@Shando It could have been a STR bonus (encumbrance + sling/throwing dagger STR bonus) . Or even a CHA one to nudge people towards maxing CHA. Though eventual regen is not bad when you travel between places.
I am not sure what they could have done with DD though. In 3E PnP it's a warrior PrC, mostly taken by Bards to get free bonuses, it gives you NO casting progression.
Perhaps they could have given it a fire damage bonus, like the Rune of Flame in Icewind Dale II.
in NWN (3e) we used DD with warrior of some sort even paladin but warrior\bard\DD gave you best resaults as you had enough STR and feats to get dev crit feat (means each critical hit will kill your enemy) at level 21 (first epic level in the game).
Also in NWN 1 the DD class is actually Red DD and get red wings at level 9
in EE games by beamdog he is solid stronger sorc as it seems. I've found it's breath weapon pretty good to clear out trolls when you are out of fire\acid and it clears room pretty well.
More breath weapon uses as you level up would have been good. It's easily added by EE Keeper if that's your thing.
Its tempting to use one as a tank with the higher con bonus and d6 hp, so an inate ability to cast stoneskin once a day would free up a level 4 spell slot for something else.
Shapeshifting to a mini dragon would just be downright awesome...
I wish we could have chosen between various dragons and get a breath weapon and resistances accordingly. Playing a red dragon disciple kinda force you to be evil (red dragons are evil) and that's a pity. Besides we already have too much fire damage as spells and little enough to fight enemies that resist fire. I would certainly have loved a dragon form HLA as well, one that evolves with level, from Wyrmling to real Dragon. And that you cannot maintain for long... Well I may try and mod that, maybe.
Say what you like about their combat abilities, I've never had more fun with stealth in an Infinity Engine game than traipsing through Firewine Ruins and taking out the Ogre Mage at the end of it, one carefully timed backstab at a time...
I don't want to derail your thread by relating all the amazing things a Shadowdancer can do (most of which involve dancing in the shadows), but I will say this: For what the Shadowdancer is designed to do, it does it very well. It requires a great deal more patience than some other kits, but past a certain level there's no reason the kit can't solo most of the game.
Typically I'd qualify Shadowdancer a great kit because it is very unique and pleasant to play with huge possibilities, while dragon disciple is a great idea but because it was not worked enough it ends up being another meh kit. Dark Moon Monk and Sun Soul Monk are very good kits, shadowdancer is great, and dragon disciple could be great if more work was done on it
I suppose when you're blind, EVERYONE is a Shadowdancer.
In EE, you can use Hide in Shadows even when enemies are nearby, if you're blinded. You can also set traps in plain sight. Both checks are based on the player's field of vision, not actual proximity, so a blind character would have to be right next to an enemy in order to fail to hide in shadows or set a trap. A blind thief is a bit like a Shadowdancer, but with worse AC and THAC0, a restricted field of vision, more skill points, and traps.
Blindness is especially useful for Fighter/Thief backstabbers, as the blindness THAC0 penalties aren't so onerous for them, and Bounty Hunters, as it lets them set their special traps right in the middle of a fight. You can even rest or save with Blindness, though other party members can interfere with this if they are not blind.
@semiticgod - blimey, I'd never noticed that! But I suppose I don't get blinded terribly often, playing unmodded.
Thinking about it, it's quite right that stealth and trapping are based on field of vision rather than simple proximity ... but of course, it ought to be the enemy's field of vision, not your own.
@semiticgod I always abuse that in the Irenicus dongeon, every times the Mephits blind me, I can hide in the shadows.
Still, I agree that the Shadowdancer is extremely good, in my opinion it is the strongest kit of the game (not class, or class combo, just kit.) and it was never nerfed actually.
It's simple, if the enemy cannot see invisibility innately like Liches for example, you cannot lose. HiPS alone will cheese through 99% of the game even with SCS installed.
I agree that additional uses of the breath weapon would have been really nice.
I looked into the DD class yesterday and I would say that the most interesting thing about it is that nearly each level gives you something (other than spells).
Also worth noting is that it enables gnomes to become Sorcerers, and thus Dragon Disciples.
Great, really great. I'd only slightly adapt it if I were to make it in-game: Not add the familiar and -2 casting time thing. I'd add the slashing damage weapon as a special ability that would last for 1/2/3/4/5 rounds and be a normal/+1/+2/+3/+4 at level 1/5/10/15/20 for example with the same damages, that would in addition grant an additionnal APR as well for example, making it a decent lategame option as well. As for the ancestor, one could add some more, namely gem dragons, to allow neutral alignment. As for their breath weapon: Amethyst ones have a blast of concussive force as their weapon. Hence crushing damage would fit, see how we adapt it. Remains to see damage resistance (limited crushing damage resistance maybe (10-40%) based on level ) Cristal ones have a blinding ray of light. Magic damage (Much like holy smite)? And magic damage resistance Emerald/Saphir ones cast a cone of sonic energy. Just like Amethyst ones, with piercing damage and resistance instead of crushing. Topaz ones: dehydrating breath, i.e magic damage in BG2 (Horrid Wilting). Magic damage resistance as well.
This way we can cover every alignment and element except poison I guess.
The Dragon Disciple could probably have been more viable in melee if the Constitution increases had been Stength increases instead and if their minimum Strength score at chargen was raised to 18.
DD works well in 3rd Edition and later as it is a prestige on top of other classes, allowing for interesting combat/spell-casting gameplay (or just a STR boost for fighter-types). That does not really work for BG as dual-classing is restricted (by the engine) to existing multi-class combos, so no dual-class from Dragon Disciple, which is a shame. DD -> Monk could be the ultimate poverty play combo
As for DD as a stronger sorc? I think the consensus is that it is weaker, as you really miss having extra castings of spells. There is a sweet spot, around level 4->12ish where the physical survivability is a good trade-off for the lost spells, but then the new features slow down, while the missing spell levels are increasingly powerful. (Likewise, at 1st, you don't gain enough to offset even the poor magery of low levels, but it compensates rapidly.)
DD rocks in BGEE, and loses out badly in BG2EE. It would be nice to have something extra kick in towards level 20 - past 20 everything is HLA anyway. Alternatively, it might be nice for the AC, breath weapon and CON bonuses to continue - they are not the important attributes that will break a sorcerer, but would feel like you were still evolving as a dragon through to the end game. Or even allowing Sorcs to grow into a retcon of the fighter CON bonus, so that the bonus could mean something without pushing all the way to regen.
That said, enough people enjoy playing the class as it is, so I think it has been a success, and further meddling is unlikely at this point.
@GreenWarlock DD still rocks in BG2EE, because extra spell castings becomes less relevant when you get access to Project Image. I hardly ever use all the spells of all of my project image as either a vanilla sorcerer or a DD. Its bonus are still good, CON bonus giving handy extra HPs on a not-so-good roll, fire resistance is big, it protects very well from many offensive spells and allows you to cast fireballs on yourself without taking damage, and the breath weapon is mechanically very good as it bypasses magic protections.
![:\](https://forums.beamdog.com/resources/emoji/confused.png ":\")
Comments
It could have been a STR bonus (encumbrance + sling/throwing dagger STR bonus) . Or even a CHA one to nudge people towards maxing CHA.
Though eventual regen is not bad when you travel between places.
I am not sure what they could have done with DD though.
In 3E PnP it's a warrior PrC, mostly taken by Bards to get free bonuses, it gives you NO casting progression.
Perhaps they could have given it a fire damage bonus, like the Rune of Flame in Icewind Dale II.
Also in NWN 1 the DD class is actually Red DD and get red wings at level 9
in EE games by beamdog he is solid stronger sorc as it seems.
I've found it's breath weapon pretty good to clear out trolls when you are out of fire\acid and it clears room pretty well.
Then again, my character would've never once been in human form >.>
Its tempting to use one as a tank with the higher con bonus and d6 hp, so an inate ability to cast stoneskin once a day would free up a level 4 spell slot for something else.
Shapeshifting to a mini dragon would just be downright awesome...
to add more "drake" stuff.
wings buffet
Besides we already have too much fire damage as spells and little enough to fight enemies that resist fire. I would certainly have loved a dragon form HLA as well, one that evolves with level, from Wyrmling to real Dragon. And that you cannot maintain for long...
Well I may try and mod that, maybe.
i think they didnt over devloped the kit, because they didnt want EVERYONE playing the same class.
Nerf?
i think the kit lost the main idea of it.
but...
dunno... never played a thief in bg.
Dark Moon Monk and Sun Soul Monk are very good kits, shadowdancer is great, and dragon disciple could be great if more work was done on it
Blindness is especially useful for Fighter/Thief backstabbers, as the blindness THAC0 penalties aren't so onerous for them, and Bounty Hunters, as it lets them set their special traps right in the middle of a fight. You can even rest or save with Blindness, though other party members can interfere with this if they are not blind.
Thinking about it, it's quite right that stealth and trapping are based on field of vision rather than simple proximity ... but of course, it ought to be the enemy's field of vision, not your own.
Still, I agree that the Shadowdancer is extremely good, in my opinion it is the strongest kit of the game (not class, or class combo, just kit.) and it was never nerfed actually.
It's simple, if the enemy cannot see invisibility innately like Liches for example, you cannot lose.
HiPS alone will cheese through 99% of the game even with SCS installed.
I agree that additional uses of the breath weapon would have been really nice.
Also worth noting is that it enables gnomes to become Sorcerers, and thus Dragon Disciples.
I'd only slightly adapt it if I were to make it in-game:
Not add the familiar and -2 casting time thing.
I'd add the slashing damage weapon as a special ability that would last for 1/2/3/4/5 rounds and be a normal/+1/+2/+3/+4 at level 1/5/10/15/20 for example with the same damages, that would in addition grant an additionnal APR as well for example, making it a decent lategame option as well.
As for the ancestor, one could add some more, namely gem dragons, to allow neutral alignment. As for their breath weapon:
Amethyst ones have a blast of concussive force as their weapon. Hence crushing damage would fit, see how we adapt it. Remains to see damage resistance (limited crushing damage resistance maybe (10-40%) based on level )
Cristal ones have a blinding ray of light. Magic damage (Much like holy smite)? And magic damage resistance
Emerald/Saphir ones cast a cone of sonic energy. Just like Amethyst ones, with piercing damage and resistance instead of crushing.
Topaz ones: dehydrating breath, i.e magic damage in BG2 (Horrid Wilting). Magic damage resistance as well.
This way we can cover every alignment and element except poison I guess.
As for DD as a stronger sorc? I think the consensus is that it is weaker, as you really miss having extra castings of spells. There is a sweet spot, around level 4->12ish where the physical survivability is a good trade-off for the lost spells, but then the new features slow down, while the missing spell levels are increasingly powerful. (Likewise, at 1st, you don't gain enough to offset even the poor magery of low levels, but it compensates rapidly.)
DD rocks in BGEE, and loses out badly in BG2EE. It would be nice to have something extra kick in towards level 20 - past 20 everything is HLA anyway. Alternatively, it might be nice for the AC, breath weapon and CON bonuses to continue - they are not the important attributes that will break a sorcerer, but would feel like you were still evolving as a dragon through to the end game. Or even allowing Sorcs to grow into a retcon of the fighter CON bonus, so that the bonus could mean something without pushing all the way to regen.
That said, enough people enjoy playing the class as it is, so I think it has been a success, and further meddling is unlikely at this point.
Its bonus are still good, CON bonus giving handy extra HPs on a not-so-good roll, fire resistance is big, it protects very well from many offensive spells and allows you to cast fireballs on yourself without taking damage, and the breath weapon is mechanically very good as it bypasses magic protections.