Thoughts on party balance
Alonso
Member Posts: 806
I'd like to get some thoughts on party balance. I'm playing BG1 for the first time (I played BG2 years ago) and I'm never sure about how to choose my party members. I want a balanced party that is fun to play and has characters that I like. I just felt a bit like a traitor when I met Coran and replaced Imoen with him.
Of course, the part of liking the characters is just personal choice, but I want to hear about balance and fun. Currently I have two tanks (Kivan and Minsc), two mages (Dynaheir and Neera) and two hybrid characters (Coran and my cleric). I feel that I'm overusing magic. My two mages spend most of their time and spells trying to avoid getting killed. It feels like I would be doing fine without the mages, but I think that using magic is one of the most interesting parts of the game and I would be missing a lot if I dropped it.
What would you change in my party to make it more balanced or fun to play? Please feel free to be as subjective and biased in your answers as you will.
Of course, the part of liking the characters is just personal choice, but I want to hear about balance and fun. Currently I have two tanks (Kivan and Minsc), two mages (Dynaheir and Neera) and two hybrid characters (Coran and my cleric). I feel that I'm overusing magic. My two mages spend most of their time and spells trying to avoid getting killed. It feels like I would be doing fine without the mages, but I think that using magic is one of the most interesting parts of the game and I would be missing a lot if I dropped it.
What would you change in my party to make it more balanced or fun to play? Please feel free to be as subjective and biased in your answers as you will.
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Comments
There are some NPCs I've played with once and never touched again. Not even necessarily because I didn't like them but because I don't like them as much as others. Of course I want to play with my favorites. If that means settling into a routine run, I can live with that. Though every once in a while I do like to have some variety, just because. I actually don't get bored running the same party over and over, I like it that way. Even after years of playing I can still notice new interactions with the same party.
Of course there are certain party combinations that are more balanced than others. This is natural. It doesn't make any one party "better" than another in my opinion. Undoubtedly in somebody else's mind it will, but people are different and have different ways of looking at things.
Utility is important, but the game isn't impossible without it, which is why I like to encourage people to play with their parties based on who they like and not what they are. Some people are only interested in what an NPC can do for them, which is fair, but I personally don't play that way. I think it's important to play with NPCs you like, so that it feels like coming home each time you open the game.
That's just me babbling, though.
TLDR: Play with who you like.
My personal preference is to use only 1 mage or sorcerer because they require a lot of management and make battles complicated in an unnecessary way. On the other hand, they can prove to be extremely useful. So I'd say have one, but no more than one, if you want to keep the fun. I use my mage for harder fights or for putting invisibility on my thief. Easy fights can be handled without a mage.
As for a balanced party, I say it depends on the number of people in your party. If it's 6 of them, then I'd recommend:
- at least 2 tanks (with a shield) being either fighter, barbarian or paladin,
- I recommend a 3rd frontliner, that may afford to be more focused on damage dealing than tanking (with a two-handed weapon, one weapon in each hand or even a ranged weapon with the possibility to switch to a melee weapon on demand)
- 1 priest (a priest can of course tank but their primary goal is divine spellcasting)
- somebody with thief skills, that can multiclass/dual with another class if you like
- 1 single-class arcane spellcaster (=magician or sorcerer)
Sometimes, somebody will fill 2 roles at once. A fighter/cleric is often a good tank for example. Often enough, your thief will also be a fighter or a mage, so complete the team with what you like, you can try something original. Options to consider: a monk, a druid, a bard...
Uh, it's a bit late, I could elaborate but that's a basic answer
Two frontliners in heavy armor
Two ranged characters
Two Mages
One healer
One thief
For example, for my Paladin PC I went with the canon party:
Minsc (heavy armor, can range)
Khalid (Heavy armor, tank and can range)
Jaheira (Healer, can tank and can range)
Imoen (Thief and dualed to Mage, can also range a bit)
Dynaheir (Mage).
The above party is good because ranged combat is great in BG1 and people in heavy armor survive more.
Your current party is also good. Two tanks, ranged capabilities, two mages, a thief, a healer.
Two mages are fine. You want the powerful blasting spells later on. Plus summons or protections.
My blackguard (tank)
Kagain (tank)
Dorn (quest giver, 3rd frontliner)
Shar-Teel (dualed to thief since lvl 3 fighter)
Viconia (priest)
Edwin (mage)
It's only a temporary team because I plan to use characters that you meet on later chapters.
It's also worth stressing that it isn't essential to have a balanced party. Some experienced players even choose to solo the game, i.e. have no party except the protagonist, and that can be done successfully with any class or kit at all (although, of course, some classes are relatively difficult for solo play).
Nevertheless, the advantage of having a balanced party is that it makes it substantially easier to win.
About as far as one can go with fairly-unanimous agreement is that "balance" means that the four basic skill-sets of warrior, thief, priest and wizard are all included somewhere in the party. As soon as you try to be more specific than that, people will start arguing!
IMO, good balance for a full party in BG1 calls for 2-2.5 warriors, 0.5-1 thieves, 1-1.5 priests, 1-2 wizards.
Your own current party fits my criteria, @Alonso, so I'll call it adequately balanced.
Nevertheless, there are a couple of changes which I'd consider in your position. It might be worth swapping Kivan for Yeslick (a Fighter/Cleric whom you may or may not yet have met, he's later than Coran) ... Yeslick is about as good in melee as Kivan (although less good at range), but he's also a half-Cleric who would be a good supporting divine caster for your protagonist. Alternatively, a little later still, it might be worth swapping Neera for Quayle (a Cleric/Illusionist) ... he's not quite as good a Mage as Neera, but again he's a half-Cleric and the trade-off is probably advantageous. (I wouldn't recommend doing both of these swaps, that'd be too much emphasis on Clerics, but I reckon doing one or the other would be a gain.)
3 front liners ( sometimes 1 two handed user, then 2 shield users )
1 cleric of some sort
1 thief of some sort
1 mage/sorcerer
for example in bg1 for a good aligned party I would probably do something like this:
charname ( melee character of some sort)
Khalid ( using longsword and board)
kivan ( using scimitar and board)
yeslick ( bing a sling user)
coran ( being an archer)
xan - and maybe once in a solar eclipse I will choose neera - ( and have them sling it up)
and then for evil I will probably go with this:
charname ( being melee again in some fashion)
kagain ( axe and board)
safana ( longsword and board)
viconia ( sling wielding)
montaron ( archery with a longbow)
Edwin ( I prefer his level 5 spells over baeloth's level 4 spells)
and then in SoA if im a good aligned party I might be opt for this:
charname ( being melee)
mazzy ( axe and board)
keldorn ( sword and board)
anomen ( destroying with a sling)
imoen ( being a theif and having great spell casting)
nalia ( being the main mage with the better mage gear)
so sometimes I do mix it up a bit, but regardless on how whacky my class selection is, I always go based on weapon selection, and always have to have 3 characters using a melee weapon of some sort ( preferably the one handed weapons that give an AC bonus) and then the "main cleric" will use a sling, the "thief" will use a short bow, and the "main mage" will use firetooth
but I think the team that you have going on right now will work just fine, in reality as long as you have someone going in melee, and have a cleric somewhere, a thief somewhere and some sort of mage, then good enough and whatever you do for the last 2 is up to you
Actually, that's what drove me to start this thread in the first place. Until I met Coran, I'd say my choice of party members had followed this rule:
YES
- Minsc: The super duper better character ever! Boo alone would be worth keeping him.
- Dynaheir: As far as I'm concerned, she could go back to Rashemen. But how could I do that to Minsc?
- Neera: Passionate, stubborn, opinionated, and always screwing up in the loveliest possible way... That's the woman of my life!
- Kivan: Is he cool or what?
- Imoen: Not the best character ever, sure, but hey, isn't she lovely?
NO
- Khalid: Grow a pair, for ****'s sake!
- Jaheira: Yes, yes, yes, whatever. Tell someone who cares.
- Branwen: Nothing special against her. Just... Meh.
- Faldorn: Ugh!
- Garrick: Nothing against him either, don't get me wrong. Just want my BG's men to be... well, men.
- Xan: We're trying to have a good time here, dude.
And then came my terrible moral dilemma: Lovely but barely useful Imoen versus cool let's-go-for-it Coran. You know the rest of the story. I haven't had a good night of sleep ever since.
In addition, however, when you've got a major battle coming and need to buff hard, that takes some time at one-spell-per-round, but some of the buffs are actually quite short-duration. Therefore, if all your buffing is waiting on one character to cast the spells, then even with forethought about the casting order, some buffs can still be half-expired before you've finished buffing.
It's also relevant in the battles where you're casting a lot mid-combat (which admittedly is only a few occasions in BG1, although it's common in BG2), when one-spell-per-round of arcane and of divine can be quite limiting when you're in a hurry to "do unto them before they do unto you".
Thus I often find that it's more useful, at the times when it really counts, to have two characters who can cast divine and two characters who can cast arcane. Even if they're all half-Clerics and/or half-Mages, the fact that they can cast simultaneously can be quite valuable.
Hence why I think it'd make your team a fraction stronger if you swap in a half-Cleric. (But sure, it's only a marginal improvement, since you've already got a pretty decent team.)
[Edit: spelling.]
Ideally (IWD for example) I like to run a full arcane, a full divine, and then half (bard/paladin) of each as well, but in BG, I find the minor mannerisms mean more to me than a 'perfect' party.
However, how do you reconcile this equal-power preference with the considerable differences between the power-curves of different classes? Like Mages and Monks are feeble at start-BG1 but great at end-BG2, while warrior types have much flatter development.
3 front-liners
0.5-1 Thief
0.5-1 Divine Caster
1.5-2.5 Arcane casters
Fill out any remaining spaces with ranged attackers
Obviously, there's a lot of potential for overlap; I like filling my Thief and Divine slots with multi/dual-classed characters. A half-caster slot can also be filled with a Bard or a casting Paladin. More than two arcane caster can get difficult to find scrolls for (especially for the high level spells). And I find that having more than three melee characters can get crowded in tight spaces, hence the use of ranged specialists to fill things out.
All that being said, sometimes unbalanced parties can be fun for finding tactics you've never had to use before. With my melee-heavy parties, I often don't feel the need to summon, but when I ran a party with about 5 casters (including Jaheira and Cernd) I discovered the joy of fire elementals.
Of course balanced means different things for different people, but I can't see the balance in having 2.5 Arcane casters (in this game).
If you were wanting a strategically more balanced party, though, I'd scrap one of your Mages. With a limited number of NPCs, one Mage is enough for any party. Though, If you're into using magic, I'd swap one for a magic/tank crossover; a fighter/cleric or a fighter/druid. Plus, though I am more than a little biased on this point, I still say that an archer character would be useful because, honestly, a party's incomplete without one! I still have Imoen in my party (she seriously guilt tripped me every time I tried to swap her), so I use her and my Ranger at the back line.
My perfect party is usually-
-Two fighters at the front
-A cleric and a mage in the middle
-A thief and another fighter-y character at the back with bows
Going without one or more classes in a party does two things:
1. You realize that none of the classes are truly 'necessary'.
2. You get a good feel for the strength, weaknesses and usage of the classes you have. You push the limits of what they can do, and though in some cases you find those limits, in many cases you discover that they are capable of more than you realized.
A lot of people probably wouldn't dream of doing BG2 or Throne of Bhaal without a mage, but it's really quite fun. Likewise, an all spellcaster line-up in BG1 can be tremendous fun as well.
Balanced parties, to me, give me the same impression that an all 18 charname gives. Certainly good, but also boring and 'samey'.
As for balance meaning different things to different people, that's true. Some people would look at a party with a specialist mage, sorcerer, and bard and say "That's overpowered because arcane casting is so amazing," while another person would look at the same party and say "too many squishies." For my part I consider 2.5 to be the upper limit, but it can definitely be useful to have three characters tossing out spells, as you can debuff, debilitate, and blast all at the same time.
One set of fun runs that I tried was theme parties after a specific class, for each of the classic classifications, so a party of fighters, a party of thieves, a party of clerics, and a party of mages. Multi/dual class characters help fill in the blank roles where required, and a paladin is a fighter etc.
Even with such wildly non-balanced parties, I hit only one real snag - the party of clerics has a REALLY hard time if it sails the boat out of Ulgoth's Beard. In order to return, you need to defeat a monster that is immune to most weapons in the game, and those that it is vulnerable to are bladed...
So balance is over-rated compared to fun. I agree that a D&D game does not feel like D&D without a mage, but they contribute surprisingly little until late game in BG, so I would suggest running just one mage for flavor, for most of the game. Late game, you will have the option to pick up a couple of multi-class mages, or you could dual-class one of several humans who qualify, to pick up a second mage when they have more to contribute.
I actually found getting the right cleric to be the hardest slot to fill for me. Jaheira feels more like a fighter than a cleric, partly because druids lack many of the classic clerical miracles. Branwen is the only other option close to the start of the game, and easily missed. Somehow, she just never quite feels the right balance for my parties either, although I have a fondness for good aligned over neutral. Yeslick took me way too long to discover, as usually my party has solidified by the time I get there, and is only a part-time cleric (multi-class). He is now my default cleric for most runs though, mostly as he is the most abusably powerable NPC in the game (with belt, gauntlets and shield can hit STR/DEX/CON of 19/18/18, before casting spells!) The last two clerics are part-timers too, and require entry into Balder's Gate, long long after my party is baked. I do have a soft spot for Quayle as well though, and lest we forget, Tiax Rules! Last choice is that sometimes I will run Faldorn for a different flavor, and those games are usually a lot of fun, but mostly because they /are/ different to my 'mainstream' playthroughs. Also, if the PC is playing the cleric, there may be no need to fill this role at all. PC playing a cleric/thief fills two important roles in the party that don't really need duplicates, leaving you free-er to add to the party as you see fit...
my general rules are similar to what is posted above, but i usually rather slightly more healing or spell casting/disabling than fighting capacity. typically i also want to use tankier clerics/druids due to them being in or near the combat epicenter makes for quicker healing. as a personal rule to avoid frustrations, i never play my PC as a front liner (melee fighter), so i usually play some kind of caster or archer (casters i feel perform better being micromanaged anyway)
so my basic setup would be something like:
2+ front liners, 1+ magic users, 1-2 cleric, 1-2 sniper, 1+ thief.
a good team would be like:
PC (mage/sorcerer, or maybe cleric/mage etc)
Imoen (call me crazy but i actually use her as a pure thief, and she does fairly well)
Kivan or Minsc (usually Kivan as a sharpshooter)
Khalid or Ajantis (Khalid is marginally better, and pally abilities rarely make a notable difference)
Jaheira (secondary tank and buffer/healer)
Branwen or Viconia (solid clerics, Viconia usually still works OK in good teams)
i would say swapping Imoen for Coran is a later upgrade, and likewise Yeslick in place of Branwen.
Branwen i think is better suited for melee combat than Viconia, but while Viconia is more frail vs weapons, she gets hefty spell resistance so personal pref there. if i do the cleric myself i would take either Dynaheir or Neera (Neera has better physical stats IIRC but Dynaheir has more spell capacity). alternatively i guess you could drop khalid/jaheira for minsc/ajantis, play the cleric PC and keep dynaheir.
for evil party, it gets a little more tricky since you already have the best possible mage option (Edwin), and very good cleric (Viconia), and a super front liner (Dorn), and even an awesome tank (Kagain) so right off the bat you have half the party filled hands down. thief and sniper roles are probably hardest to fill here (could do PC as either, but Shar-teel can do them too), Eldoth makes a good spell casting sniper option, but for the most part the evil party lineup is pretty streamlined.
evil party goes:
PC (thief and/or sniper, can take advantage of kits)
Dorn (main front line damage/tank)
Kagain (major tank)
Viconia (not any better evil clerics around)
Edwin (best evil caster IMO, and everyone kills Xzar anyway lol)
Eldoth or Shar-teel (sniper/thief depending on PC choice)
2 thieves
2 divine casters
1 arcane
Maximum fun in my experience, fill in the slots as you like.