Dwarf Assassin?

Aerakar

I have recently played Halfling and Dwarven bounty hunters and also a Halfling assassin using darts. The Dwarven character was the most fun. I am thinking now to play a crafty Dwarven assassin from BGEE to the end of BG2EE.

Is a Dwarf viable as an assassin given the dexterity? I will have a 2nd thief with me to handle traps/locks in both games, but am doubtful on the combat side, given that Assassins excel at ranged high APR weapons.

What about weapon proficiency order? Could crossbow/throwing dagger work as his ranged weapons, or best to stick to the higher APR weapons?

joluv

Certainly viable. There's a 2 APR crossbow and all throwing daggers have 2 APR, so you're not sacrificing much there. If your Dwarf has high strength, you'll get a damage bonus with throwing daggers that you wouldn't get with darts. Shortbows are probably a bit stronger than crossbows, but I can see the RP appeal of crossbows here. Sounds like a fun character!

OlvynChuru

Crossbows and throwing daggers are good, but it might be better to stick to using shortbows so that when you get some Arrows of Detonation you can poison everyone in an area of effect.

joluv

@OlvynChuru: That is indeed a devastating tactic, but Arrows of Detonation always hit, so spending a proficiency point on shortbows isn't necessary for that.

jesterdesu

Losing one dex doesn't do loads. You can check the full effects at playithardcore

TheArtisan

It's actually quite a significant downside since you lose one point of THAC0 on ranged weapons which is really bad for the early game. I've never done a dwarven assassin before but I would run 18/17/19 in physical stats (yes there's no hp bonus for pureclass thieves but there's nothing better to sink points into besides con) and you could put the gauntlets of dexterity on until you get to Baldur's Gate for the dexterity tome and have fighters with decent dexterity like Khalid.

I think the crossbow of speed is the best ranged weapon in BG1 tied with the long bow of marksmanship, but that's just my experience speaking. In BG2 the Firetooth crossbow comes much earlier than most end-game ranged weapons and bolts of biting are everywhere.

Edit: Oh and forgot to mention that I would put my level 1 proficiency points into daggers and single weapon style since daggers double as melee and ranged while also gaining benefit from strength. By the time you can afford the crossbow of speed you'll have your next proficiency point for it.

JuliusBorisov

Not everyone play with maxed STR, DEX and CON stats, quite often people go with 17 in DEX and feel just fine. Yes, you'll lose THAC0, and lose thieving skills, but still you'll be a dwarf, all you saving throws will be there, and, you know, the feeling of playing a dwarf.

Those NPCs in your party, the second thief included, are not min-maxed. Not all of them has 18 or 19 in stats, but they're still useful and good.

After all, you have to ask yourself, do you play this or that character because of his or her power, or because you just want to.

For starting proficiencies, I would choose a weapon with more APR at the start (daggers or bows) - yes, there's a +1 ARP crossbow, but you need money and can spend a proficiency that comes at the 4th level on it. If you don't have 18 STR, a bow is better just because you don't have to carry daggers (and their weight). But again, is "better" the main deciding factor here?

Gotural

Considering Poison Weapon adds at least 12 damage per hit without save, I'm pretty sure Darts are going to be your best bet during BG1.

Plus Darts of Stunning + Poison Weapon is an absolutely lethal combo, what's not to love?

If you can cast Doom and/or Greater Malison, it's even more fun.

Astafas

I'm playing one named Kildrak right now, and it's going excellent. He uses the short bow(s) and a short sword/dagger/club. I actually toned downed the stats some, having 16, 18, 16 (and 14, 11, 12) after using the tomes in BG1. He's now level 15. Traps and poison are a blast. :-)

Gallowglass

With an Assassin, your Poison Weapon ability is the key, it's very powerful. Poison an enemy, immediately switch to the next enemy and poison him too, rinse and repeat ... let the poison do the work, don't worry about trying to kill the enemy with missile damage. Thus either Darts or (in BG2) the Tuigan Bow (both 3 APR unbuffed) are terrific weapons for an Assassin. I gave an Assassin proficiency in both Darts and Shortbow, and found this tactic worked devastatingly well through the whole saga. (Poison Weapon is a much more significant ability for an Assassin than the enhanced backstab, the latter is a comparatively trivial benefit.)

A Dwarf? Yes, of course it's do-able. If you fancy being a Dwarf for RP/fun reasons, then fine, go for it. Mechanically a Dwarf will not be able to make quite such effective use of the Assassin kit as a Halfling (or indeed an Elf) because the weakness of any singleclass Thief is poor THAC0, and obviously a Halfling's (or Elf's) better DEX helps to alleviate that problem when using ranged weapons (which an Assassin ought to be doing most of the time). Nevertheless, I've no doubt that a Dwarven Assassin would still be pretty effective (even though I haven't tried it myself).

As for taking another Thief for locks/traps/etc ... in BG1, yes, the slower Thief point progression of the Assassin makes it useful to have another Thief to cover the gaps. However, in BG2, at least after the early stages, even an Assassin will have accumulated enough Thief points that s/he shouldn't need a second Thief.

Gallowglass

@Astafas - that's a really good portrait for an Assassin. Where does it come from?

Astafas

@Gallowglass Thanks! I've made it myself. From the same photo (of myself, though it's hard to see) I've used for the profile portrait on this forum.

Astafas

Gallowglass said:

As for taking another Thief for locks/traps/etc ... in BG1, yes, the slower Thief point progression of the Assassin makes it useful to have another Thief to cover the gaps. However, in BG2, at least after the early stages, even an Assassin will have accumulated enough Thief points that s/he shouldn't need a second Thief.

Also, In BG2 you have several rings that will enhance your thief skills. And if you have at least one mage in the party, you also have access to Invisibility and Knock. The Bhaal power Draw upon Holy Might will finally temporarily boost your stats, Dex included.

jesterdesu

Iirc dwarves get bonuses for the more mechanical thief skills too.

Skatan

I don't know about you playstyle, but for me any assassin I make have to be able to pull his/her weight without poison weapon. You don't have enough uses per day to use it in every fight, unless you want to rest in absurdum. With that said, I prefer to pick darts later for an assassin and choose a better starting proficency which is good enough even without poison weapon. This means either shortbow or xbow + a choice of melee at level 1, then moving on to darts or another melee weapon later on depending on RP and effeciency choices for the character.

Gallowglass

Skatan said:

I don't know about you playstyle, but for me any assassin I make have to be able to pull his/her weight without poison weapon. You don't have enough uses per day to use it in every fight, unless you want to rest in absurdum.

Well sure, playing styles vary.

In the earlier stages of BG1ee, yes, you can easily run out of uses of Poison Weapon, so it's a judgment call which battles to use it and when to save it up for later instead, but it's not as if you need it for every minor combat. By late-BG1ee, I found that 3 uses-per-day was enough to have it available for every occasion when I felt any need for it.

In BG2ee, of course, you end up with many more (eventually 10) uses-per-day, which I found ample.

Skatan said:

With that said, I prefer to pick darts later for an assassin and choose a better starting proficency which is good enough even without poison weapon. This means either shortbow or xbow + a choice of melee at level 1, then moving on to darts or another melee weapon later on depending on RP and effeciency choices for the character.

I gave him Dart and Sswd initially, then Sbow at level 4, and 1WS at level 8. However, I can agree that Sbow at level 1 and Dart at level 4 would be a plausible alternative. However, if you don't give him Darts by at least level 4 to get that extra APR for when you're using the Poison Weapon ability more often in the second half of BG1ee, then I seriously don't think you'd be making optimal use of the Assassin kit.

Even when he had only 1 use-per-day of Poison Weapon, and even when he had Darts without also Shortbow, my Assassin was usually killing more enemies than my warriors - which is a darn good combat performance for a Thief! In particular, when relying on Darts, the Gauntlets of Weapon Specialisation can be used to turn them into a surprisingly effective weapon at 3 APR against mostly quite weak enemies, even working without poison. And of course there are Darts of Wounding and Darts of Stunning and so on, for when you want more punch.

jesterdesu

Adding assassin poison to an already poisoned weapon always gets me excited... it really makes certain fights trivial

Aerakar

@Gallowglass, what do you think about an Elf Assassin's ranged weaponry? Also darts and shortbow, or shortbow only, given the +1 THACO racial bonus? I am currently running an Elf Assassin starting a trilogy run. I started him with shortbows and longswords, so need to plan weapon proficiencies for 4, 8, 12, 16.

Gallowglass

@Aerakar - sure, for an Elf Assassin it makes sense to take advantage of the racial THAC0 bonus by starting him off with a bow. Hitting a little more reliably can be a life-saver in those early stages.

For all the reasons already discussed, I'd give him Darts next (level 4), so that you can maximise the power of Poison Weapon through the mid-game stages.

I'd give him Single Weapon Style at level 8 for when he's either forced into melee or attempting a backstab, both because it's a better "shield" than a buckler and because it doubles your critical hit chance with a melee weapon. (Nevertheless, I wouldn't bother too much with backstab as a regular tactic, since a single-class Thief's THAC0 is never good enough for reliable backstabbing - if I want a good backstabber, I'll go for a Stalker or some variety of Fighter/Thief. Assassins are much better off using Poison Weapon, that's what makes it a powerful kit.)

For level 12 ... there are times when you want blunt damage, so I'd give him a proficiency in either Club or Quarterstaff. If Quarterstaff, then Two-Handed Style for level 16 (to double the chance of a critical hit with the staff). If Club, then I reckon that the level 16 proficiency depends very much upon what weapons other members of your party will be using ... for example, if no-one else is ready to use the Firetooth +3 returning throwing dagger, then Daggers might be a good choice. If you have no-one else using Crossbows, then you might consider that for your Assassin - there are some situationally-advantageous crossbow bolts later on, and in particular you can score a large supply of bolts from the Kuo-Toa which have a useful stun chance - stun combined with an Assassin's poison is a real killer.