I have never finished this game
Kneller
Member Posts: 438
I've tried more times than I can count, but I just can't, even though I really want to. Honestly, it's practically a bucket list thing at this point. It used to be chronic restarteritis, but at this point, there's just some stuff that annoys me about the gameplay. I think the biggest obstacle for me are the mage battles. I absolutely despise what the entire school of abjuration brings to this game. Mages instantly start battles with a gagillion protections up, so your mages have to spend their time stripping them down so you can get a hit in. What happened to the good ol' days when you could just chuck a fireball here, a haste there, and just call it a day? Those were some good times. Now I have to scroll back on the combat log to see exactly what they cast and then check my wizard's spells to make sure I have what I need to strip it. Have you read the spell description for Breach? It takes down 19 specific spell protections. In other words, a long list of not all of them. Seriously, Abjuration needs to be streamlined a little. I feel like I'm filing taxes. To make matters worse, there's so much magic flying around this game, the screen looks like my computer is doing acid. There should be an epilepsy warning. On top of that, I've only ever played this game as far as maybe 6th level spell access. God forbid what a battlefield is going to look like should I bring some dragon's breath or storm of vengeance into the mix.
At this point, I hate BG2 magic so much, I'm tempted to take a shot as an inquisitor, which I also hate because they lose pretty much all their paladin specials for the sake of two (albeit powerful in certain situations) abilities.
Getting off the rant, the bottom line is that I want to finish this game, with the canon party (Minsc, Jaheira, Yoshi->Imoen, whoever else) and shelf it for once and for all. Has anyone else ever been in this situation? Can anyone offer any tips so I can just finish this game?
In the meantime, I started an IWD+NPCs run so I can work with something a little more reasonable.
At this point, I hate BG2 magic so much, I'm tempted to take a shot as an inquisitor, which I also hate because they lose pretty much all their paladin specials for the sake of two (albeit powerful in certain situations) abilities.
Getting off the rant, the bottom line is that I want to finish this game, with the canon party (Minsc, Jaheira, Yoshi->Imoen, whoever else) and shelf it for once and for all. Has anyone else ever been in this situation? Can anyone offer any tips so I can just finish this game?
In the meantime, I started an IWD+NPCs run so I can work with something a little more reasonable.
2
Comments
if you want to calm down the madness of enemy spell casting, here is what you do:
before battle have haste, remove fear, true seeing and protectioin from evil 10' radius, then when battle starts, let the enemy mage's defenses come up and then start casting breach right away on the enemy mage, once his defenses are down, have EVERYONE attack the mage ( if done correctly this will kill enemy mages in no time flat, although rakshasas and liches are immune to breach but luckily they aren't fought as often as humanoid mages)
another tactic that I sometimes do as well ( especially for harder fights) is I will cast protection from fire on all my melee guys and send them in then have my casters chuck in fireballs/firestorms and the such, and just watch the baddies burn ( this tactic in SoA works very VERY well since there is just small handful of enemies immune to fire and especially the firestorm spell, there isn't much in terms of enemy protections that will protect them from firestorm)
so in the end you really only need breach and true seeing and you should be able to take out any humanoid mages, and for the creatures immune to breach, summon some monsters, send them in one at a time until the enemy's protection from weapons has expired ( the protection from magical weaponry spells all last only 4 rounds) and then come in with hell fire and the battle should be yours
Some fights have been tougher than others, but I don't recall any fight I've done where I've had to carefully redo all the spells on my mage and think about what I'm casting on who - just breach and run in weapons drawn.
level 1:
all set to magic missile ( identify is not necessary because there is an item that you can get early in bg2 which gives you identify 3 times a day - the googles of identification-)
level 2:
mirror image x2
melf's acid arrow for the rest
level 3:
haste x1
fireball for the rest
level 4:
stoneskin x2
fireshield red
fireshield blue ( and yes the 2 stack)
greater malison/ emotion
level 5:
breach x2
hold monster for the rest
level 6:
chain lightning for all of them
level 7:
mass invisibility x1
finger of death for the rest
level 8:
abidalzim's horrid wilting for all of them
level 9:
absolute immunity x1
chain contingency for the rest
in bg2 enchantment spells are very VERY powerful, so if you want to swap up some level 4 spells for confusion and don't have hold monster for level 5 and use chaos, you will notice baddies getting curb stomped from enchantment spells, and hold monster, is an absolutely wicked level 5 spell, it will hold up to 1d4 worth of enemies and it comes with a -2 penalty to the save, any spell that brings in a penalty is god mode, that's why I bring finger of death for level 7, I've killed big bosses in one go with finger of death before
also maybe you feel the micro managing part of a mage can seem a bit tedious, are you using any AI scripts with your mage? if you have it set to mage aggressive they will cast magic missile, hold monster, finger of death and abidalzim's horrid wilting without you having to deal with them
Then I thought, "Sod it! I won't play the game by their rules (whoever 'they' are!), I WILL find a way to play it MY way!" (as you can tell by that little rant I was pretty exasperated at that stage).
The following works well for me now:
Right from the start in BG1 I build a tank designed to destroy enemies in ToB. This means a Blackguard (or a Berserker if I don't want to play Evil). I make sure he gets to read the str/dex/con tomes in BG1 and I select his weapon proficiencies very carefully, depending on which weapon/s I want him to use in SoA (usually Celestial Fury or Foebane - I play sword and shield types to maximise defence, in fact I put being 'bulletproof' before damage output).
During SoA I acquire items for him that give "protection from.....when equipped/worn". Prior to a fight my cleric casts other protections on him including Chaotic Commands (a Blackguard comes with Negative Plane Protection as standard) as well as Bless, Defensive Harmony etc. while my mage chucks in Luck for good measure. Then, when I'm good to go, my mage casts Haste on the party and I send my tank into battle while my mage (as sarevok57 says) hurls Breach after Breach at their mage with the rest of the party chipping in with missile weapons.
So, after lots of buffing, Haste and Breach are the only spells I use extensively.
Using this mindset the party I'm running at the moment were able to beat both Kangaxx and the Twisted Rune before going to Spellhold and have just finished Watcher's Keep while still in SoA.
But in the vanilla game, a mage or bard with a few breach spells is enough for most battles. (Breach fails against liches and rakshasas in the vanilla game!) An inquisitor with Carsomyr will make every mage battle a cake walk.
I am going to try to keep going with my Cav run, but have my single mage focus on being a buffer/debuffer. Think about it. A fireball later in the game does 10d6 damage, but to cast it you need to drop a GM to increase the change of save failure by 20%, and even then you're looking at about a 50/50 chance to do 35 damage on average, or 17.5 damage if they do save. Or, Minsc can be DWing the FoA and Belm and do more than that damage per round. And sure, Skull trap has no cap, but it's only a minor improvement.
That being said (and this was part of another thread), my best bet might be Nalia (for a good party) until I get Imoen, which I would like to do ASAP. However, at this moment, I'm stuck in the planar prison with Minsc, Jah, Yoshi, and Aerie and I think I'm under-leveled for this....
Baldur's Gate: Enhanced Edition Spell Combat
Keep in mind, it doesn't list the physical protections, PfMW, mantle, etc. But, it efficiently communicates which spells you need to take down spell protections. It shows why Secret Word and (later) Ruby Ray of Reversal are so effective. Need to get rid of Spell Trap? RRR is the lowest level spell for the job.
As others have stated, most late game battles follow a similar script with the mages: True Sight/detect illusion > RRR > Breach, repeat.
That's why I feel party Sorcerers don't lose out on much with their limited spellbook. If you play defensive mages, there are really not that many spells you need to learn to be highly effective in the game. Of course if you enjoy a more creative, proactive playthrough, that is a different matter.
Or, you can use area-effect spells. Fireball won't bypass Minor Globe of Invulnerability, but Sunfire will. Sunfire won't bypass lich immunities, but Chain Lightning will. Chain Lightning won't hurt Rakshasas, but Horrid Wilting will.
I'm going to have a go at a minimal mage breach and bash strategy. The question is, is there anything that blocks breach from working?
From what I remember though it's not hard to dispel enemies and go to town, even against bosses.
Sluckers: casts Unenchanted fist!
A lot of mages, even SCS mages, can be taken down without the need for magical-chess by going back to basics. An un-enchanted elemental arrow or arrow of biting won't care if some fancypants mage has Pro. from Magical Weapons up, nor stone skin. Keep a standard +0 sword in a weapon slot. Or blow up the room... you know, whatever is your style.
If all else fails, have a cleric or two. Used well, a cleric is a surefire mage-killer. Lots of protections and an inbuilt ability to conjure a magical (but not enchanted) sword that cuts through stone skin and all weapons protections except mantle (though a +3 weapon will defeat mantle, and there are plenty of those at the beginning of BG2. +4 will overcome improved mantle). I have never seen an enemy mage cast protection from normal weapons... so I never worry about it.
Another option are thieves, who can be deadly mage killers in their own right with the right skill points and only a single item of equipment (Whispers of Silence). With a good thief you can smack those arrogant over-valued arcane blowhards up the backs of their heads with a decent staff and end the battle before it starts, or before an enemy mage even has a chance to use a second sequencer or contingency.
You can also combine the two. Woe to the mage who runs afoul of a cleric/thief. You can combine your backstabs with Slay Living for that extra 'to-hit' bonus, though it is a bit of a risk since, if the enemy makes the save, the token spell damage, rather than the backstab, will apply. But nothing ventured, nothing gained.
I'm not sure if this will work with Aerie. I don't know if the Slay Living weapon is enchanted or not, or just counts as a fist attack. You could try it, though, as she can protect herself from magic and then just walk right up to an enemy mage and, possibly, end the battle with a single punch.
The Silence spell is effective against neutrals, unlike Greater Malison. Could also be useful, and comes with a save penalty. You can use a thief scout as an artillery spotter or use detect evil to avoid metagaming, and have fun with it.
Invisibility, though, is king. It not only helps you evade certain spells, but it also prevents an enemy mage's protective contingencies from going off. This is why thief backstabs can be so effective.
I do sympathize about the magic system; it feels like chess sometimes (or the Calamshite Itch). The problem with chess is that when you get to really high skill levels and stakes, you realize there are only 1 or 2 actual moves to make. It's very limiting and repetitive, and--especially with SCS installed--the mage battles are up there with the dullest moments of the game.
I sighed very very loudly the first time I encountered SCS Lavok. The dude has 16 rounds of weapons protections in all kinds of sequencers and contingencies. For all I know he's got more, but I didn't wait to find out. I pissed him off and harrassed him until he cast a mantle spell, then tore him to shreds with my Totemic Druid's spirit animals (which strike at better enchantment than mantle protection). But yes, there comes a point when you think "Is this a joke?"
But in the defence of SCS, it comes with a lot of other great and wondrous improvements. You can choose, also, not to install the improved mages. The mod is worth the improved general AI on it's own, so if you're ever comfortable with giving it a try, go for it!
If it makes you feel any kind of hope at all, I haven't cast a single Breach spell in SCS yet. I don't even really run with mages in my party, either. Imoen is about it.
Worry not. You can always play your own way, mages be damned.
Seriously, though. It is tremendously satisfying to knock a mage unconscious with your fist. Where is your magic now, eh?
What you propose is the route I prefer.
At the risk of repeating myself, you first have to be able to target a mage before you can cast Breach. Mislead is a very common spell used by mages. This must be removed either by brute force killing the copy (while the primary is casting nasty stuff against you) or by using True Sight/detect illusion before you can cast breach.
Late game mages also cast a lot of Spell Trap and other spell protections. You will need to remove them before you can land Breach. RRR works well for this because it is only 7th level, but if you want space for more Project Images, you can use 8th level Pierce Shield as well.
Once the spell protections are down and you can target the mage, you can land your Breach spell.
Also, as Lord_Tansheron mentioned, some enemies have innate immunities. Those are rare, but annoying. In addition to the ones LT mentioned, I believe Firkraag needs a Secret Word thrown at him before you can land a Breach spell.
Thank goodness the hell challenges make up for it.
@Gallowglass: In this particular case, none of the spells those mages were casting would have helped, so @Sirbatince's point is reasonable. The Skeleton Warriors to the south have 90 MR, the golems all have 100 MR, and the rakshasas are immune to spells below level 8.