@Demivrgvs Bhaalspawn blood, hell she could've become a sorceress and it wouldn't have been implausible.
@DragonKing then why almost all Bhaalspawns aren't mages? The bloodline can suggest some innate magic powers (and great stats! lol ) but it doesn't necessarily imply becoming a wizard.
P.S Sorceress would be plausible yes, so could have been mage if properly handled (I think BG1 NPC mod is a littlestep toward it) but neither perfectly suit imo. Leaving aside how stupid the dual class system is in terms of roleplaying...
@Demivrgvs The same reason sarevok isn't, they chose to develop OTHER skills. Being a Sorcerer just means you have innate ability talent with magic, it doesn't mean that you don't have to practice or hone those talents.
Also based on what I learned in both Amn and TOB, not all bhaalspawn are created equal somes magical infinity are stronger than others. Which explains why Imeon took so long to develop.
I made this comparison before and do it again here. A Sorcerer and Wizard are like a prodigy and a average joe. The prodigy born with the talent while the average joe has to work to achieve it, but if the prodigy doesn't constantly working with the talent he was born with, it will eventually fade before or after the average Joe surpasses him.
Funny thing really, one of my closest friends was a gifted artist, could draw anything he saw without hesitation and with ease. While all I had was a how to draw anime book, an innate voice telling me was a failure as a artist, and a dream. We went seperate ways and years passed on, and once we finally found each other 6+ years later; I had learned that his large folder of art had been stolen from him years ago, and he hadn't/couldn't force himself to draw a thing since. While I on the other hand gave up on the idea of walking any career path other than that of an artist, drew nonestop, spent hundreds on art books, and put myself in life crippling debt just to go to art school. What happened after all that, now I draw better than him. Even inspired him to pick up the pencil again and attempt drawing.
My point being, I find it harder to believe that everyone, even bhaalspawn that has the capability to do magic, hones their magical prowess. If that wasn't the case then why is their a whole city full of bhaalspawn who couldn't protect themselves instead of being fluent in some form of combat instead of requiring charname help to free the city? It's harder to believe than being half bhaalspawn and half Elven/orc... It just doesn't work that way. If you're already half 1 thing, and you add another, your 1/3 now.
Some people, even bhaalspawn don't care or find interest in it and rather learn a different trade/craft
@dragonking: " While a fighter might not have been as noble as say a paladin; fighters/warriors were respected ad noble in many cultures around the world." Yes, I agree and that's why I said that a fighter is both a fit and not a fit since fighters are such a broad class that it can hardly be seen as a unifrom group of people. Fighters can be everything from kings to thugs. I, however, apply this thinking on all classes.
About bard being non-noble (@empyrial among others); first of all, as have been discussed in other threads; there can be a difference between class and profession. Meaning, someone can be a 'class' yet not work as it. Just because you're a trained mage doesn't mean you have to open up your own scroll shop or live isolated in an ivory tower, or in this case, just because you're a bard doesn't mean you have to sing in shady taverns on the hillsides.
If Nalia had been trained as a bard, it could have been due to the fact that many young women in medieval times were trained to become good wives. They learned instruments and singing as a way to entertain their family, friends and potential suitors. I guess many young women were trained in these arts weven without really having an interrest in them themselves. So, one can be trained to sing very well and play instruments even without being charismatic. High INT (ability to read, learn) helps I guess, but is not a prereq.
This is all "IMHO" of course. I am one of those ppl who split between class and profession, but I know not everyone agrees with that. I can very well imagine a bard (class) being a thief (profession) just as well as being an entertainer, a fighter (class) being a noble king (profession.. sorta) or just a shopkeeper (profession), a ranger (class) being a ranger (profession) but also a hunter, trapper or even a highwayman (professions).
@Demivrgvs Did you actually make that edit before or after my post? Because it literally looks like you set up a defense it my response.
@Skatan I agree, it can but look at many cultures from Japanese to European, the Noble warrior portion usually dealt with family and bloodline, which is my thugs weren't celebrated with the same respect as the seasoned veteran, even though the both were soldiers at 1 possible point.
Look at Native American and African tribes, all the warriors were celebrated, and not just based on bloodlines. I also agree with the operation of class and profession.
A Sorcerer and Wizard are like a protégé and a average joe. The protégé is born with the talent while the average joe has to work to achieve it, but if the protégé doesn't constantly working with the talent he was born with, it will eventually fade before or after the average Joe surpasses him.
That's a hilarious malapropism, but I'm guessing that you mean "prodigy" rather than "protégé".
@Demivrgvs Did you actually make that edit before or after my post? Because it literally looks like you set up a defense it my response.
@DragonKing Look at the time, I edited 20 minutes before your post. Anyway, I wasn't trying to build any defense, just giving my opinion.
I think bhaalspawn blood may be could be used to justify Imoen becoming a sorcerer, but you would have to build something around it (what BG1 NPC tried to do). You cannot just say "she's a Bhaalspawn THUS she's a mage or sorcerer".
@elminster I had no idea Sarevok was intended to be a spellcaster. Which is your source? Regardless, he's not a spellcaster in-game, and it doesn't change my point.
I didn't say he was intended to be a spellcaster in the game. But in the novelizations (which is the canon account of the series) he is at least partly one.
A Sorcerer and Wizard are like a protégé and a average joe. The protégé is born with the talent while the average joe has to work to achieve it, but if the protégé doesn't constantly working with the talent he was born with, it will eventually fade before or after the average Joe surpasses him.
That's a hilarious malapropism, but I'm guessing that you mean "prodigy" rather than "protégé".
@Gallowglass I have dyslexia and it was 2:40 in the morning so you can sue me sir!
@Demivrgvs Did you actually make that edit before or after my post? Because it literally looks like you set up a defense it my response.
@DragonKing Look at the time, I edited 20 minutes before your post. Anyway, I wasn't trying to build any defense, just giving my opinion.
I think bhaalspawn blood may be could be used to justify Imoen becoming a sorcerer, but you would have to build something around it (what BG1 NPC tried to do). You cannot just say "she's a Bhaalspawn THUS she's a mage or sorcerer".
@Demivrgvs You asked me why isn't EVERY OTHER bhaalspawn is not a mage and I gave you that answer, you didn't ask me why wasn't imoen a mage in BG or how she just magically changes with no explanation. So ya...
@Skatan I can get the difference between class and profession but I feel that the two are usually more closely related than not. I just felt that being a bard wouldn't have meshed well with her personality too as, like a cleric, doing most things bard related involves a more emotional connection which I feel Nalia lacks with the people she's trying to help. I also feel she would have resisted the "noblewoman trying to attract a suitor with suitably soft skills" archetype.
I just felt that being a bard wouldn't have meshed well with her personality too as, like a cleric, doing most things bard related involves a more emotional connection which I feel Nalia lacks with the people she's trying to help. I also feel she would have resisted the "noblewoman trying to attract a suitor with suitably soft skills" archetype.
I'm curious, what do you mean by "doing most things bard related involves a more emotional connection"?
Honestly, I love Nalia and I think that she is a well rounded character with lots of interaction and even a powerful item.
I disagree with her levels, though. Being cloistered inside a fortress made Charname a 1st level mage, while Nalia who has never been on any adventure in her entire life has the power of a 9th level mage (and a few thief perks, too) . That doesn't make sense.
Honestly, I love Nalia and I think that she is a well rounded character with lots of interaction and even a powerful item.
I disagree with her levels, though. Being cloistered inside a fortress made Charname a 1st level mage, while Nalia who has never been on any adventure in her entire life has the power of a 9th level mage (and a few thief perks, too) . That doesn't make sense.
She did sneak out and wander around Athkatla, though, so I wouldn't say that she'd never adventured. Nine levels seems like a bit much, I'll admit, but it's better than her being useless.
My opinion, as a former DM, is that levels, like hit points, are "abstract". Nalia is midlevel because your party is midlevel. Nothing more, nothing less. If it was a P&P campaign and Nalia was a "true" NPC (DM controlled), her level would never be divulged to the players anyway.
My opinion, as a former DM, is that levels, like hit points, are "abstract". Nalia is midlevel because your party is midlevel. Nothing more, nothing less. If it was a P&P campaign and Nalia was a "true" NPC (DM controlled), her level would never be divulged to the players anyway.
.. but when she start slinging spells, you'd know at least fairly well based on the spell levels.
And about her starting level; it's not unique to Nalia. Many NPC's in BG2 probably have a bit too high starting level, and some may have too low (Keldorn?). Levels in the game are used for balance rather than RP reasons and it's hard to argue against that.
Balance and role-playing go hand in hand. The story comes first, players shouldn't have to worry what "level" every NPC they meet is, or how many Hit Dice each enemy has. It's the Dungeon Masters job to ensure everything is in Balance so the players can have fun Role Playing. You can consider the game engine to be your DM.
I just felt that being a bard wouldn't have meshed well with her personality too as, like a cleric, doing most things bard related involves a more emotional connection which I feel Nalia lacks with the people she's trying to help. I also feel she would have resisted the "noblewoman trying to attract a suitor with suitably soft skills" archetype.
I'm curious, what do you mean by "doing most things bard related involves a more emotional connection"?
Being a bard isn't just being a music player sitting in the corner playing a melody and singing. It's a lot more like a live performance today. You've got hecklers you have to deal with, you've got to gauge the crowd's reaction to your performance, and you've got to be able to properly work a crowd. To me, Nalia doesn't seem like the type who would handle many of those things well. She's too reserved.
Honestly, I love Nalia and I think that she is a well rounded character with lots of interaction and even a powerful item.
I disagree with her levels, though. Being cloistered inside a fortress made Charname a 1st level mage, while Nalia who has never been on any adventure in her entire life has the power of a 9th level mage (and a few thief perks, too) . That doesn't make sense.
But the Charname wasn't "cloistered". Neither Nalia.
The whole idea that Charname is a level 1 when the game starts is what doesn't make any sense.
First off, Candlekeep is famous, visitors come from all over the world. And as we see in the first chapter, Charname interacts with them.
There's an attached garrison, there's farms, there's a temple ect. Charname has free rein to go anywhere he/she likes.
The monks/Gorion whoever would have taught magic, soldiers fighting, innkeeper thieving. Candlekeep is like a large town. And a town moreover that has masses of interaction with the outside world.
Castles/Keeps/Fortresses were the towns, loads of people worked in and around them. It's where visitors headed, it's where the community was based. The "rare book for entry" is a plot device, it falls apart the moment you see cows and soldiers wandering around and instead of skeletons, people who need food and supplies delivered regularly.
Just outside the D'Arnis keep and Candlekeep, there would be a village/town up against the walls. People who would be servicing the castle, farming, blacksmithing, needed crafts ect. Near enough so when there was trouble, they could retreat behind the walls.
@UnderstandMouseMagic , I understand that both Nalia and Charname had not been literally cloistered , but by AD&D rules to reach level 9 you need to go through dozens of adventures. Level 5 spells make you either a powerful hero or villain , and it's not achieved by simply leafing through tomes.
It's like graduating in a good college - you may have plenty of potential, but real experience comes up only in the real world.
Initially, the game's writers had intended for Imoen to die in Spellhold [...]
So, essentially, blame Imoen. [...].
poor Imoen, she wasn't supposed to be a recruitable character in BG, she wasn't supposed to last long in BGII:SoA... and to think that she's one of my favorite characters! Blame Imoen for being... Imoen!
poor Imoen, she wasn't supposed to be a recruitable character in BG, she wasn't supposed to last long in BGII:SoA... and to think that she's one of my favorite characters! Blame Imoen for being... Imoen!
So I guess that means that in the first game, she should have been replaced with a Doppelganger like the others and attack you, and in the second, she was supposed to turn into the Slayer and attack you. Go figure.
Comments
P.S Sorceress would be plausible yes, so could have been mage if properly handled (I think BG1 NPC mod is a littlestep toward it) but neither perfectly suit imo. Leaving aside how stupid the dual class system is in terms of roleplaying...
The same reason sarevok isn't, they chose to develop OTHER skills. Being a Sorcerer just means you have innate ability talent with magic, it doesn't mean that you don't have to practice or hone those talents.
Also based on what I learned in both Amn and TOB, not all bhaalspawn are created equal somes magical infinity are stronger than others. Which explains why Imeon took so long to develop.
I made this comparison before and do it again here. A Sorcerer and Wizard are like a prodigy and a average joe. The prodigy born with the talent while the average joe has to work to achieve it, but if the prodigy doesn't constantly working with the talent he was born with, it will eventually fade before or after the average Joe surpasses him.
Funny thing really, one of my closest friends was a gifted artist, could draw anything he saw without hesitation and with ease. While all I had was a how to draw anime book, an innate voice telling me was a failure as a artist, and a dream. We went seperate ways and years passed on, and once we finally found each other 6+ years later; I had learned that his large folder of art had been stolen from him years ago, and he hadn't/couldn't force himself to draw a thing since. While I on the other hand gave up on the idea of walking any career path other than that of an artist, drew nonestop, spent hundreds on art books, and put myself in life crippling debt just to go to art school. What happened after all that, now I draw better than him. Even inspired him to pick up the pencil again and attempt drawing.
My point being, I find it harder to believe that everyone, even bhaalspawn that has the capability to do magic, hones their magical prowess. If that wasn't the case then why is their a whole city full of bhaalspawn who couldn't protect themselves instead of being fluent in some form of combat instead of requiring charname help to free the city? It's harder to believe than being half bhaalspawn and half Elven/orc... It just doesn't work that way. If you're already half 1 thing, and you add another, your 1/3 now.
Some people, even bhaalspawn don't care or find interest in it and rather learn a different trade/craft
Yes, I agree and that's why I said that a fighter is both a fit and not a fit since fighters are such a broad class that it can hardly be seen as a unifrom group of people. Fighters can be everything from kings to thugs. I, however, apply this thinking on all classes.
About bard being non-noble (@empyrial among others); first of all, as have been discussed in other threads; there can be a difference between class and profession. Meaning, someone can be a 'class' yet not work as it. Just because you're a trained mage doesn't mean you have to open up your own scroll shop or live isolated in an ivory tower, or in this case, just because you're a bard doesn't mean you have to sing in shady taverns on the hillsides.
If Nalia had been trained as a bard, it could have been due to the fact that many young women in medieval times were trained to become good wives. They learned instruments and singing as a way to entertain their family, friends and potential suitors. I guess many young women were trained in these arts weven without really having an interrest in them themselves. So, one can be trained to sing very well and play instruments even without being charismatic. High INT (ability to read, learn) helps I guess, but is not a prereq.
This is all "IMHO" of course. I am one of those ppl who split between class and profession, but I know not everyone agrees with that. I can very well imagine a bard (class) being a thief (profession) just as well as being an entertainer, a fighter (class) being a noble king (profession.. sorta) or just a shopkeeper (profession), a ranger (class) being a ranger (profession) but also a hunter, trapper or even a highwayman (professions).
Did you actually make that edit before or after my post? Because it literally looks like you set up a defense it my response.
@Skatan
I agree, it can but look at many cultures from Japanese to European, the Noble warrior portion usually dealt with family and bloodline, which is my thugs weren't celebrated with the same respect as the seasoned veteran, even though the both were soldiers at 1 possible point.
Look at Native American and African tribes, all the warriors were celebrated, and not just based on bloodlines. I also agree with the operation of class and profession.
I think bhaalspawn blood may be could be used to justify Imoen becoming a sorcerer, but you would have to build something around it (what BG1 NPC tried to do). You cannot just say "she's a Bhaalspawn THUS she's a mage or sorcerer".
@elminster I had no idea Sarevok was intended to be a spellcaster. Which is your source? Regardless, he's not a spellcaster in-game, and it doesn't change my point.
I have dyslexia and it was 2:40 in the morning so you can sue me sir!
@elminster actually that's news to me since I've never read that novels
You asked me why isn't EVERY OTHER bhaalspawn is not a mage and I gave you that answer, you didn't ask me why wasn't imoen a mage in BG or how she just magically changes with no explanation. So ya...
I disagree with her levels, though. Being cloistered inside a fortress made Charname a 1st level mage, while Nalia who has never been on any adventure in her entire life has the power of a 9th level mage (and a few thief perks, too) . That doesn't make sense.
And about her starting level; it's not unique to Nalia. Many NPC's in BG2 probably have a bit too high starting level, and some may have too low (Keldorn?). Levels in the game are used for balance rather than RP reasons and it's hard to argue against that.
Edit: missed a word.
Don't derail this topic with your common sense!!
Neither Nalia.
The whole idea that Charname is a level 1 when the game starts is what doesn't make any sense.
First off, Candlekeep is famous, visitors come from all over the world. And as we see in the first chapter, Charname interacts with them.
There's an attached garrison, there's farms, there's a temple ect.
Charname has free rein to go anywhere he/she likes.
The monks/Gorion whoever would have taught magic, soldiers fighting, innkeeper thieving.
Candlekeep is like a large town.
And a town moreover that has masses of interaction with the outside world.
Castles/Keeps/Fortresses were the towns, loads of people worked in and around them. It's where visitors headed, it's where the community was based.
The "rare book for entry" is a plot device, it falls apart the moment you see cows and soldiers wandering around and instead of skeletons, people who need food and supplies delivered regularly.
Just outside the D'Arnis keep and Candlekeep, there would be a village/town up against the walls. People who would be servicing the castle, farming, blacksmithing, needed crafts ect.
Near enough so when there was trouble, they could retreat behind the walls.
It's like graduating in a good college - you may have plenty of potential, but real experience comes up only in the real world.