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Cleric/Mage vs Sorcerer POLL Which Class would beat the other in 1v1 combat

MortaelMortael Member Posts: 33
edited January 2016 in Baldur's Gate II: Enhanced Edition
Discuss.
  1. Cleric/Mage vs Sorcerer POLL Which Class would beat the other in 1v1 combat19 votes
    1. Cleric/Mage (Includes Illusionist)
      68.42%
    2. Sorcerer
      31.58%
Post edited by Mortael on
«1

Comments

  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    I'm not sure what you expect from this. "Better" is such an incredibly subjective term, and the variables involved in even approaching anything resembling a comparison are WILDLY different from case to case. Pretty pointless imo, no offense :/
  • moody_magemoody_mage Member Posts: 2,054
    Define 'better'.
  • MortaelMortael Member Posts: 33
    edited January 2016
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    I'm not sure what you expect from this. "Better" is such an incredibly subjective term, and the variables involved in even approaching anything resembling a comparison are WILDLY different from case to case. Pretty pointless imo, no offense :/

    For God's sake, I did not want to make this poll based on my own opinion, that is for you guys to decide! I have my reasons and I wont share them, purely because I don't want to say what they are :D At least give me an advantages/disadvantages list :)
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    So why not make a post about the advantages/disadvantages of Cleric/Mage vs. Sorcerer? Polls just needlessly polarize matters that are far from dichotomous.
  • RodrianRodrian Member Posts: 426
    edited January 2016
    Cleric/Mage - because s/he can be an EVIL CLERIC/NECROMANCER!!! buahahaha!!! :naughty:
  • GallowglassGallowglass Member Posts: 3,356
    Assuming no pre-buffing, then the winner is whichever one is wearing the Robe of Vecna.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Mortael said:

    :D At least give me an advantages/disadvantages list :)


    Advantages

    Sorcerer:
    - can use RoV
    - can use SOTM
    _ really powerfull class

    Cleric/Magee
    - can use RoV
    - can use SOTM
    _ really powerfull class

    disadvantages:

    Sorcerer:
    - none

    Cleric/Magee
    - none

    And these are the things that count if they meet at xp cap level whith all the top items to equip and use.
    If they meet level 1 whith only mundane equipment the things change quite a bit.

    In the hipotesis at level cap whith equipment, starting unbuffed, I see the thing like the samurai duels, when the opponents stand ready and whitout moving and usually the first that move loose.
    They go immediately invisibile whith the staff.
    They cast PFMW and go invisible.
    Next round they cast planetar, almost immediate whith robe and amulet, the planetars can see though invisibility, but probably, due to game's AI start to fight beetween themselves and, if not, don't have the speed to reach a person hasted whith the boots. draw for now.
    And here the samurai thing, both IA and CC also whith robe and amulet are not casted immediately, the first that try makes himself visible and is disrupted and toasted by dragon breath. if fails the sabe and get stunned game over otherways can survive, regenerate invisible and again draw.

    But this is only a hipotesis of a fight that can be fought in many other ways. and maybe who wins is the lucky one cause the other fails a save against glitterdust or another aoe incapacitating spell. If the caster is also luky in gating the planetar near the enemy and not near the other planetar, planetars mainly serve to reveal the oppositor's position, don't have any chance to harm him.

    I would vote for a draw, but is not possible so I abstain me.

    Being more serious

    Advantages

    Sorcerer:
    - levels faster
    - more versatility in combat

    Cleric/Magee
    - can both magic
    - can both magic in sequencers and contingiences
    - more versatility preparing the battle, rest required to memorize the choosen spells, if has to go to the battle whith the generic spells memorized every day or don't know which kind of enemy he will face less versatilitu ay all.
    _ mlee capability
    - turn undead
  • MortaelMortael Member Posts: 33
    edited January 2016
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    So why not make a post about the advantages/disadvantages of Cleric/Mage vs. Sorcerer? Polls just needlessly polarize matters that are far from dichotomous.

    This is an open debate topic.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    Cleric/Mages are considerably harder to kill, and they make the party much more sturdy thanks to Remove Fear, Death Ward, Free Action, and Chaotic Commands. A single Cleric/Mage can make an entire party shrug off a Symbol: Fear, Power Word: Stun, Wail of the Banshee, or Chaos spell.

    Sorcerers are much stronger offensively, as they get a larger number of spell slots at higher levels than other classes. When your Cleric/Mage is casting Fireball, your Sorcerer is casting Sunfire.

    I have taken a Sorcerer through SoA recently and am halfway through ToB. Currently the Sorcerer is having a bigger impact than my Conjurer due to a bunch of high-level spells. But throughout SoA, I often found the Sorcerer lacking, because it couldn't provide the diversity of spells that we needed, back when we only had one arcane spellcaster.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    Depends I think a lot on level.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    As for a PvP situation, I'd still divide it as I did before. The Cleric/Mage would be able to tank most anything the Sorcerer could throw out, thanks to the diversity of its defenses, and gradually the Cleric/Mage could wear down the Sorcerer. The advantage would shift in favor of the Sorcerer after 3 million XP, when Planetars would keep the Cleric/Mage on the defensive for tens of rounds. Eventually those PFMW spells would run out, and the Cleric/Mage would have to dedicate most of its time to running rather than spellcasting, and invisibility could not get it away from the Planetar.
  • SvarSvar Member Posts: 157
    A Cleric/Mage would have the distinct advantage of being able to heal themself. Not to mention they are able to wear heavier armour. All it would take, really, is the Cleric/Mage getting up in the Sorcerer's face and smashing them to goo before they can get a spell out.
  • Lord_TansheronLord_Tansheron Member Posts: 4,212
    Wouldn't this simply degenerate into a Time Stop battle? Whoever gets it off, wins.

    Also I imagine equipment would play a big role.
  • MrNoobyMrNooby Member Posts: 131
    I think debating who would in a PvP match up, in a game where PvP doesn't and probably never will exist is pointless.
  • elminsterelminster Member, Developer Posts: 16,317
    edited January 2016
    Lord_Tansheron said:

    Wouldn't this simply degenerate into a Time Stop battle? Whoever gets it off, wins.

    At the point where they both have Time Stop I'm not sure it even gets that far. Its really just a question of whose triple Horrid Wilting Chain Continguency (or whatever you could think of) hits first.
  • semiticgoddesssemiticgoddess Member Posts: 14,903
    @elminster @Lord_Tansheron: A high-level battle would not end that quickly. Not if the Cleric/Mage and Sorcerer know what they're doing, or are at least properly equipped.

    Time Stop can be countered with the Staff of the Magi and the Cloak of Non-Detection... or Sanctuary or Improved Invisibility and SI: Divination. You can stop time, but you can't target what you can't find. Horrid Wilting can be countered by the Cloak of Mirroring or Protection from Magical Energy.

    Damage spell? Cloak of Mirroring stops it.

    Disabling spell? Potion of Magic Shielding/Spell Immunity/Remove Fear/Death Ward/Free Action/Chaotic Commands stops it.

    Summoning spell? Just run away from it. No summoned monsters have ranged weapons.

    Imprisonment? Physical attacks? Protection from Magic scroll? Invisibility stops it all.

    A stalemate is more likely.
  • sluckerssluckers Member Posts: 280
    edited January 2016
    Well, against 'mantle' clerics have +5 weapons available. Against Pro. Magical Weapons, they can conjure a flame sword that hits unenchanted and deals fire through stoneskin. The cleric could also pull off some victory with harm or slay living, probably, depending on whether those spell hits count as enchanted or not. None of the weapons protection spells defend a spellcaster completely, to the attacker need only switch to the right weapon to bypass that, if it comes to physical combat.

    I don't actually know if there is a way for a mage to completely defend themselves from a cleric. If there is, a cleric/mage would be able to match. Not that it would matter if both made themselves immune to all the big spells; A sorcerer would have no hope in physical combat, which is what it would come too if neither could outspell the other.

    I don't think the sorcerer, with more high level spell castings, would gain an advantage from that. Most everything can be defended against with lower level protections. Horrid wilting is easily negated by a number of lower level protections that have long durations, to use an example.

    It's a pointless mental exercise without knowing who is controlling who and what they favour, or what style they are going for. I'm pretty sure that no matter what anyone says, someone could come along and mention a way to counter it, at which point the other person or even someone else would come along and mention a way to counter the countermove. Without any details at all, this question is far, far too nebulous to form a convincing response.

    In the end, unless there is something concrete to go on, like a set spell list showing what these fighters are actually going in to this battle with, it comes down to who can defend themselves from the wider breath of threats or work around the most potential defences or deal damage in the most amount of ways. It comes down to who has the most 'potential'. Cleric/mage, I believe, has the sorcerer beat on that one.

    Whatever... my money's on it degenerating into a slap fight. Cleric wins with more hitpoints and better thaco. Sorcerer leaves with rosey bottom.

    Or they wipe each other out at the same time with Dragon Breath HLAs or the apparently popular triple horrid wilting, assuming they go for damage right out of the gate without buffs.
    Post edited by sluckers on
  • GoturalGotural Member Posts: 1,229
    edited January 2016
    It depends solely of what spells they put in their Chain Contingency and Spell Trigger.

    If one of them starts the fight with ADHW x 3 and the other with Prot from the Elements + two others buff, the latter will easily win for example.
    Post edited by Gotural on
  • PantalionPantalion Member Posts: 2,137
    Really it's all about equipment, pre-buff, level and stats, especially the first two. This may well end up being an endless project image battle where both sides use Spell Trap loops to keep going indefinitely.

    Voting C/M because there's more they can do to tank what the sorcerer can do than vice versa, and because Chain Contingency Implosion x3 is hilariously fatal.
  • SkatanSkatan Member, Moderator Posts: 5,352
    sluckers said:


    It's a pointless mental exercise without knowing who is controlling who and what they favour, or what style they are going for. I'm pretty sure that no matter what anyone says, someone could come along and mention a way to counter it, at which point the other person or even someone else would come along and mention a way to counter the countermove. Without any details at all, this question is far, far too nebulous to form a convincing response.

    This.
  • MrNoobyMrNooby Member Posts: 131
    semiticgod said:

    @elminster @Lord_Tansheron: A high-level battle would not end that quickly. Not if the Cleric/Mage and Sorcerer know what they're doing, or are at least properly equipped.

    Time Stop can be countered with the Staff of the Magi and the Cloak of Non-Detection... or Sanctuary or Improved Invisibility and SI: Divination. You can stop time, but you can't target what you can't find. Horrid Wilting can be countered by the Cloak of Mirroring or Protection from Magical Energy.

    Damage spell? Cloak of Mirroring stops it.

    Disabling spell? Potion of Magic Shielding/Spell Immunity/Remove Fear/Death Ward/Free Action/Chaotic Commands stops it.

    Summoning spell? Just run away from it. No summoned monsters have ranged weapons.

    Imprisonment? Physical attacks? Protection from Magic scroll? Invisibility stops it all.

    A stalemate is more likely.


    Or who dies of boredom first.
  • FinneousPJFinneousPJ Member Posts: 6,455
    sluckers said:


    It's a pointless mental exercise without knowing who is controlling who and what they favour, or what style they are going for. I'm pretty sure that no matter what anyone says, someone could come along and mention a way to counter it, at which point the other person or even someone else would come along and mention a way to counter the countermove. Without any details at all, this question is far, far too nebulous to form a convincing response.

    I see your point, but the CM cannot adjust spells on the fly. If he has not prepared the counter-counterspell, he's out of luck. And I don't think he can reasonably have all options available. The sorcerer has an advantage there IMO.

  • JuliusBorisovJuliusBorisov Member, Administrator, Moderator, Developer Posts: 22,758
    I really advice this thread - https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/45704/sorc-vs-wild-mage-vs-cleric-mage-2016-edition-with-scs#latest - lot's of intel on the question in the OP here.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    At hight level and whith best equipment both are immune to phisical damage and can not be targeted whith spells. And the simple reason for that is SoTM. Cleric casts harm and nobody on sight to hit, whith the staff even if a true sight is active the oppositor can become invisible again in no time, and whith the staff and a certain cloack true sight doesn't even work. And so on.
    The staff also pose some problems whith CC 3xADHW and similar, because usually them are triggered on enemy seen. Some workovers can be found, and whith the correct trigger condition CC can hit invisible characters. And this can be the key to some masterpiece of cheese (good cheese, the kind that doesn't leed to cheap tactic but solve an apparently impossible problem) that can solve the stalemate condition.
    Aoe spells can hit invisible characters but whith an invisible oppositor is not easy to land them in the correct place, also usually they don't kill immediately and is possible to run away and regenerate whith a ring while invisible. Some aoe can be deadly, like web if the oppositor fails the save, but again we have a ring that negates it.
    I think that the battle can be resolved only by an error of a player or maybe whith some genial kind of cheese otherway the stalemate is the only end I see possible.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Pantalion said:


    Assuming no gear based protections or bonus spells, no Project Image, Time Stop or Wish

    Ok whith no gear based protections, but this is only one of the possible scenaries for the battle.
    But why to nerf 3 of the most powerfull resouces of the sorcerer, resources that are implemented in the game as it is?
    Then I can assume no phisical attacks, and this is as arbitrary as your assuming......
    Also given the same xp for both the sorc will have highter level so will have a really powefull spell, remove magic, has a hight chance of completely debuffing the C/M while the same spell from the C/M have little chance to work.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    This thread epitomizes why I don't like PvP. Partly because I know that whoever I'm fighting against is going to have better strategies than me, and partly because it's never been part of the appeal for playing an RPG, for me. Player characters aren't meant to fight other player characters; that's why monster stat blocks don't look like character sheets.

    But for myself, I would favor the Cleric/Mage. The Sorcerer has flexibility within their known spells, but if the Sorcerer didn't plan things correctly as they were leveling up, they won't have the right tools for most situations; unless you're building your Sorcerer to be a mage-killer (which seems like an odd way to live your life, as a Sorcerer), the Cleric/Mage has the advantage of being able to adapt. Take an average Sorcerer from your typical game (i.e. a character built around dungeon crawling and tearing apart monsters) and an average Cleric/Mage from the same game, and then give each of them a day to prepare, and the Cleric/Mage is going to have the advantage because they can change what spells to prepare. Don't give them the day to prepare, and the Sorcerer might have an edge, if they planned their spell selection correctly.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Dee said:


    But for myself, I would favor the Cleric/Mage. The Sorcerer has flexibility within their known spells, but if the Sorcerer didn't plan things correctly as they were leveling up, they won't have the right tools for most situations; unless you're building your Sorcerer to be a mage-killer.......

    My last sorcerer was born as a soloer, though a modded game, then after underdark recruited a party.
    He was able to deal whith mages as well as undeads, improoved mind flyers and plain fighters, and after was as good in a party as soloing. May be in the party he would be a little better whith remove magic instead of dilpel magic, but these are detalis.
    You can certainly screw up your sorc choosing the wrong spells or choosing different spells that basically have the same effect, building an effective sorc need a good knowledge of BG2 magic system and a little planning, but a sorc whith the (sorry, a) good selection of spells has unmathed flexibility and can deal whith every kind of foe. Whitout having to prepare himself before the battle or even know what he will have to fight. A specialized sorcerer (mage killer sorc, damage dealer and so on) is often only a badly built sorcerer who trade flexibility for something he can alredy do.
  • DeeDee Member Posts: 10,447
    gorgonzola said:

    Dee said:


    But for myself, I would favor the Cleric/Mage. The Sorcerer has flexibility within their known spells, but if the Sorcerer didn't plan things correctly as they were leveling up, they won't have the right tools for most situations; unless you're building your Sorcerer to be a mage-killer.......

    My last sorcerer was born as a soloer, though a modded game, then after underdark recruited a party.
    He was able to deal whith mages as well as undeads, improoved mind flyers and plain fighters, and after was as good in a party as soloing. May be in the party he would be a little better whith remove magic instead of dilpel magic, but these are detalis.
    You can certainly screw up your sorc choosing the wrong spells or choosing different spells that basically have the same effect, building an effective sorc need a good knowledge of BG2 magic system and a little planning, but a sorc whith the (sorry, a) good selection of spells has unmathed flexibility and can deal whith every kind of foe. Whitout having to prepare himself before the battle or even know what he will have to fight. A specialized sorcerer (mage killer sorc, damage dealer and so on) is often only a badly built sorcerer who trade flexibility for something he can alredy do.
    That's a fair point. And the Sorcerer will have spent his career growing intimately familiar with his tools, knowing when and how to use them. A Cleric/Mage may know a broader range of spells, but they'll have less familiarity with any given one of them.

    Unless of course the Cleric/Mage is more experienced. But the same could be said of the Sorcerer.
  • gorgonzolagorgonzola Member Posts: 3,864
    Assuming Project Image, Wish, and 18 Wisdom , a Sorcerer has infinite level 1-2 spellslots, infinite level 3 spellslots, and infinite level 4 & 5 spells, along with infinite level 6 and infinite level 7.
    He will have also infinite level 8 & 9 level spellslots.

    And in another thread I am actually promoting C/M as one of the most powerfull classes of the game, don't get me wrong, I love C/Mages, I deeply respect them and I think that are a great fun to play and that the majority of players, me included, play them at a fraction of their true potential.

    But have you ever tried a sorcerer? :smiley:


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