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What makes a Ranger/Cleric so good?

LinkamusLinkamus Member Posts: 221
in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
I read a lot about different classes / kit combinations for Baldur's Gate, and I see a lot of people talk about how much they love playing a ranger/cleric, but I've had a hard time figuring out why. Is it just because of the access to druid spells? I just don't see why someone would play a ranger/cleric over a fighter/cleric. Please enlighten me, thanks!
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  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    yeah, just because of druid spells
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Additional Druid spells for a Cleric/Ranger (beyond what a Ranger would normally receive) have now been patched out (although this is an optional behaviour, configurable in the .ini file).

    Before, when a Cleric/Ranger had full access to all levels of Druid spells, it made the Cleric/Ranger very powerful. For example, a Cleric/Ranger could buff for combat with Iron Skins and thereby become physically invulnerable for the first several blows, which was a substantial advantage (and frequently enough to last the whole duration of a fight). A Fighter/Cleric can't do that ... and now, a Cleric/Ranger can't do it either.

    A lot of what you might have read about the advantages of a Cleric/Ranger was written before the extra Druid spells were patched out, but now it's not nearly such an advantageous class as it used to be. Now, you're probably better off going with a Fighter/Cleric for faster level progression.
  • LinkamusLinkamus Member Posts: 221
    I guess I should have searched a little harder before making this post. I guess in 1.3 they patched it so cleric/rangers no longer get the full arsenal of druid spells unless you modify an ini file. That's probably for the best. Since the previous build seems to be considered a bug and not legit, I don't really have interest anymore, haha.
  • SharguildSharguild Member Posts: 186
    I'll tell you what I have an issue with. I have an issue with someone telling me that the game I paid money for and that even though my play has no influence on the lives of others, it is being played "WRONG" because I may elect to create a Ranger/Cleric that has access to the full gamut of Divination Spells.
    Believe me when I say I have seen posts on this and other forums where people become almost apoplectic because you elect to role a Ranger/Cleric with the previous 'traits'.
    It's almost as if their entire reason for playing Baldur's Gate has been insulted and denigrated due to the fact that I am not playing the game the way THEY wish to see it played.
    Some of these individuals, no joke, have even enjoyed pointing out other exploits ( should you elect to call it that) without issue but lose their mind over this issue.
    Um, it is a fantasy based game, correct? The rules, if you elect to call them that, were made by a couple of guys in a basement ( Gary Gygax and Dave Arneson).
    The rules have been changed so many times since then they rival the Bible for revisions.
    So, if I decide that I wish to create a character that has studied both the magical aspects of nature and the magical aspects of the 'Powers', how exactly does that affect your mortgage payment?
    It doesn't?
    Exactly...
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  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2015
    subtledoctor said:

    But the problem here is that fighter->xyz dual classes reaching GM is *also* a bug.

    Fighter dual classes getting the ability to gain grandmastery (when their fighter class is no longer their active class) differs from PnP but it is intended behaviour.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    edited November 2015
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  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2015
    The BG series rules have always differed from PnP. The original BG1and IWD had something more along the lines of the dual classing rules described in the players handbook but even they took a different approach to handling it than PnP (and BG2 ultimately took a different approach to both of them). I tend to view these things as wanting to ensure the games consistently follow the rules of their own series, so the BG games follow all their own rules, Icewind Dale has its own consistent rule system, etc. Rather than worrying so much if its following PnP.

    As far as my own thoughts on the cleric/ranger I would say that if you are looking for an early dual-wielding build in the default rules then the cleric/ranger multiclass is going to be better than the fighter/cleric, but long term the fighter/cleric wins out. If you have the druid spells ini option enabled then long term the cleric/ranger wins out, but the only real difference spell wise between the two in BGEE is going to be maybe access to Entangle and eventually Call Woodland Beings. Dual-classing is a different story of course. Without the ini option I would say fighter/cleric wins out (especially given that you have sanctuary for scouting) but with it the ranger->cleric wins out.
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  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    "we changed R/C spell access because it was technically wrong, and there is value in making it right; the post-dual grandmastery thing is also technically wrong but he resources necessary to fix it are not worth the potential benefit for doing so"
    Pretty much this.

    The R/C fix came as a result of Icewind Dale: Enhanced Edition, since that was something the original game did that we needed to support. The option exists to restore it for those who like the original behavior from BG, and although its appearance in BG:EE/BGII:EE was largely an oversight (you'll notice that it's not listed in the patch notes anywhere), it ultimately does make the game more faithful to the tabletop game, so it's not likely to be reverted.

    The dual-class/Grand Mastery thing may find a similar fix if there ever becomes a necessity for it, but it's doubtful that such a need will ever arise (especially since Icewind Dale was the last IE game to use Second Edition AD&D rules).
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited November 2015
    Plus we are talking about a change that is extremely minor in comparison to the ruleset the game already uses (and the ways that it differentiates itself from PnP). Real-time with pause, no spell material components, no racial level restrictions, very few non-combat skills, considerably different higher level abilities, etc. So I think there is something to be said for keeping the rules as a good guideline but I also don't think there is any risk of the game somehow not being D&D by having it.

    As for the Cleric/Ranger itself personally I favour making the default in the BG series that it is allowed to get druid spells as default, while the IWD series gets the opposite treatment (with the option to turn on/off as appropriate). As Dee pointed out its not something that is likely to be reverted however.
  • SharguildSharguild Member Posts: 186
    This ^
  • OlvynChuruOlvynChuru Member Posts: 3,080
    Normally one of the main ways in which a ranger is weaker in combat than a fighter is that the fighter can put five points in a weapon type while a ranger can only put two points. However, a multiclassed fighter/cleric can only put two points as well, as can a multiclassed cleric/ranger. When you're talking about multiclasses, fighter/clerics don't have very much going for them that cleric/rangers don't have.
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    OlvynChuru said:

    When you're talking about multiclasses, fighter/clerics don't have very much going for them that cleric/rangers don't have.

    The main advantage for an F/C multi-class, IMO, is that they level faster and higher - an F/C reaches Fighter 24 by end-ToB, whereas a R/C reaches only Ranger 21. The F/C will therefore spend most of the game 1 or 2 levels higher (initially 0 but eventually 3) than the R/C, therefore having better THAC0 and Saves for most of the game. It also gives the F/C three extra HLAs (which can be pretty useful!) and slightly more HP, and (eventually!) catches up one of the two extra proficiencies with which the R/C begins.

    The above aren't gigantic advantages for the F/C multiclass, but the factors which favour the R/C are also fairly minor (IMO) now that the extra spells have been patched out. IMO, the faster levelling gives the F/C a slight edge for multi-class, but it's a small enough difference that the balance of advantage could be affected by playing-style and party composition and so on, so YMMV.
  • [Deleted User][Deleted User] Posts: 0
    Also, you can play a Dwarven F/C multiclass and get that extra Con and shorty saves, while a R/C has to be a Half-Elf (assuming you're playing vanilla).
  • JustLeftJustLeft Member Posts: 76
    edited November 2015
    If you remove the experience cap in BG1 and level up, will you still have access to Druid spells? there is no ini option. If not, will you get the spells after you import to BG2?
  • KilivitzKilivitz Member Posts: 1,459
    Actually, the R/C is still getting all Druid spells in BG1. The fix will probably be in the next patch.
  • DJKajuruDJKajuru Member Posts: 3,300
    Well, they are indeed better than fighter/clerics because they can hide in shadows and choose a favored enemy.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    edited November 2015
    R/C and F/C is not a contest, really. While Fighters do level faster, they also reach diminishing returns quite quickly, especially without access to Grand Mastery. Levels above 9 are not impressive for Fighters.

    R/C and F->C is a more interesting comparison. You sacrifice access to druid spells for Grand Mastery, which is a significant damage increase (especially with Draw Upon Holy Might in the mix). However, there is Whirlwind to consider later on, which can close the APR gap fairly effectively. Cleric HLAs in comparison are not that impressive, especially considering the R/C gets them, too, and there is diminishing returns here as well (can't pick spells more than once).
    Kit bonuses is another thing to consider. They are quite strong in BG2, both the Berserker and the Kensai have attractive perks going for them. Especially in solo games, Berserker Rage may be something you do not want to live without. But that, of course, is a personal choice based on many factors.

    I suppose it comes down to how highly you value your character's performance at various points in the game. Unsurprisingly, multiclass characters are ahead early and late, while duals are best around the mid point where they essentially turn into multiclass + bonus (as the levels of both classes are fairly equal at that time). Depending on which part of the game you consider the most challenging, you may choose differently.

    Or you could just boil it down to kit bonuses vs. druid spells. Personally, I never could make friends with the druid spell selection, essentially using Iron Skins and little else. But that's just me.
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    edited November 2015
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    Kit bonuses is another thing to consider. They are quite strong in BG2, both the Berserker and the Kensai have attractive perks going for them. Especially in solo games, Berserker Rage may be something you do not want to live without. But that, of course, is a personal choice based on many factors.

    That reminds me to use the Berserker Rage of the F>C that lost his knighthood: Anomen. In my current playthrough, I had him choose the path that leads to him becoming CN and gain the Berserker kit (a feature of the Gibberlings 3 NPC kit mod) for roleplaying reasons, but I never thought about having him go Berserk. I associate Berserk with the out-of-control getting of Minsc, but Berserk with the kit ain't like that, isn't it?

  • bob_vengbob_veng Member Posts: 2,308
    yes, the berserker doesn't actually go into "berserk" status. instead he gains the "enrage" buff
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    As I understand it, it's the whole point of the Berserker kit that you can channel that rage. So rather than just flailing and frothing wildly about, you can use the emotional state for, err, "constructive" purposes. Whereas any ordinary person going berserk, as it were, will indeed just rampage around indiscriminately.
  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    Well, that sure comes in handy when I enter chapter 3 after 10.000 gp: Anomen can cast Negative Plane Protection on someone else and Enrage himself to be safe from level-drain!
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  • Tad_Has_A_Cold_OliveTad_Has_A_Cold_Olive Member Posts: 183
    edited November 2015
    subtledoctor said:

    bob_veng said:

    yes, the berserker doesn't actually go into "berserk" status.

    Ya - in these games, berserk rage is not berserk at all, instead it's just a powerful Mind Shield effect. You can still do all sorts of stuff that require calm, rational thinking, like strategic retreats (!), spellcasting (!), etc.

    That's why I hate vanilla berserkers. The mechanics of the kit have nothing to do with the theme/description of the kit.
    I prefer to think of it as tranquil fury* myself. Yes, you're angry, but it's not of the frothing-at-the-mouth variety. You cooly and calmly take your enemy apart, the slight furrow in your brow being the only indication that you might be even the tiniest bit mad.

    * TV Tropes link http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/TranquilFury
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  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,806
    I wonder what PnP 2nd edition AD&D has to say about that. Anybody knows?
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