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Community Question: Maxing a char in Black Pits before exporting to BG2, cheating or legit?

NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 380
Hey community,

I've come to notice that Baldur's Gate Black Pits have a higher XP cap than the main story arc. My question by majority consensus is it legit to max a story or new character in BP before exporting to SoA or is it unfair?
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Comments

  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 380
    It doesn't. I'm just interested how most players would approach this aspect of the game. Just happened to notice an exploit upon Dual-classing. After maxing a Kensai at lvl 9 then Dual-classing as a lvl 1 under the BP cap upon exporting to a new SoA game the char was given 9 free mage lvls to start off with! Essentially, after defeating Irenicus' lair the char had all of it's abilities back on the onset of SoA. That's why I'm asking.
  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    why did he get added xp? is it because if you import a character to BG2 with lower than expected experience, the game automatically makes the difference up for you?
    in that case, isn't nine levels a bit much?

    i'm just interested about the mechanism

    ...but yeah, it's cheating
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    You might as well EEKeeper/Console the experience, that's basically what you are doing, except in a less convenient way.
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 380
    That's just what happened. Intended to start at level 1 as mage but the game just bumped up the XP 9 levels randomly. Seems like an exploit.
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 380
    bob_veng said:

    why did he get added xp? is it because if you import a character to BG2 with lower than expected experience, the game automatically makes the difference up for you?
    in that case, isn't nine levels a bit much?

    i'm just interested about the mechanism

    ...but yeah, it's cheating

    Yeah, apparently so. Any character with a relatively low level (under 7 I'm assuming) gets a random XP boost upon starting for whatever reason. Seems flawed especially when using a D-Classed character at level 1.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592
    Noloir said:

    bob_veng said:

    why did he get added xp? is it because if you import a character to BG2 with lower than expected experience, the game automatically makes the difference up for you?
    in that case, isn't nine levels a bit much?

    i'm just interested about the mechanism

    ...but yeah, it's cheating

    Yeah, apparently so. Any character with a relatively low level (under 7 I'm assuming) gets a random XP boost upon starting for whatever reason. Seems flawed especially when using a D-Classed character at level 1.
    It is just that when you start BP2, if you have less than 500k exp you will have a boost up to 500k exp, the same way you start ToB with 2.5M exp if you start ToB without SoA before it, or without completing it, and have less than 2.5M exp with the character you play, you'll start with 2.5M exp
  • NoloirNoloir Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 380
    Arunsun said:

    Noloir said:

    bob_veng said:

    why did he get added xp? is it because if you import a character to BG2 with lower than expected experience, the game automatically makes the difference up for you?
    in that case, isn't nine levels a bit much?

    i'm just interested about the mechanism

    ...but yeah, it's cheating

    Yeah, apparently so. Any character with a relatively low level (under 7 I'm assuming) gets a random XP boost upon starting for whatever reason. Seems flawed especially when using a D-Classed character at level 1.
    It is just that when you start BP2, if you have less than 500k exp you will have a boost up to 500k exp, the same way you start ToB with 2.5M exp if you start ToB without SoA before it, or without completing it, and have less than 2.5M exp with the character you play, you'll start with 2.5M exp
    That's the odd aspect about it though. The inactive base Kensai class has 250k XP upon importing. Why is the XP prior overlooked? Shouldn't the char be raised by an addtional 250k XP if any at all under those conditions? Just glad to have been smart enough to save 2 versions of the character. One pre-dual class as a lvl 9 Kensai and one Lvl 9 Kensai/ Lvl 1 mage just to have the option of making a fighter/thief Kensai char.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    I would probably call it cheating.

    I sometimes up my EXP to 161' if I start a new char without going through BG1 first, since I always hit the cap in BG1 on a normal playthrough. I would call this cheesing but not cheating. Cheating is, in my humble opinion, to start at a much better position than was originally intended. If you keeper that EXP in or playthrough BP1 doesn't really matter since the end result is the same; you start at a much higher power curve than intended, making the start of the game very easy.

    With this said though, it's your game, do whatever you want.

    Regarding the starting exp-boost you get I can't understand why you recieve so much exp. I know too little about the game mechanics to even speculate as to why, but it seems weird.
  • GrumGrum Member, Mobile Tester Posts: 2,100
    Free xp. But you lose out on BG1 tomes. Losing the +1 strength hurts as a fighter. Losing +3 wisdom makes some classes cry.

    I call it a wash.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    I prefer to call it a trick if it doesn't involve manipulating with files outside of the game. In-game stuff wouldn't count as a cheat. To activate the console, for instance, you have to edit a file outside of the game. If you can export and import this character from BP to BG in-game, I'd call it a trick, exploit, bug, or glitch, depending on how it works.

    Wand of Lightning spell duplication: glitch, since that's definitely not how the Wand of Lightning is supposed to work, due to coding. I call it a "trick" most of the time, though. The potion swap glitch is another example.
    Talk-blocking: exploit, since it probably isn't what the developers intended, but isn't exactly a coding issue per se. Mislead song stacking is another gray area.
    Scorcher loop: trick, since single-target spells are supposed to bounce off of spell turning effects.
    Stat drain on plot-relevant characters: bug, since it's not supposed to happen and it can break the game
    CTRL-Y: cheat, since you have to exit the game to make it work.

    Of course, it's not a cheat if it's a mod, for whatever reason.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @semiticgod By that definition console games have no cheats?
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    edited October 2015
    Post deleted. Most of the stuff is no longer relevant.
    Post edited by semiticgoddess on
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    @semiticgod I brought it up to point out what I find is a poor definition. That is indeed relevant when asked to decide whether an action is cheating or not. Lots of console games include cheats that are activated by button combinations, so called "cheat codes". Your definition excludes these, since they are in the game without modifying external files. Hence, I would argue your definition is not good enough.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @FinneousPJ: Button combinations. I was wondering where you were going with this. I don't know; I only use those definitions for BG2.

    I guess you could add a provision, if we wanted to get precise, that stuff officially labeled a "cheat code" can constitute a cheat even if it requires no external modification. Or that "codes" in general are cheats. But then, what differentiates a cheat code from one of those old passwords you could put in a game to skip ahead? These things always get fuzzy when you go down into the details. Most would agree a code for infinite health is a cheat, but an equally obscure code to activate a 2nd quest mode is just a password.
  • ArunsunArunsun Member Posts: 1,592

    @FinneousPJ: Button combinations. I was wondering where you were going with this. I don't know; I only use those definitions for BG2.

    I guess you could add a provision, if we wanted to get precise, that stuff officially labeled a "cheat code" can constitute a cheat even if it requires no external modification. Or that "codes" in general are cheats. But then, what differentiates a cheat code from one of those old passwords you could put in a game to skip ahead? These things always get fuzzy when you go down into the details. Most would agree a code for infinite health is a cheat, but an equally obscure code to activate a 2nd quest mode is just a password.

    These passwords stand as replacement for saves, because games used to not have any way of saving progression. Yeah that's a code, but not a cheat code. I am positive that when you turn on your computer and start BG2, you do not always start a new game
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2015
    The user and all related content has been deleted.
  • abazigal5abazigal5 Member Posts: 290
    I do this all the time. xD
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    I'd call it an exploit, certainly. Maybe even a bug, although if it only affects BP characters, that's less of an obvious thing to fix.

    I wouldn't say it's cheating to take advantage of the exploit. I would say that playing through the Black Pits is cheating, though, since you're taking a shortcut around BG to start BGII at a higher level. But you knew what you were doing, so I wouldn't fault you as a player for doing it.
  • DurenasDurenas Member Posts: 508
    It's 'cheating' but it doesn't matter. Knock yourself out.
  • I don't know if I'd apply the word "unfair" to modifying a single-player game. It's not like the code is going to get annoyed that you're too powerful.

    Incidentally, the dual-classing exploit appears to work with normal BG->BG2 transfers. If a character has less than 89k XP in their active class when imported to SoA, they get bumped up to 89k.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,315
    edited November 2015
    From a story standpoint they aren't the same characters so it wouldn't make much sense from that angle. I view it in the similar way as I would view exporting back into BGEE to repeat the game through again. But ultimately you are free to do it.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Of course it's cheating. It's so blatantly cheating that the question shouldn't even need to be asked.

    Of course, it's also entirely up to you what you choose to do in the privacy of your own home. Maybe you also cheat at solitaire. The latter doesn't harm anyone else either, and in either case you're only cheating yourself out of the satisfaction of having won fairly, and no-one else need ever know that you're a cheat.

    On the other hand, if anyone finds out that you even cheat yourself and even when you gain nothing by it, then you can't blame them for wondering whether you might also be a cheat in more important matters when there might be something real at stake, so it reflects rather badly on your character.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @Gallowglass is basically Lawful Neutral when it comes to cheating. ;)
  • BillyYankBillyYank Member Posts: 2,768
    It's easy to tell if it's cheating or not.

    Are the extra levels making the beginning of SoA so easy you're getting bored? Then it's cheating.

    Did you used get frustrated at how hard early SoA is? And now, with the extra levels, do you find it more enjoyable? Then it's not cheating.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352



    On the other hand, if anyone finds out that you even cheat yourself and even when you gain nothing by it, then you can't blame them for wondering whether you might also be a cheat in more important matters when there might be something real at stake, so it reflects rather badly on your character.

    I find this statement rather exaggerated. I wouldn't care if I found out someone I knew was cheating in games, no matter if we were doing business, had a relationship or if I was in any other way interacting with that person.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    @Skatan - it's an undeniable fact that some people do think that way, but of course it's entirely up to you whether you care or not.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Personally, I feel a very strong obligation to other people to be good and honest to them. They're worth it.

    But a computer game? I'm not worried about hurting its feelings by cheating.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Well sure, @semiticgod, that's fine and decent, but it's not quite the point. It's not a matter of whether a game's "feelings" might be hurt, it's a matter of what impression your behaviour might convey to other people. The game (obviously) doesn't have feelings, but other people do.

    Look at it from the other person's point of view: they can't know for sure what feelings are going on inside your head, they have only the evidence they can see. If all they can initially see is that you cheat at trivial things, then of course it's a common reaction to wonder whether you might also cheat at serious things. That gets trust off to a poor start, even though (of course) you might eventually be able to overcome that bad initial impression.

    This is the very essence of honour: integrity at all times and in all matters, no matter how trivial and regardless of whether anyone else is watching.
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