Pit fiends: Are they so worthless?

Arunsun

I recently made a Cleric/illusionist playthrough, and at some point I thought "Are Pit Fiend so worthless?"
Just a small "technical" foreword before I get to business. Summoned demons have a rather unique property I discovered during the playthrough: though having a red circle, being targetable as enemies etc... they are still considered as your summons, meaning any AoE buff spells that would affect allies will affect them as well. That noticably includes protection from evil 10' radius, haste, strength of one, bless, etc... However the kills they make won't grant you experience.

Now that this was said, here is how I did it. I would prepare my chain contingency with three gates (from the level 7 priest spell. They are the same Pit Fiend as those from the level 9 mage spell Gate as far as I am aware).
I would also prepare a sequencer with Strength of One (Pit Fiend only have 18, so 18/76 is bettet), protection from evil 10' radius (to prevent them for killing each other) and haste. Sometimes I would add a minor sequencer with Bless and Chant.


As soon as the contingency triggers I would use the spell sequencer, buffing them all, and let them do their things. I must say their triple fireball deals with many enemies quite fast.
For most battles this will be enough. However their Thac0 is sometimes not high enough, hence the addition of bless, Chant, and Strength of one, so that it is lowered to 3. To help them further, you can consider using Power Word: blind on enemies (lowers their AC by 4) and Improved haste to replace Haste. They have a base 5APR, and though 6 is good already, 10 is really awesome

Oh and another really nice point in their advantage compared to planetar. They won't turn "more hostile" even if you bomb them with AoE. Feel free to use and abuse incendiary clouds, firestorms, fireballs (I prefer them to skull trap as it won't damage the pit fiend. I can't use skull trap anyway as illusionist though) sunfire etc...
When they are in need, a Mass cure will do the job as well.


Overall, if properly used, I would classify Pit Fiends as stronger than Devas. And you can summon several of them on top of that.

Lord_Tansheron

I don't like fiends. I don't like summons, period. They take too much effort and setup for too little effect, with very few exceptions.

While it's not impossible to make them work and "worthless" is a very harsh judgment, overall I'd rather not use them, personally.

SionIV

I'm not a big fan of Demons, as I don't get any experience from their kills. I used to summon them when I was new to the game, as they are very powerful, at least if you have no idea what you're doing. Even idiot me could cast a Protection from Evil and sit i the corner, snickering for myself while the demons clean house.

I play with SCS now, and that makes it a bit more problematic, as the enemy likes to dispel my Protection from Evil, and my demons somehow enjoy attacking me more than the enemy.

In the original game, you got experience from killing your own demons. So I would start the game as a Cleric and get high enough level to cast gate (Level 7). Then I would cast Protection from Evil on myself, and throw Bolt of Glory on the Demon, killing it quickly. 18 000 experience (something like that), rest and do it again. The Graveyard was a good place to do this, rest without getting interrupted and no civilians for the demon to attack.

Arunsun

@SionIV in this playthrough I picked a C/M, hence I had Staff of the Magi, which means permanent undispelable protection from evil. And Robe of Vecna so that I could quickly cast another AoE protection from evil so that the demons do not kill each other. Could as well use spell immunity. Since I was solo, I had less problems with XP.
@Lord_Tansheron A pity, really. Summons are very very good if used properly, because if they are used properly they should have a much bigger value than any spell (Well, except Project Image). Yes, it is more micromanagement if you want to make the most out of them, and it surely is annoying when playing a 6 members team, but when you play solo it's a chicken of a different color, and you have to use every possibility to do the best with only one character.

SionIV

I do agree with Arunsun that summons are very good. My favorite summon is the Skeletal Warrior (Cleric level 15). They have a high magic resistance, immune to normal weapons and they are also immune to most negative effects. A group of 5 Skeletal Warriors can clean out an entire Mind Flayer lair on their own.

And SCS nerfs the Staff of Magi.

Arunsun

Mmh I did not install any SCS component that removes Protection from evil, though I did remove invisibility. Anyway you may as well get the Sensate Amulet, it works as well.

semiticgoddess

@Arunsun: I tried a Cleric/Illusionist no-reload run recently and got killed by a Mind Flayer during Project Image, but I used a lot of demons once I got a hold of them, and they were excellent.

What I didn't know was that Protection from Evil 10' Radius would affect them. That's just spectacular.

Lord_Tansheron

The value of summons (like the value of so many other things) depends a lot on your individual game setup. If your setup is conducive to using summons, you should do so. Mine usually are not. I also don't play solo, where summons are definitely a thing.

Gallowglass

Well sure, the smaller your party, the more proportionate difference it makes to add a summons to the team!

I generally use a full party and I'm generally quite sparing in my use of summons, but if I were a soloist then I'm sure I'd be using summons a lot more.

However, I don't use summoned demons at all - in all these years, I can't remember ever doing so (although there might have been one or two instances which I've now forgotten). The reason is simply that I don't like not getting the XP.

SionIV

While I'm not a big fan of demons, other summons are very efficient and powerful. In my cleric teams (4 clerics), many of the harder fights get very easy because of the summons. First send in a few skeletal warriors to soak up spells, especially the death spell. Then send in another wave of skeletal warriors to soak up some more spells, when they are dying, summon 2 sets of Mountain Bears (2x2) and let them go in and tear things apart while you're throwing hold, confusion, silence, charm and anything you have to make the enemy immobile and prevent them from attacking. Once you reach higher levels, you can throw in a few Devas and Elementals.

The important thing to remember when using summons is that you should send them in waves. First the cheaper and more plentiful summons to soak up nasty spells, then send in stronger enemies afterwards. It''s very frustrating to summon your powerful minions, only to have the enemy cast one death spell and remove them all. Even if the enemy is killing your summons, they are spending resources to do so, and you an just summon new creatures to take the place of the ones that they kill.

Border

@Arunsun was very close to trying out your method (I much prefer following others experiments, vice experimenting myself) but the no XP is a deal-breaker for me. Still, very interesting.

Arunsun

@semiticgod It is both very useful because you can summon more than one demon and very weird roleplay-wise. Protecting a demon from evil is stupid when you think about it.

@Gallowglass in this particular demon case I would add it is much more micromanagement if you are to use demons. If soloing, if I am dispeled I just have to cast one protection from evil, I don't have to run around and cast protection from evil on everyone. And I just have to protect one character from their fireballs.

@SionIV Totally agreed about sending them by waves, hence the use of chain contingency in my case (because I can't command them directly). Demons are, of course, unaffected by death spell and Pit Fiends have, IIRC, 50% magic resistance, which makes them good at soaking spells as well. And since I stock them in contingencies, well, I can summon the first three with contingency, then summon more midfight as well.

@Border For various reason this strategy is best with a solo character, and the main of them is XP. A solo character will reach cap very fast anyway which is why you can afford doing this. With a team it's indeed a bad idea

semiticgoddess

For what it's worth, only about half of your XP comes from monster kills, and the demon will only take away the XP if it lands the final blow. The more characters you have in your party, the more you need that XP... but the more characters you have in your party, the less likely the demon is to land that final blow.

Gallowglass

Arunsun said:

Protecting a demon from evil is stupid when you think about it.

Well, yes, usually ... but ...

Demon Lord: "Right you lot, there's a party of adventurers coming down the corridor, stop all that squabbling and get ready!"
[Squad of Demon goons pause fighting one another.]
Assorted Demon goons: "Aw, boss, we wuz jes' practicing!" "Practicing?! You stole my favourite soul, you legitimate offspring!" "Get that pitchfork out of my tail, or else!" "Gimme back that Cursed Helm of Irony, you thieving scum!" "Or what? You'll report me for being Evil? Har, har!" "That's it! I'm gonna tear your heart out!" "Oh go to Lumia, you honest angel!"
[In-fighting resumes.]
Demon Lord: "Arghh! Demogorgon, lend me Strength! Don't you morons understand that there's Good to fight?"
[Demon Lord casts Protection from Evil 10' Radius.]

Border

Arunsun said:

@Border For various reason this strategy is best with a solo character, and the main of them is XP. A solo character will reach cap very fast anyway which is why you can afford doing this. With a team it's indeed a bad idea

Time for a solo sorceror run then!

Arunsun

Border said:

Arunsun said:

@Border For various reason this strategy is best with a solo character, and the main of them is XP. A solo character will reach cap very fast anyway which is why you can afford doing this. With a team it's indeed a bad idea

Time for a solo sorceror run then!

It works better with a M/C because you can summon three demons instantly with Priest Gate spell and chain contingency and won't need to "waste" level 9 spell slots, or in Sorcerer case, taking Gate instead of a stronger level 9 spell.

semiticgoddess

I just threw a Pit Fiend at the Unseeing Eye and it got petrified.

Arunsun

semiticgod said:

I just threw a Pit Fiend at the Unseeing Eye and it got petrified.

Xachrimos gives you a golden Ogre statue, you give the Unseeing Eye a Stone Pit Fiend statue, what's next?

ithildurnew

One word: aTweaks

http://www.shsforums.net/forum/598-atweaks/


Completely transforms behavior of fiends to make sense/better match what pnp fiends are capable of, including granting xp for kills by gated fiends. Warning though, all fiends become much more dangerous; pit fiends and balors will truly be deadly.

ifupauline

I love pit fiends, but I think it's not worth using a lvl 9 spell slot. They are better with cleric because you can summon them much sooner, which render plenty of battle much easier before the underdarks, particularly when dealing vs casters and large groups. Of course you don't send a pit fiend against a beholder, or mind flayers, it doesn't work...

Ohmega

ifupauline said:

I love pit fiends, but I think it's not worth using a lvl 9 spell slot.

You can use the Cleric's Gate Level 7 Spell, depends on what spells you want coming from where when you're playing a C/M. Cleric Gate is better anyway, faster casting.

Any reason for picking Cleric/Illusionist @Arunsun? Did you just Shadow Keeper to get the class or? Thoughts on Power Word: Kill to take the Exp when enemies get low? I was thinking of doing a Gating character for fun with PW:K. PW:K being a lvl 9 spell kind of sucks though... Probably don't have the spell slots...

Edit: Think Pit Fiend strength is 18/00. Wouldn't drop it much though even if it was.

Arunsun

@Ohmega I meant a multiclass gnome cleric/illusionist, because of the extra spell slot, not a dual Illusionist=>cleric.
The extra spellslot is actually quite significative but a classical C/M multiclass would work as well

Yelocessej

Lord_Tansheron said:

I don't like fiends. I don't like summons, period. They take too much effort and setup for too little effect, with very few exceptions.

While it's not impossible to make them work and "worthless" is a very harsh judgment, overall I'd rather not use them, personally.

I used to be that way. Then I started playing with a four person team instead of six and I have discovered summons to be a valuable asset. Fiends, however, are more trouble than they are worth.

Ohmega

Arunsun said:

@Ohmega I meant a multiclass gnome cleric/illusionist, because of the extra spell slot, not a dual Illusionist=>cleric.
The extra spellslot is actually quite significative but a classical C/M multiclass would work as well

Oh nevermind, didn't even realise that those were standard options for a Gnome. Other races always seemed so limited that I hardly ever look past Human/Half-Elf. i.e. You can't have an Elf Druid? ?!?!?!? What the hell is that? Anyway, gotta try this.

OlvynChuru

I think pit fiends are quite good, but in Baldur's Gate 2 they will inevitably be compared to planetars (in Icewind Dale on the other hand you can't summon planetars or devas, so pit fiends are probably the most powerful summons in that game). Pit fiends and planetars are good against the same kinds of enemies (ones that rely on magic and/or elemental damage) and bad against the same kinds of enemies (ones that rely on brute force). Pit fiends are worth trying out if you can't summon planetars or don't want to do so.

Arunsun

OlvynChuru said:

I think pit fiends are quite good, but in Baldur's Gate 2 they will inevitably be compared to planetars (in Icewind Dale on the other hand you can't summon planetars or devas, so pit fiends are probably the most powerful summons in that game). Pit fiends and planetars are good against the same kinds of enemies (ones that rely on magic and/or elemental damage) and bad against the same kinds of enemies (ones that rely on brute force). Pit fiends are worth trying out if you can't summon planetars or don't want to do so.

Very true, though I would add Pit Fiend are really good against groups of enemies as well, because of their fireballs. A planetar will certainly have done as much in the end but he will need more time.

Calmar

Just saying...

hoi_Gr

If you look at it from a Cleric perspective Pit Fiends are top notch. Clerics lack the really great summons and their lvl 7 spell selection is a bit weak.
Pit fiends tank, AoE and hit hard.

However they have some serious disadvantages:
1) No XP
2) A lot of non-friendly AoE (including dispel magic that might dispel your Protection from Evil)
3) Symbol Fear sends enemies running and I hate that
4) Enemies might have Protection as well and can dispel your protection

This makes them viable only in cheesing by sending them in the enemy and blasting them all from a distance.

Now if you have a mage in the party, Pit fiends are not that exceptional. Mordenkainen's Sword is tankier and hits as +4 instead of +1. Sure the pit fiend is faster at killing but a mage can also toss wand fireballs all day.

Not worthless, just outclassed by summons of other classes and very hard to work with.

Gallowglass

hoi_Gr said:

If you look at it from a Cleric perspective Pit Fiends are top notch. Clerics lack the really great summons and their lvl 7 spell selection is a bit weak.

Hmm, well, not convinced ... at lower levels, if I summon with a Cleric then it'll be Animate Dead, which is great because it's only a level 3 spell. Once your Cleric is level 15, then you get a Skeleton Warrior instead of an ordinary skellie, and the Skeleton Warrior is a very good summon - very long lasting, good resistances, etc. By the time Skeleton Warriors are useless, my Cleric can summon a Deva (or Fallen Deva if Evil), and I much prefer that to a Pit Fiend because I can control what a Deva does and get the XP for the kills, instead of the uncontrollability (and no XP!) of the Pit Fiend. Sometimes I also use Aerial Servant from a Cleric, either before I can summon a Deva or alongside a Deva.

vish

Elemental Summoning is a great spell, with the chance to summon an elemental prince. Animate Dead is a great spell as well. Early it's not so great but once you level up your Warriors grow in power a lot, and can easily dispatch your enemies. Nishruus are great to have in the pocket as well in ToB. Devas are Devas, everyone knows they're powerful. Mordenkainen's Sword is another great summoner spell worth having in your arsenal. Personally, if you don't use summoning spells you're selling yourself short especially if your playing with the SCS mod.

Summoning demons is really only a last resort type of thing like it says in their spell description. Worth having one slot in your spellbook at times, but most times you won't need them. They hit hard and fast, but their power spike dies off eventually. Have to remember a single Death Spell destroys any and all summoned creatures with 8 HD or less, so in this case Pit Fiends are vastly superior to all summons mentioned above. Pit Fiends definitely fill a niche, but for seasoned players their niche can dealt with in other ways.

semiticgoddess

Clerics can summon Pit Fiends at level 14. They can't summon Devas or cast Elemental Summoning until level 22. Devas and elementals may be more useful than Pit Fiends, but they take another 1.5 million XP to cast. That's a very big portion of the game in which Pit Fiends are the toughest summons a cleric can cast.