, if the 2nd-level bard memorized affect normal fires, it would last for four rounds when cast (two rounds/level). Besides just dabbling in wizardry, 10th-level bards have the powerful ability to use any written magical item, whether it is a scroll, book, map, or other written form. This skill is not limited by normal class restrictions. Thus, bards can use clerical scrolls, wizard scrolls, and even magical books restricted to other classes. Since all bards are dabblers and not devotees of the magical arts, their understanding of written magic is imperfect. There is a 15% chance that they use the work incorrectly. The consequences of incorrect use is up to the DM, but they are almost certain to be unpleasant. (It is common for a bard's allies to flee in panic when he begins to read such items.)
In order words, bards have always dabbled in a bit of everything, wizardry included.
Now, obviously, the PnP 2E implementation is different than the BG implementation. If the PnP implementation were modded into BG, I think we'd see much improvement.
Comments
I like ur mods, and this feat system is great !
Edit: its more work, but with new portrait mini icon opportunities in last patches may the abilities have mini buff icons, and dont need to suck wiith states.bam.
Edit2: and what i forgot, you can strongering some feats thats only avaliable at higher levels or just create low level feats, and higher level feats egz: lvl 12 and above.
We already have HLAs, which I think work just fine as "feats for higher levels".
Just kidding
But my thing has ALWAYS been game balance. It's great being the "Grim Reaper", because you're so overpowered. Except...then there's no game balance.
Technically like martial fireshield.
I tried testing the Corsair (had not much time sadly) with the latest mod version (2.5.7).
When I selected a feat innate, only a empty bar appeared (similar to the Shadowdancer problem I had)
The test was done in The Black Pit, could this be part of the issue? I like the list. Is it possible to make feats that change or improve other feats?
For example: Double Brewing - When using Brew Potions, Advanced Brew Potions you get an extra potion. Sounds good to me. But if you get brew potion at level 1, and this at level 4 (1 feat all 3 level? or 2 level?)
it would be very power full. That would be a fireball (Oil of Fiery Burning) one level lower than a Wizard can cast them. I think getting it at level 6 should be fine. Maybe the feat requirement would be 2 other feats:
Brew Potions (level 1) -> Flaming Weapon (level 3) -> Advanced Brew Potions (level 5) Compatibility is always a fair point. And the stuff from RR and Refinements is to good to not use it
So if it is possible, than it would be great to have it.
Maybe as an easy option for now, you could make the HLA components optional, so its possible to choose what HLA you want to use.
So here is an updated framework idea for the Alchemist:
Advantages:
Level 1: Brew Potions, Smoke Bomb + Grease Jar
Level 3: Flaming Weapon
Level 5: Brew Potions (additinal use)
Level 7: Advanced Brew Potions
Level 9: Free feat (feat list: Traps, Posions, Use Wands, Use Scrolls, +1 Backstab)
Level 11: Free feat
....
Disadvantages:
- Gets only 20 points per level (as any Thief kit in your mod)
- Backstab multi stays x1 (can only increased one time by taking a feat)
- Limited feat list (Only Traps, Posions, Use Wands, Use Scrolls, +1 Backstab)
I think the Alchemist is very focused on Brewing things up, so he has a determined path till level 9.
And his feat selection is limited.
What do you think subtledoctor?
Created a new Corsair:
SoD -> Start in BG1: Gave 2000 exp with EE Keeper (1.0.3.5) Leveld up and added another 2000 to get to level 3. Got feat selection innate. Select it -> emtpy Bar
SoD -> Start in SoD: Same issue, 3 feat selection icons - when selected an empty bar appears.
I will try a reinstall. Maybe I broke something.
(But it was a clean test installation with M&G only after patching SoD 2.2.66.0)
Cant wait for 2.6 this stuff is so great. But also you should have some time to enjoy playing the game
Edit: Also I hope it has no impact. I'm playing on Windows 7.
Same issue in SoD. I get no feats to select for the Corsair.
I did some more tests. With 2.5.7, the Thief and all Kits also gets an empty bar, I cannot choose any feats.
This was working in the version before. Very strange.
On the got side, I was able to place the Spike Trap (starting trap) from the Hunter Kit.
I created a new character started in SoD. No import or mp.
So I checked in EE Keeper after creation. MY newly created Corsair has the [206] D5_ACBO1
I removed it, load the changed save game. Tried to select the a feat. Sadly no change
All 3 feat icons only lead to an empty bar.
And here the Hunter (same issue):
I hope I find some time soon to test this new version, it sounds very good.
Why not just make the bard spells weaker than you were originally desiring? Strong enough to be worth the buff, but not strong enough to always be picked over a spell. The bard songs could be things like "+1 to Hit, +1d6 HP" or "+1 AC, +1 Spell Saves". Minor buffs that you want to take, but not major enough to be OP.
I'm a big proponent of balance, but I'd caution against completely retooling how bards work. When you redid fighters and thieves, you very much kept in theme with the current kits and class feels. Your suggested bard changes are going to completely rework bards and change the entire way they are played. I'd have to see it in action to really know, but I'm hesitant.
But to me just because somebody learns to sing he also has a nag for spells?
But I think this is a point of view and just my personal one maybe.
I really like the idea to put them together with Thief as a rogue class. It feels more fitting.
Swashbucklers, juggler, Bards etc. all are charming and dexterity based in my opinion.
Good for fencing, pickpocket, lockpicking, charming, diplomatics etc.
An open ob the Bard slot to make new and interesting class combos would be awesome.
Now, obviously, the PnP 2E implementation is different than the BG implementation. If the PnP implementation were modded into BG, I think we'd see much improvement.
On that note, have you checked out bard kits in the Complete Bard's Handbook, @subtledoctor? https://spillklubben.samfunnet.no/Filer/ad&dbooks/complete bard's handbook.pdf
These could be used as inspiration, imho.