Trying to find a more interesting alternative to a mage in BG2
I'm not too sharp with the game mechanics compared to some of the fellas on this forum so I was wondering if someone could clear a few pros and cons up for me
The party I'm planning on running fresh after Irenicus' dungeon lacks an NPC mage, so that leaves it to Gorion's Ward to cast spells and pop xp for the party from scribing, but I'd like something a little more interesting than a straight up juju man
The two options I like the sound of would be a swashbuckler/mage levelled at 10 or a straight up skald. I'm aware that either of them would lag behind a specialist mage (hugely so with Edwin) so a little knowhow on which would fare better would be nice. Either way I was thinking of kitting him out with all the obligatories like the robe of Vecna, Metaspell and Dak'kon's Zerth Blade but I'm worried about the character's lack of high level spells early on in the game - being able to cast remove magic and identify does so much by way of work but I am also terribly fond of my Death spell and Fire Elemental and I'm eager to get it decently early on
The advantage of the skald is that he would gain levels in spell casting right on creation, although naturally wouldn't be as powerful as a sparkling new mage
Whereas I'm guessing the dual class wouldn't take long to catch up with the skald, but how far into the game would it take to catch up with the skald in spell casting, and more importantly which class would unlock level 6 spells first, eh? I feel like it might be easy to underestimate how fast a dual class can level
Thanks for your time
The party I'm planning on running fresh after Irenicus' dungeon lacks an NPC mage, so that leaves it to Gorion's Ward to cast spells and pop xp for the party from scribing, but I'd like something a little more interesting than a straight up juju man
The two options I like the sound of would be a swashbuckler/mage levelled at 10 or a straight up skald. I'm aware that either of them would lag behind a specialist mage (hugely so with Edwin) so a little knowhow on which would fare better would be nice. Either way I was thinking of kitting him out with all the obligatories like the robe of Vecna, Metaspell and Dak'kon's Zerth Blade but I'm worried about the character's lack of high level spells early on in the game - being able to cast remove magic and identify does so much by way of work but I am also terribly fond of my Death spell and Fire Elemental and I'm eager to get it decently early on
The advantage of the skald is that he would gain levels in spell casting right on creation, although naturally wouldn't be as powerful as a sparkling new mage
Whereas I'm guessing the dual class wouldn't take long to catch up with the skald, but how far into the game would it take to catch up with the skald in spell casting, and more importantly which class would unlock level 6 spells first, eh? I feel like it might be easy to underestimate how fast a dual class can level
Thanks for your time
0
Comments
Well, have you considered the Blade? For me it's a nice touch between spellcasting and some martial ability. Yes, no higher-level-spells, but higher level for those that scale (Skull trap etc).
Otherwise, I'd got with the Skald - more interesting class than the usual Thief/Mage.
If you're looking for novelty, class might not be the thing to change in the first place. I had a lot of fun creating a simple Fighter/Mage and then restricting myself to spells I never used. It was really novel, memorizing stuff like Ghoul Touch, Power Word: Sleep, Minor Globe of Invulnerability, and Cone of Cold, instead of Mirror Image, Invisbility, Stoneskin, and Spell Immunity. It forced me into a much different playstyle.
1) Don't be a Skald. A Skald is fine as a secondary caster, but later on you'll surely be wanting the higher-level spells, and Skalds (or any other type of Bard) never get beyond spell level 6, so s/he won't cut the mustard as your sole caster.
2) Don't go for a multi-class Fighter/Mage or Cleric/Mage either. Again they make fine secondary casters, and in this case they do eventually get to the high-level spells, but you'll nearly have finished the game by then, so their progression is too slow to be a good sole caster.
3) Do go for a dual-class into Mage if you don't fancy a pureclass Mage. Your suggestion of Swashbuckler(10)->Mage is good, although if s/he's going to end up as your sole Thief as well as being your sole arcane caster, then I might be tempted to hang on until Swashbuckler(12) before dualling to build up more thieving skills (since both would eventually be able to get to Mage level 30 at the end). Other Thieves can also dual into a Mage very effectively (as also can Fighters, etc.), but if Swashbuckler is the one that appeals to you, then go for it, it's a decent choice.
4) Don't be afraid to swap other NPCs in and out of your party on a temporary basis. It might be distinctly advantageous to delay the recruitment of one of your permanent party for a while, and instead temporarily include some other Mage while your protagonist is building up his Swashbuckler levels before dual-classing, and then after dual-classing you might instead need to include some other Thief temporarily until your protagonist gets his Swashbuckler levels back (i.e. until his Mage level exceeds his Swashbuckler level).
In BG2, it doesn't take long for a Mage to overtake a Bard in spell-power. Bards become able to cast level 6 spells at level 16, which requires 1,320,000 XP. Mages become able to cast level 6 spells at level 12, which requires 750,000 XP, to which you need to add the XP required for your Swashbuckler levels (160,000 for level 10 or 440,000 for level 12), but either way the Swashbuckler->Mage will get level 6 spells sooner than a Skald, and furthermore the Mage will have more spells-per-day of most of the lower spell levels by then.
What stage of the game is represented by those experience levels depends very much upon the order in which you choose to do things. If you rush off to rescue Imoen quickly, then you'll probably get to such levels in Chapter 5, i.e. the Underdark. On the other hand, if your strategy is to build as much experience as possible before setting off to rescue Imoen, then you'll probably get to those levels in Chapter 2/3, shortly before setting off for the rescue.
Strong early game, insane lategame, they'll get high level spells nearly as fast as a plain mage would, especially if dualed at level 7.
Swashbuckler Mage is not that appealing to me as it will hardly benefit from Swashbuckler bonuses lategame. If you want to go for a T=>M I would certainly consider Assassin=>M because the poison weapon combined with MMM and EB is awesome. Shadowdancer=>M is nice as well, because of Hide in Plain Sight which a mage could definitely use (See how OP staff of the magi is if you don't remove the invisibility component? Well, that's less OP but same idea, but feels more legit as you especially did something to get this advantage)
Furthermore, the Swashbuckler has two other useful advantages for dualling over other Thief kits. Firstly, being able to put a second proficiency point into weapons gives a further +1 to THAC0 and +2 to damage (so that's +3 to THAC0 and +4 to damage overall), which is pretty useful when the Mage is using physical weapons instead of casting (and of course there'll be many occasions when that's the case, e.g. when there's nothing useful left to cast, or when saving spells for the bigger battle around the next corner, etc.). Secondly, the Swashbuckler gets as many Thief skill points as an unkitted Thief (which other Thief kits don't), so s/he'll be better at Thieving, which is especially relevant if s/he's going to be the sole Thief as well as the sole Mage (which we don't know one way or the other, since @Zilegil didn't say who else is in the party).
Of course other Thief kits have their own advantages (as you've mentioned) as a base for dualling to Mage, but the specific advantages of a Swashbuckler->Mage make it a perfectly reasonable choice. Since that's what appeals to @Zilegil, I see no reason to advise against it.
@Zilegil - note that a Swashbuckler->Mage is often better off using throwing Daggers for a ranged weapon, since you can put ** in Daggers but only * in Sling or Bow proficiencies (although exactly how much advantage this might give depends upon your character's stats). Nevertheless, it'll also be wise to invest a proficiency point in Sbow or Xbow, for occasions (especially late-game) when special ammo is the right tool for the job.
The main reason charname's going to be my caster is that I wanted to limit the party to four (all the better if my mage is going to have some downtime, the other NPCs won't lose out on xp.)
My party loadout will be Dorn, Hexxat and Viconia. I'll probably add Sarevok when I get the chance as the party is looking a touch light on the tankyness
And @Arunsum Yeah, my current play through is a Kensai/Mage, they're great characters
But he did say he is "not too sharp with the game mechanics", which is why I posted what I think are the best T=>M duals, and why I'd dislike Swashbuckler=>Mage, but I did use the "I" pronoun, making it my opinion and nothing more.
@Zilegil If you plan on taking a full time thief, in our case Hexxat, then in your stead I'd definitely pick either a Fighter=>Mage (which would effectively be straight-off better swashbuckler mage since you won't need the Thief Skills (traps and lock pick), and you get MUCH more as a fighter=>Mage than as a swashbuckler=>mage) if you want to focus on the fighting aspect, or one of the duals I mentioned, if you want to focus on the thief aspect (i.e. discretion, invisibility etc...)
Pure Mage: no reason, Edwin is better
Thief/Mage: Already 3 of them in all variations
Wild Mage: Neera
That leaves you with Cleric/Mage (Aerie is bad), Bards (Haer is bad), Fighter/Mage and Sorcerer.
Bards are worse than F/M in most cases. The only exception I can think of is UAI with Blades giving you some interesting possibilities like Carsomyr in offensive spin or shields defensive spin. You still don't get too many high level spells.
Cleric/Mage is horrid, Cleric/Illusionist (gnome) is better but it takes you an eternity to get to the powerful spells and your fighting is subpar as well. Another problem is having a gigantic spell list of lower level spells that you have to shift threw every time you want to cast anything.
Kensai/Berserker -> Mage dual (dual at 9 or 13) is probably the best class in the game. Swashbuckler -> Mage is just weaker IMO. Gets thieving skills, a little bit more AC (largely irrelevant as the game goes on) but loses on Grand Mastery, HP and Thac0.
Sorcerer is very solid probably better than a pure mage if you don't mind micromanaging your scrolls.
Those "better", "worse", "horrid" and "subpar" are all subjective opinions, and each player can have his or her own view (and skills) on classes and kits.
For example, see https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/38312/the-party-of-spiders-no-reload-scs2-run/ by @semiticgod to check how to use a cleric/mage so that it could be the most powerful character ever.
Also, a more interesting alternative is not always the more powerful. I prefer non min-maxed characters and non popular powerful combination (a Kensai/Berserker -> Mage dual is one of those combinations I don't use) and to me, playing with these characters is more interesting than managing a powerful character.
Specifically Cleric/Mage: I'll agree that you usually don't want one of these as the main source of arcane power in your team, mainly due to needing a gazillion Breaches for stuff, but these things are POWERFUL. I'd call them the most defensive supportive option in the game, bar none: no other class can put Heals or Remove Paralysis into spell triggers, or instantly cast a Doom/Greater Malison/Chaos or disabler of choice to force a save or suck with -8 to the save. In my no-reloads that I've actually managed to get into BG2, Aerie is generally on the team and often the MVP just because of how many options she has, and ways to save people.
Also... Well, I'll probably grant that Mage/Fighter is stronger than the Blade until HLAs roll around, with the exception of the couple Bard-only items floating around, and they're pretty sweet IMO. The other advantage that Blades have over Mage/Fighters is that due to the Thief leveling curve, anything that scales off of caster level (Remove Magic!) and the durations are far superior for the Blade. Also, Dispel Magic doesn't affect Blade buffs nearly as much, though that's kind of moot if Spell Immunity: Abjuration is up.
Kensai -> Mage: The one major weakness in this build is the same that I've found with Kensai -> Druid, and the lack of shields hurts. I lost that no-reload to the Kuo-Tao because I couldn't use the Reflection Shield and got paralyzed. Plus, due to the kit, you'll be wanting to get in close and personal, but... if you're the only arcane caster... Being in a place to actually use most spells undisrupted is going to be a problem. For a sole caster, I'd actually prefer a straight up Fighter -> Mage for grandmastery in a ranged weapon. Berserker -> Mage I'll grant is probably one of the strongest builds, but that's because Berserker Rage grants far too many immunities.
All that said and done, for a primary caster CHARNAME with five other mundanes and/or divine casters, I'd prefer a Sorcerer or Mage kit, with a nod towards Fighter -> Mage as a possibility. Swashbuckler -> Mage is also decent, but IMO the fighter base is simply stronger if you don't need trap finding or lock picking, since it grants access to all shields, all helms, grandmastery, all weapons, more HP, better THAC0...