Lets talk Nalia de'Arnise...for the millionth time!
DragonKing
Member Posts: 1,979
So a few months ago, I ran another play (didn't finish the game of course), because I wanted to try out a Nalia romance mod (liked the mod it really felt like the character to me). So, blah blah blah, what are some changes that you all would make to her?
My thoughts,
Firstly, WHY IS SHE A MAGE/THIEF? Thief I can understand do to who she has associated herself with, but is there any logical lore reason why she knows magic in general? Plus, don't we have enough mage/thieves? Hell, don't we have enough mages? She couldn't have been some type of unique thief class? A few people wanted her changed to a sorcerer class, but even that doesn't make much sense to me... but i guess it makes more sense than a mage/thief. Hell, I would find a fighter/thief more believable then either sorcerer or mage.
Edit
Damn word trip
My thoughts,
Firstly, WHY IS SHE A MAGE/THIEF? Thief I can understand do to who she has associated herself with, but is there any logical lore reason why she knows magic in general? Plus, don't we have enough mage/thieves? Hell, don't we have enough mages? She couldn't have been some type of unique thief class? A few people wanted her changed to a sorcerer class, but even that doesn't make much sense to me... but i guess it makes more sense than a mage/thief. Hell, I would find a fighter/thief more believable then either sorcerer or mage.
Edit
Damn word trip
Post edited by DragonKing on
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Comments
I think she'd make a good bard. She'd have the pick-pockets to represent her secret rogue life, the magic to represent her noble life, and on top of that, nobles usually have more knowledge about literature, music, and the arts in general. Maybe she goes out on the streets to pickpocket the rich and give to the poor, or sing and read stories to children. Add some silly banters with Haer'Dalis, maybe a funny convo about her admiration of the "little people" and their performances at his playhouse. And it might do a better job at explaining why she can't just take over the fiefdom after her father is killed. "Everyone looks at me like a fool, not a leader. I'm afraid I'd have to agree with them." Or something like that.
Perhaps I sense some EEKeepering in my future...
Her thief levels to me are representative more of her rebellious, free-spirited nature than an actual proclivity for stealing things. Some Robin-Hood mentality in there, to be sure, but she's not going to become a career criminal, even for the good of others. Being a full thief just wouldn't fit with her character, to me anyway.
And she sure isn't a fighter, is she.
There are interesting options to expand on her in creative ways, though. I could imagine, for example, editing her to be a pure thief at the start of the game, and then make her something else over the course of the story (maybe after witnessing the death of her father?). I could, for example, imagine a clerical career - Cleric of Ilmater, maybe? Or you *could* argue for her going a more fighter-y route, sort of as a revenge reaction to her father's violent death (and what caused it all); this could for example be inspired by CHARNAME's presence, showing her that sometimes you just need the muscle to get things done.
I'm all for creative editing of characters, and there are many options. If you feel something doesn't fit well as it is - change it! We have the luxury in this game of it being relatively easy to do even for novices. Just get EEKeeper, and you can explore some creative space on your own!
Nalia's role as a Mage does go strangely unacknowledged by the game's writing until ToB, and I agree that that is a bit strange. Her Thief levels are discussed as the means by which she managed to avoid being caught when she was sneaking out of the royal quarters of De'Arnise Keep, and she also has a conversation with Yoshimo regarding her ability to disable traps. As a Mage, I assume the intention might have again been to incline her into a stronger role of rebellion against the rule of the Cowled Wizards, and this was withheld from her in the later stages of the game when Imoen's imprisonment by the Cowled Wizards became a significant part of her character. Nalia has had access all her life to a comprehensive collection of literature so it is conceivable that she was also encouraged to learn magic much like Imoen leans back upon her Candlekeep background to justify her Mage levels, so there is also that.
So, essentially, blame Imoen.
PS. In terms of having enough Mages in the roster, you would have to recruit them all iirc in order to get 6 party members (Edwin, Jan Jansen, Imoen, Nalia, Aerie), so one might argue there aren't so many: at least not as many as there are fighting types. Again taking the original layout of the NPC roster into account, Nalia is the only non-evil Mage who solely gains levels in the class, so this works to her merit - even, as I have read it, after they reintroduced Imoen. A lot of people seem to opt for her on the basis that Imoen falls behind in levels during her imprisonment.
Apart from the idea that she learned it to rebel against the cowl wizards, I don't agree with the whole magic = sign of nobility thing. Magic isn't just some book that is bought and instantly learned through reading. It's something that one dedicates their life to, a craft that require years of tireless study to hone, unless your a sorcerer
Looking at her upbringing alone, she took more after her mother with her ideals and ideology and gave no real reasoning that magic played any part in her helping the poor. Based on her auntie attitude alone, I don't feel she would've been able to get away with the amount of concentration and study magic required in the keep.
Magic is not really a necessity to being a nobel after all, I don't deny some study it, if I remember correctly, the guy that kidnaps her did use it, but was also part of the government that controls the magic usage in all of amn.
Edit,
But this was actually a topic meant on discussing how would you change her mechanically.
BG doesn't offer any class that feels more 'noble' than others except for Paladin, and she would't really fit as that. What other classes could be used for her considering her background?
Single class thief? No, as mentioned and elaborated above by @Lord_Tansheron, it doesn't really fit her perfectly either. Neither of the kits is a perfect fit, but maybe, maybe a swashbuckler could have been an option. A swashie with fancy clothes and a 'rapier' could have been a decent fit since the whole backstabbing thing doesn't suit her at all. It's a stretch though, since it would still mean she would be a singleclass thief.
*edit: I know rapiers don't exist in BG, I meant it as her using more nimble weapons like when fencing rather than a huge twohander for cleaving skulls.
Single class mage? Yeah, could fit. As mentioned above by @recklessheart it could fit her upbringing in a sheltered and pampered environment.
Fighter? Well, anyone can be a fighter and it both fits and don't fit considering. It doesn't fit well though with her quest, dialogue and story.
Ranger? Yeah, it might fit to some extent mechanically. She could have been trained to some extent with archery. It could have been a 'noble way' to spend your childhood, shooting arrows in the courtyard and roaming your vast estate. She's also protective of her people, which correlates with the ranger ethos. That would though, mechanically, have made her a warrior class. I think an Archer could have been a decent option.
Sorcerer/barbarian? Naah, doesn't feel like her at all.
Cleric? Yeah maybe. It could have been a decent fit with her personality actually.
But I actually agree most with @Nonnahswriter who describe it very elegantly, a bard would be the best fit both thematically, story- and personality-wise. I haden't thought of it before I read Nonnah's post, but now that I've read I concur.
Of course it takes more than just knowing how to read and having access to a library, but it's far more likely someone of noble birth will find that sort of lifestyle appealing than someone poor who has to worry about survival every day. Talent etc. of course plays a role; Nalia may very well have that, too, in addition to everything else.
In the end, how you spin the story is largely up to you. Much information is inferred and cursory at best, the details can go either way. I find that not a shortcoming of the game's storytelling, but rather an invitation to craft the finer parts of the story yourself. Isn't that much more interesting than having everything ready-made down to the minutiae?
Thief:
When Nalia was young, she would learn to sneak out of the keep and pick the odd lock or two. Hence her thief levels.
Mage:
Since she was quite bright (17 Intelligence) and had the money to spend on a magical education, she started learning magic, which would have been just as useful for her purposes--namely, getting away from the keep, and keeping herself safe when prowling around the poorer and less well-policed areas in Athkatla (the places where she'd be in danger would be the same places where the Cowled Wizards would not be paying as close attention). Hence her mage levels.
Thief/Mage:
Thief because she had to sneak and lockpick her way out of the house, and sneak around the seedy parts of Athkatla. Mage because she had the brains, the time, and the money to make herself safer and stronger.
Mages are Nobles:
Historically, aristocrats have been scholars and vice versa. That's a standard across cultures around the world, even in China where the entry to scholarhood was ostensibly meritocratic. You need money and free time to get an education, and until this past century or so, education was more or less restricted to the nobility. So it makes sense that most mages would be nobles.
Nobles are Mages:
A career as a mage is a lot more comfy and relaxed and luxurious than any other class, since the training can be done indoors, in comfort, and away from legal and physical danger. So it makes sense that many nobles would be mages.
Bard is close. But Bards can't pick locks or sneak around in 2nd edition D&D. And Nalia doesn't have the Charisma to be a Bard, though BG2 can be loose with those restrictions. Fighter/Thief isn't remotely close; she has no reason to be experienced with weapons or armor or combat. Nor does she have the Strength to dual to or from Fighter.
A smart and well-educated noblewoman with high Dexterity, high Intelligence, low Strength, low Wisdom, low Charisma, and a need to sneak around and pick locks matches the description of only three classes: a Thief, a Thief->Mage, or a Mage->Thief.
Thief -> cleric is arguably the best fit for her personality, but you potentially run into slight social class concerns where it is slightly less likely her aunt would have permitted her to learn the basics. Probably couldn't be a reliable means to pass on inheritance of the estate in a fashion compliant with her family's wishes when her first loyalty is to an organized church.
Bard is a tough sell because it would have been difficult to hide her basic training from the family, unlike thief skills which are best practiced in a clandestine fashion. The warrior classes seem to be excluded by her family's ideas of gender roles.
I can say I agree and disagree with you, up until the fighter. While a fighter might not have been as noble as say a paladin; fighters/warriors were respected ad noble in many cultures around the world. Does it fit Nalia, based on the fact its a fantasy world based on a time steep in misogyny, chances of her father raining her in the sword isn't likely so right now I'm pretty much looking at the favor of the bard.
Also, I was talking about the fact that in my time ghosting the forums, I've come across post discussing just the amount of thief/mages and mages, especially when you take into account that we have no real sorcerer npc (baeloth doesn't count, he can burn in hell!) So the real idea behind the topic is if you were to change Nalia (her class and stats) what would you shoot for, I kind of took the topic to the left field with my post though
Making Nalia any sort of Fighter (or dualled Fighter) class would mess up the ending of her quest, because the reason she lends her Keep (to a Fighter protagonist) as a Stronghold is precisely because she's not a Fighter herself. So it doesn't fit the story for her to be changed into any sort of Fighter (or indeed Monk).
Any other sort of warrior class is more story-compatible, but she's certainly not a beefy Paladin type. Making her some sort of Ranger probably wouldn't too absurd, perhaps especially an Archer. The Stealth ability of a Ranger also fits with Nalia's habit of sneaking out of the Keep to help the unfortunate.
As has already been said, her noble upbringing would tend to imply plenty of educational opportunity, so I don't find it implausible that she might have spent her time studying to be a Mage, and it'd probably also fit well enough with becoming a Cleric. In either of those cases, first having a few levels of Thief would fit well with the story of her habitually sneaking out of the Keep, etc.
Nobles hire Assassins and Bounty Hunters, but I don't think they follow those trades themselves. However, I reckon Nalia might well enough be kitted as either a Swashbuckler or a Shadowdancer. Probably only as a pragmatic preliminary to dual-classing into a more "noble" profession, however, not as a full-time Thief.
Bard ... yes, @Nonnahswriter has a good point, Nalia could be a Bard. Actually Blade seems the most likely to me, but that's redundant in the game when we've already got Haer'Dalis as a Blade. I can't see her as a Skald, and even a Jester is a stretch. Unkitted Bard seems more like her, since there's no place for another Blade. [Edit: although if we were making further changes, Haer'Dalis might fit very well as a Jester instead, thereby freeing up room for Nalia to be a Blade ...]
It'd be mechanically most useful for assembling a party if Nalia had been changed into a Sorcerer (after the plot was changed to allow Imoen to be rescued), but Sorcerer doesn't really fit her story and background. If she showed an interest in magic, then the disciplined environment and educational opportunity of a noble upbringing would naturally lead her towards Mage, not Sorcerer.
Thus I reckon the plausible classes to fit Nalia's story and personality are:-
Thief->Mage as she already is, but perhaps kitted to Swashbuckler or Shadowdancer;
Thief->Cleric, again perhaps kitted to Swashbuckler or Shadowdancer;
Ranger, probably kitted to Archer;
Bard, probably unkitted [Edit: or kitted to Blade if we also convert Haer'Dalis to Jester].
Feels like it's more the image of a "light version" of a mage that people associate with bards that fits here. And the nice clothes.
And Blade, really? You see Nalia as an acrobatic fighter-performer, who laughs as she sings slaughter and dances death? I must have met a different Nalia in my games...
By ToB Nalia grows to be astute, sharp, and confident. Maybe the most actual character growth of the entire cast, short of a few of the larger optional changes you can bring about with the romances.
I don't see her laughing much as she slaughters enemies (and she wouldn't be singing because Bards stop singing to attack), but I wouldn't expect such laughter from any Good-aligned character.
It's just hard to form a mental image of Nalia's direct earnestness meshing with a Bard's more flowery methodologies.
And being smart doesn't automatically translate into being witty. Quick thinking doesn't necessarily mean you can express your thoughts quickly, or aptly. Nalia is intelligent and knows what she wants, but a Bard is a PERSONALITY. And she just doesn't have that.
Then again, maybe things just need to be looked at with more leeway, considering that the class system is too narrow to accommodate for the huge depth and complexity of personal character.
Still, we agree that Nalia probably wouldn't choose to become one.
Personally I always thought the death of her father could have been better handled. Particularly in late SoA. It ends up being like "welp...my father got killed by a troll sent by someone but I'm not really going to investigate it. Instead lets leave and never talk about him after his funeral"
"For the needy!!!" [poison!]
Makes perfect sense.
What? I have my own lore.
There is quite some fun in unconventional plays on characters, actually. Think about it!
Nalia the Assassin? Well, after a while she just realized that the system is rigged and rotten from the inside. Maybe there was some trigger event where she happened to end up alone with a particularly brutal count, who openly abused servants in her presence and laughed about it. That dagger was just lying there... and no one suspected a thing when she said it was a masked man who went out the window. Nor did they question the old baron's death after a sudden, violent illness. And everyone knew that slimy marquis had enemies... And...
I do not see Nalia as a bard at all. For one, she's living in a keep that's not really near any large cities that she'd be regularly visiting, so her performances would be a lot more "polite society lady of the keep playing for her family" frippery which I feel is what Nalia wanted to avoid. I also feel like Nalia's aunt would be utterly aghast at the idea of Nalia singing to entertain the masses in taverns that she would see as low and filthy. Nalia is being pressured to fit a noble lifestyle, which is exactly the whole point of her quest. Following a bard's life wouldn't meet that at all because bards are highly visible. The thief origin works better because it lets her be sneaky about what she's doing, hence the idea that she was a thief before (I would guess) being told "you're too old to keep doing that. You need to become a real lady now" and pushed to study magic. The study of magic would be far more dignified than being a bard or being a fighter.
I also don't think she'd fit well as a fighter. I feel that the gritty, front line kind of combat role was never hers to take. She's never struck me as a sort of tomboy. She's clever and that's how she works and how she survives. She takes you in the hidden back door so you can ambush the Yuan Ti holding her castle, she tells you about the secret passages in her home so you can build the flail which is the perfect tool for killing the trolls who have eaten the castle's servants. She's about giving you the tools and opportunities to strike effectively. Outside of the duelist kind of fighter mentioned above, she's never really struck me as being fit to be a fighter.
The ranger option also doesn't really click with me since she seems far more urban than woodsy, so maybe some sort of Stalker? But she never really shows a great love of nature or the outdoors as far as I can remember.
A cleric I could sort of see her being if she had a strong religious figure in her upbringing, but I feel like a lot of the fighter restrictions also apply here. I can't imagine Nalia in platemail with a mace. I also think that she's not a cleric reflects her naivete about how to actually help people. She's trying to help poor people by throwing money at the problem until it goes away. I look at a cleric as much more empathetic on an interpersonal level. As some character I can't remember notes, Nalia helps them but isn't one of them. A cleric is too empathetic of a role for her to have when you meet her.
Otoh, I feel Imoen should have stayed a single class Thief (or Swashbuckler) with the ability to use magical stuff like wands and arcane scrolls (thanks to her INT). Roleplaying wise, I don't get how she can suddenly become a full fledged wizard. Too bad there's no Arcane Trickster within BG, that would have solved everything.
Bhaalspawn blood, hell she could've become a sorceress and it wouldn't have been implausible.
I like to think the same thing for Nalia. It's no coincidence that I pick her when I do a Fighter/Thief character (in whatever setup). She was always a crafty, cunning girl - not stopped by locks or rules. A rogue, certainly. But when her father died she realized that sometimes, you have to DO something. Against some people, guile and trickery is not going to be enough. That's when she comes to CHARNAME and begs her to help her become someone who can defend the needy and helpless with more than just words. Sure, it's unbecoming for a noble, and unusual for a woman. But it's what's right, and what has to be done. Just another rule to be broken. Just another locked door to pry open, and step through. (That's when she duals to fighter, aaaw-yeah.)
More interesting, however, would be how being a Sorcerer plays into ideas of lineage and rightfulness. Nalia is constantly negotiating this rather risky terrain between being egalitarian and self-regarding, and haughty. To be born with the natural ability to use magic would go along so easily and interestingly with that: why shouldn't she feel a little entitled? Who else can do what she does? It would also give her further fuel for her anti-establishment ideas, owing to the fact that the Cowled Wizards would essentially be standing against something that is fundamentally a part of her, rather than a taboo practice. It's an interesting alternative to Mage/Thief, and one that gives her a more unique role within a party. I am a big fan of Nalia, personally, and could see the idea of her as a Sorcerer working so well.