...unless you're building your Sorcerer to be a mage-killer (which seems like an odd way to live your life, as a Sorcerer)...
In a game enhanced by tactical mods (e.g. Stratagems), that's the typical career path of a (solo) sorcerer. A restrictive case for sure, but it is often used by experienced players.
Whith only 2 spells, Pierce Magic and RRoR, can -lower magic resistence -deal whith SI Abiuration -deal whith Magic Trap -remove every spell protection you can ever think about. only some problems whith demilich that have a natural immunity to spells beyond a certain level.
2 spells, and he can learn 44 spells.
Really I can't understand the specialized sorcerer or mage killer sorcerer thing.
Assuming no gear based protections or bonus spells, no Project Image, Time Stop or Wish
Ok whith no gear based protections, but this is only one of the possible scenaries for the battle. But why to nerf 3 of the most powerfull resouces of the sorcerer, resources that are implemented in the game as it is? Then I can assume no phisical attacks, and this is as arbitrary as your assuming...... Also given the same xp for both the sorc will have highter level so will have a really powefull spell, remove magic, has a hight chance of completely debuffing the C/M while the same spell from the C/M have little chance to work.
Rather than focus on a single line, please read the full post. I'm responding to someone, and quote that at the top of my post. Specifically: "And I don't think he can reasonably have all options available."
Since my post was in response to the idea that a Cleric/Illusionist lacks the versatility to deal with whatever any variety of sorcerer might throw at him, I have no particular bias or goal other than to demonstrate the contrary, that a capped Cleric/Mage does have enough spell slots to cover any situation.
As such, I am not being arbitrary or trying to give an advantage to one side over the other, the provisions provided are to avoid infinite spell loops and Time Stop, since there's not really a counter strategy to "First Time Stop Wins" beyond being undetected, and because accounting for gear granted resistances would mean a custom list for each, which would be impractical.
Finally, I assume SI: Abjuration will be active on both parties, making Dispel Level irrelevant unless you're dispelling summons for some reason. I mentioned the "combined level" for Cleric/Mage dispel more as a matter of interest, since I've seen someone mention it as a Cleric -> Mage dual class getting combined caster level for it.
But yeah, I don't think assuming no physical attacks would really alter anything either way. The Cleric/Illusionist gets 117 spells per day, not including sequencers or contingencies.
Rather than focus on a single line, please read the full post. I'm responding to someone, and quote that at the top of my post. Specifically: "And I don't think he can reasonably have all options available."
Since my post was in response to the idea that a Cleric/Illusionist lacks the versatility to deal with whatever any variety of sorcerer might throw at him,
I regard Wish from PI as utterly OP and still perfectly legit (someone have objections about using PI at all, but since is impossible to mod the game to have it working as in PnP their choice is something that I respect but see as one of the many "autonerfs" that experienced players often use but is not obligatory). And sorc is the character that can better use Wish from PI, so why arbitrariely nerf him?
I regard Wish from PI as utterly OP and still perfectly legit (someone have objections about using PI at all, but since is impossible to mod the game to have it working as in PnP their choice is something that I respect but see as one of the many "autonerfs" that experienced players often use but is not obligatory). And sorc is the character that can better use Wish from PI, so why arbitrariely nerf him?
I don't disagree, but please note that I am avoiding infinite spell loops in my post to restrict the C/I, not the sorcerer. I am trying to demonstrate the versatility that all those spell slots per day provide.
If you allow them to use wish or PI/Spell Trap cycles then that versatility is irrelevant, because they can tailor their entire spell list to any new scenario by evading combat for five minutes or so to reset with the loop.
Around 3-4 million xp, sorcerer wins because he can cast 9th and 8th lvl spells. Yeah that spells are strong. While c/m struggles with 7th lvl parlor tricks. After 6 million xp it is not certain who wins as c/m will get 9th lvl spell as well, though sorcerer still has a lot more.
I don't think cleric spells pose much of a threat to a sorc, no sorc falls victim to harm, slay living etc. Unless completely caught off guard. Only Storm of vengeance is a credible threat to a sorcerer, so the sorc should disrupt the c/m before he releases a storm of vengeance. SoV deals a coctail of elemental damage, ignores mr and spell protections/invisibility, it disrupts spells easily and if the unlucky sorc fails a save (very likely as mages suck at poison/disease saves) he will be badly poisoned. Luckily, clerical spells are long casts and can be disrupted.
So yeah I will still bet on sorcerer winning. C/ms are great party buffers and support. But a powergaming sorcerer is in a different power tier alltogether.
Wish resting is still really really luck based. With 18 Wisdom it works about 20% of the time. It's enough to guarantee an infinite number of spells if you don't get disturbed somehow. The C/M could destroy your Project Image by simply using an AoE on your character and you would need on average a few rounds of casting only Wish before you could replenish your spells, during that time the C/M could destroy the Sorcerer.
Storm of vengeance is a very powerfull spell against casters, I agree. But the problem whith most of the aoe spells is that running out of the area of the spell nerfs them and usually they don't kill you before you run away. I regard as more dangerous spells like web or glitterdust, a missed save whith them means game over.
About wish depends on the equipment, whith the robe and the amulet casting PI is almost immediate, the PI can cast IA quite fast, if we factor in SoTM she cast it while invisible, and then can istant cast up to 5 whishes. 5 for every PI, in far less then half a round. whithout robe and amulet, if the PI manage to run away she can, in a longher time, cast her whishes. The only problem in this is that the PI can easily be dispelled or true sighted, but a good player never cast PI in a situation where it can happen, he goes invisible and move to a place where the PI can be casted safely or uses other ways to protect her. For every other caster, excluding a wild mage using dewomers, wish is luck based, for the sorcerer failing the wish is a very very rare event. Maybe it occourred to me a couple of times counting all my runs. And in the process usually he gets also other positive effects, hardness for everybody, improoved haste for the whole party and so on. Cheese: you can kill the PI or she can kill herself whith some skull traps, MM or fire arrows and collect the eventual wands and potions from the whishes, but are lost if the PI dispells herself or is dispelled.
Really the sorcerer is broken, is too much OP. Potentially a sorc can give to the party infinite wands, infinite money, infinite +4 bullets, tons of scrolls and potions, infinite xp and on top of that infinite whish rests. You want to send the party to the battle whith 120% hardness for everybody, magic resistence and everybody equipped whith both the wands from WK fully charged? No problem, tell your sorcerer. They should ban sorcs from the game at all.....
@semiticgod I consider the Wand of Lightning trick as bad cheese (and for me cheese=everything that exploits the game, AI, engine and so on) involving cheat, an inventory swap, so I never use it. Of the big chunk of cheese I had exposed only the collecting wands, scrolls potoins and bullets is tecnically a cheese and maybe, but we can debate about that, involve cheating, but at a far lesser degree. The use of PI to spam multiple whishes and benefit of their effects is only the use of a combination of spells, as they are implemented in BG2, each one for the purpose it was implemented. Is the combination of them that is powefull, but IMHO is not cheese at all, it don't involve any exploit. Is OP, is cheap, as it tends to trivialize the game, but is legit.
Also I used it extensively in testing, I love stinky cheese, and I often repeat the same battle whith many tactics, from those where I massively cheese the game, to those where I utterly nerf myself (only mlee, only spells, only ranged, soloing whith each party member while the others stand safe in a corner and so on). But the only part of it I frequenlty use outside of testing pourposes is the wish for rest strategy.
I love chease resarch, and see at which degree of OP is possible to play the game, but I also love a fair game, against enemies that are not fair at all, like the ones of tactics mod. Cheap and cheesy tactics are not required to beat the game, even whith difficoluty increasing mods, player's intelligence is EVER superior to AI........
Yes, use it "against" your party swapping healing potions.... I only tested it and never played it whitout reloading the battle and repeating it by fair means, as I consider it cheating, and I don't like to cheat (actually I cheat almost in every run, but in a totally different way, I want to start another topic on cheating because I think there is a lot to debate about). I see the fun in using the trick.
Comments
-lower magic resistence
-deal whith SI Abiuration
-deal whith Magic Trap
-remove every spell protection you can ever think about.
only some problems whith demilich that have a natural immunity to spells beyond a certain level.
2 spells, and he can learn 44 spells.
Really I can't understand the specialized sorcerer or mage killer sorcerer thing.
Since my post was in response to the idea that a Cleric/Illusionist lacks the versatility to deal with whatever any variety of sorcerer might throw at him, I have no particular bias or goal other than to demonstrate the contrary, that a capped Cleric/Mage does have enough spell slots to cover any situation.
As such, I am not being arbitrary or trying to give an advantage to one side over the other, the provisions provided are to avoid infinite spell loops and Time Stop, since there's not really a counter strategy to "First Time Stop Wins" beyond being undetected, and because accounting for gear granted resistances would mean a custom list for each, which would be impractical.
Finally, I assume SI: Abjuration will be active on both parties, making Dispel Level irrelevant unless you're dispelling summons for some reason. I mentioned the "combined level" for Cleric/Mage dispel more as a matter of interest, since I've seen someone mention it as a Cleric -> Mage dual class getting combined caster level for it.
But yeah, I don't think assuming no physical attacks would really alter anything either way. The Cleric/Illusionist gets 117 spells per day, not including sequencers or contingencies.
And sorc is the character that can better use Wish from PI, so why arbitrariely nerf him?
If you allow them to use wish or PI/Spell Trap cycles then that versatility is irrelevant, because they can tailor their entire spell list to any new scenario by evading combat for five minutes or so to reset with the loop.
After 6 million xp it is not certain who wins as c/m will get 9th lvl spell as well, though sorcerer still has a lot more.
I don't think cleric spells pose much of a threat to a sorc, no sorc falls victim to harm, slay living etc. Unless completely caught off guard. Only Storm of vengeance is a credible threat to a sorcerer, so the sorc should disrupt the c/m before he releases a storm of vengeance. SoV deals a coctail of elemental damage, ignores mr and spell protections/invisibility, it disrupts spells easily and if the unlucky sorc fails a save (very likely as mages suck at poison/disease saves) he will be badly poisoned.
Luckily, clerical spells are long casts and can be disrupted.
So yeah I will still bet on sorcerer winning. C/ms are great party buffers and support. But a powergaming sorcerer is in a different power tier alltogether.
It's enough to guarantee an infinite number of spells if you don't get disturbed somehow. The C/M could destroy your Project Image by simply using an AoE on your character and you would need on average a few rounds of casting only Wish before you could replenish your spells, during that time the C/M could destroy the Sorcerer.
About wish depends on the equipment, whith the robe and the amulet casting PI is almost immediate, the PI can cast IA quite fast, if we factor in SoTM she cast it while invisible, and then can istant cast up to 5 whishes. 5 for every PI, in far less then half a round.
whithout robe and amulet, if the PI manage to run away she can, in a longher time, cast her whishes.
The only problem in this is that the PI can easily be dispelled or true sighted, but a good player never cast PI in a situation where it can happen, he goes invisible and move to a place where the PI can be casted safely or uses other ways to protect her.
For every other caster, excluding a wild mage using dewomers, wish is luck based, for the sorcerer failing the wish is a very very rare event. Maybe it occourred to me a couple of times counting all my runs. And in the process usually he gets also other positive effects, hardness for everybody, improoved haste for the whole party and so on.
Cheese: you can kill the PI or she can kill herself whith some skull traps, MM or fire arrows and collect the eventual wands and potions from the whishes, but are lost if the PI dispells herself or is dispelled.
Really the sorcerer is broken, is too much OP. Potentially a sorc can give to the party infinite wands, infinite money, infinite +4 bullets, tons of scrolls and potions, infinite xp and on top of that infinite whish rests.
You want to send the party to the battle whith 120% hardness for everybody, magic resistence and everybody equipped whith both the wands from WK fully charged? No problem, tell your sorcerer.
They should ban sorcs from the game at all.....
I consider the Wand of Lightning trick as bad cheese (and for me cheese=everything that exploits the game, AI, engine and so on) involving cheat, an inventory swap, so I never use it.
Of the big chunk of cheese I had exposed only the collecting wands, scrolls potoins and bullets is tecnically a cheese and maybe, but we can debate about that, involve cheating, but at a far lesser degree.
The use of PI to spam multiple whishes and benefit of their effects is only the use of a combination of spells, as they are implemented in BG2, each one for the purpose it was implemented. Is the combination of them that is powefull, but IMHO is not cheese at all, it don't involve any exploit.
Is OP, is cheap, as it tends to trivialize the game, but is legit.
Also I used it extensively in testing, I love stinky cheese, and I often repeat the same battle whith many tactics, from those where I massively cheese the game, to those where I utterly nerf myself (only mlee, only spells, only ranged, soloing whith each party member while the others stand safe in a corner and so on).
But the only part of it I frequenlty use outside of testing pourposes is the wish for rest strategy.
I love chease resarch, and see at which degree of OP is possible to play the game, but I also love a fair game, against enemies that are not fair at all, like the ones of tactics mod. Cheap and cheesy tactics are not required to beat the game, even whith difficoluty increasing mods, player's intelligence is EVER superior to AI........
I only tested it and never played it whitout reloading the battle and repeating it by fair means, as I consider it cheating, and I don't like to cheat (actually I cheat almost in every run, but in a totally different way, I want to start another topic on cheating because I think there is a lot to debate about).
I see the fun in using the trick.