@Nuin, well, it is the thought of leaving someone I just rescued, behind in a cold, dark and sinister place that bugs me a hell lot. It is like making no sense if I bother to make that trip all the way to Spellhold to rescue anyone for that matter, why would I abandon them to find their way out alone?.
I can't even recall any history about any rescue of any kind that the rescued get left behind (whats the point of the rescue then?). It is not like Imoene is from the enemy camp and the rescue is made to extract valuable tactical info or something (even in those case, the rescued will still be brought to a safe spot before attempting to extract or convince otherwise).
Well, I just have to pretend I happened to chance upon Imoene while pursuing that Irenicus guy and the rescue is somewhat incidental ....
and the times I do use her, I still have Jan in the party and Immy is used as a mage rather than being the party's thief.
but both Imoen (BG2 wise) and Nalia are substantially true class mages. True class mages whith some benefits added at a very little cost, the XP needed for lev 4 or 3 thief. The benefits are the ability to deal whith traps and locks, the ones whithout a hard check, and to equip thief weapons (and armours loosing the ability to cast). And to abuse the thief potion stacking and become for a short time real thieves. As mages they are almost as good as true class ones, they will have almost the same level and casting capability, just will be able to cast ADHW a couple of monsters later, so using them as mages is their better use. Taking advantage of their added benefits even if there is a true thief in the party, as the thief will be free to improove other usefull thief skills while they deal whith traps and locks.
many adults will find the idea of an Imoen romance repulsive.
an will find also the idea of stealing and pickpoketing, massacrating other people, collaborating whith evil and bloodthirsty people very repulsive. In their real life. RPing a game they will have a lot of fun in doing those things, and RPing wise we have no evidence that in the world we are roleplayng romancing a half sister is percived as repulsive as we do. Same whith that mod where a 15 year old female paladin is romanceable (I never tried it, but for other reasons), in our middle age, and I suppose also in FR world, was quite frequent for a 15 years woman to be married and rise babies. And if we RP our world 100 years ago we must percive, RP wise, romancing people of our same sex in a different way, at that time it was condamned by society, now is widely accepted.
Like others, I have a hard time kicking her out of the party. I only play good or neutral parties and RP wise I can't say "I guess you will die here"
What I would really like would be for the devs to allow the party to make one of those Neera necklaces that would bring her back to the stronghold. "Here squeeze this and you will brought to a castle where you will surrounded by guards . . . a sphere where you will be guarded by an invincible golem . . . err, a cabin where you will guarded by a moose?"
Anyway, you get to rescue her and keep your party.
Either that or let her be a single class thief so she could actually serve as replacement for Yoshimo.
Hey @Dee -- is either option in the realm of possibility?
Either option is now in the realm of possibility, if you allow yourelf the use of console, mods ans EEKeeper. you can drop one of your comrades, take her, teleport to Copper Coronet, leave her there and teleport back to rescue your comrade, a simple cheat that do exactly what you are asking. And there is a mod to change class of NPC's or you can change her to Thief whith EEkeeper.
RP wise having her back to town and not in the party leave a big problem, her lost soul.
@Bubbles , I tried to a lot of times without result. But with a CN Mage Charname I casted polymorph other on her and kept her in the inventory as my familiar.
many adults will find the idea of an Imoen romance repulsive.
an will find also the idea of stealing and pickpoketing, massacrating other people, collaborating whith evil and bloodthirsty people very repulsive. In their real life. RPing a game they will have a lot of fun in doing those things, and RPing wise we have no evidence that in the world we are roleplayng romancing a half sister is percived as repulsive as we do. Same whith that mod where a 15 year old female paladin is romanceable (I never tried it, but for other reasons), in our middle age, and I suppose also in FR world, was quite frequent for a 15 years woman to be married and rise babies. And if we RP our world 100 years ago we must percive, RP wise, romancing people of our same sex in a different way, at that time it was condamned by society, now is widely accepted.
No. Sibling romance is taboo even in the Forgotten Realms, at least among good and neutral societies. AFAIK, it's even looked down upon even among intelligent, evil races like the Drow. FG may be based on the medieval era, but that world is actually a lot more advanced than the actual Middle Ages . It's just that magic has replaced most of modern technology.
Stealing and pickpocketing is commonplace in third world countries, and even in those places sibling romance is considered taboo. Death, on the other hand, has different connotations in FG. That's because there IS life after death there, not to mention resurrection/the raising of the dead/reincarnation.
I find it almost impossible to leave Imoen behind in the first game, as I am overly fond of the dual-class mechanic (and have been since I first picked up a Players Handbook, around 1982). She is deliberately statted to be the perfect dual-class companion in the first game, with the best mechanical stats, and the right class combo to get the most levels out of the deal. I have learned that the first game plays better dualing at 6th, rather than 7th, but otherwise little has changed with how I play Immy since I grabbed the original game on launch.
In BG2 I almost never take her unless I set that out as a role-playing objective from the very start. By the time I get there, she is simply too far off the xp curve of the rest of the party, in a way that will never catch up. For the longest time I was hampered by the lack of a thief NPC, either playing a thief of some kind myself, or coping with Nalia/Yoshi as the emergency option. I always overlooked Jan as he was so annoying, it never registered that he was a thief multi! Since picking up BG2EE though, I have found him to be much less annoying than I remembered, and given that is not down to any new lines, I suspect I may have been unduly harsh on him over the years...
End result, Immy is essential for the first game, nothing but the McGuffin to drive the plot in the second, and I am curious (to say the least) how she will fit into the Siege of Dragonspear.
@Bubbles , I tried to a lot of times without result. But with a CN Mage Charname I casted polymorph other on her and kept her in the inventory as my familiar.
Is that possible? If it is I would gladly polymorph Imoen to a squirrel or something (since she always try to act cute, so let her be really "cute"). Anyway I am more fond of 4-men party as the path-finding tend not to messed up as badly (the 5th squirrel in the bag ^^).
Either option is now in the realm of possibility, if you allow yourelf the use of console, mods ans EEKeeper. you can drop one of your comrades, take her, teleport to Copper Coronet, leave her there and teleport back to rescue your comrade, a simple cheat that do exactly what you are asking. And there is a mod to change class of NPC's or you can change her to Thief whith EEkeeper.
RP wise having her back to town and not in the party leave a big problem, her lost soul.
Yeah, but I'd like it put into the game And good point on the missing soul I'm imaging that you could still have the 'my soul is back' conversation after Bohdi dies.
Yes, Imoen was a McGuffin and the original plot was better. If someone felt like making an 'original plot restored' mod I'd play it.
@killerrabbit, @GreenWarlock, I don't think that she is only a McGuffin, not in all runs and parties. If you go to Spellood quite early, even whitout rushing, whith some scroll bags well filled and use the same tactic most dual charnames use she will close part of the level gap immediately. And being a single class mage, whith some benefits added, she will close the gap in the long run. An archmage that can use Tugian or Gesen Bow, Angurvadal or Celestial Fury and can deal whith traps and locks is not a McGuffin, even in ToB has a power comparable to the one of most NPCs.
Whith less than 6 people party I used this strategy: 1- recruit her and immediately drop her telling to wait me there. 2- recruit her before moving to a new area and drop her just after the area is reached, in the Underdark she can wait near the merchant tent and be rescued only before talking to Adalon and giving her the egg. 3- When in town I drop her in CC and take her back when I move to Bodhi's lair, there drop her and recruit only before the last battle whith the vampire.
Only minimal XP lost on her, good RP reason to do so, I want to protect my little underlevelled sister, Immy rescued and soul restored, everybody is happy.
@gorgonzola, I am currently trying to just go through a run with the 5 EE NPCs with minimum contact with other npcs (only if quests require them such as planar sphere I bring the NPC just to open door and drop him). For the case of Imoen ... well this time round I just pretend she hides in shadows trailing my party to safety i guess ....
@Bubbles, I know about your 5 EE NPCs run and that my "everybody is happy" strategy is not possible for you. I can't think of any workaround and pretending that she hides in shadows and follow you is a good way to deal whith your problem.
I posted for people whith less than 6 party that share your feeling about Imoen, at least the idea of leaving her, soul drainded, in Spellood, and for some reason don't want her in the party and don't want to lose XP on her.
@gorgonzola, if not for that cute Grizzly, which I have never tried doing a run with, as well as all 5 of them ofc, I would gladly have Imoen back in that Grizzly slot ^^ (both of them are somewhat equally adorable in a certain sense xD). And it never occur to me having a bear in the party can be quite fun too ^^ (my Neera now has her "ranger" protector a.k.a Wilson ^^).
@Bubbles, I play notEE so for me no cute Grizzy bear, but I understand your point. But in one of my future runs I want to try the NPC Boo mod, that make the space hamster a playable NPC, I don't know if is EE compatibile.
@gorgonzola, I used to have the non-EE, some spring cleaning I throw it away then some years later, I bought the full all-in-1 DVD thing, then I decided to go EE hahaha (I still havent bought the BG1EE yet though). For Non-EE I like to install UB mod (to see some loose ends get tied up) + a little more difficulties as UB added a few extra mobs here and there.
@gorgonzola, UB let me feel happier about some of the storylines as the BG2 project originally outgrew itself during the design stage so much so that they have to suddenly cut off many things due to budget+dateline. I am a quest-lover ^^ UB helps to quench that thirst ^^.
and the times I do use her, I still have Jan in the party and Immy is used as a mage rather than being the party's thief.
but both Imoen (BG2 wise) and Nalia are substantially true class mages. True class mages whith some benefits added at a very little cost, the XP needed for lev 4 or 3 thief. The benefits are the ability to deal whith traps and locks, the ones whithout a hard check, and to equip thief weapons (and armours loosing the ability to cast). And to abuse the thief potion stacking and become for a short time real thieves. As mages they are almost as good as true class ones, they will have almost the same level and casting capability, just will be able to cast ADHW a couple of monsters later, so using them as mages is their better use. Taking advantage of their added benefits even if there is a true thief in the party, as the thief will be free to improove other usefull thief skills while they deal whith traps and locks.
I've read your post three times now, but I still don't understand if you are debating me or agreeing with me.. You seem to contradict yourself. First you state that using the mage (Immy and Nalia) as only a mage, is not fully utilizing their power. Then you state that using the "pure" mages (Immy and Nalia) as pure mages, just a few thousand xp points behind, is their better use. Anyways..
.. I don't see the need for more than one thief to handle locks and traps, thus with Jan in the party (who's a far, far superior thief who continues to level and can be specced for either utility, stealth or even both), he does that and Immy is primarly a mage with a bow. I don't see the point of potion stacking on Immy when you got Jan to handle pickpocketing/traps/locks/everything else for the party. I don't see the need to give her an armor to reduce her spell casting. I don't see the need to have two party members open locks and disarm traps.
@Skatan, I agree whith you when you say that she, as a thief, is redundant if you have Jan or another real thief. But useful in a party with no othher thief. And I find marginally useful to have 2 thieves exploring dungeons, one hidden and the second, a footstep back, detecting traps (I actually do it in the runs where I try to not use metagaming knowledge or exploring areas of new mod quests). I disagree about thinking at her as a thief, at least in BG2 and ToB, her basic thief skills are useful only for parties whitout other thieves. And I don't disagree with you since you stated that you use her as a mage, I disagree with people that say that she is uderpowered and not useful to the party. As a mage she is maybe the better one in the game, less spells then Edwin, but no school restriction, ways to counter her being underlevelled after you rescue her, thief weapons allowed so better cast and attack. About armour in the "no cast" areas of WK or in few other situations a mage with Celestial Fury and better AC is a bonus, marginal but real one.
My point was not agree or debate with you, I quoted you only to expand a little the subject about how much she is mage or rogue. Also in my tipical parties she is not so usefull at all, as usually I have a real thief and a lot of casters, but my casters, if not sorc or bard, are something/M and I want that sometning to be more than 4lev thief, maybe fighter, maybe cleric multi, maybe thief multi. How she is useful, as mage, as thief or as a combination of the 2, depends on the party composition, but she don't lack power, she is not an uderpowered toon whose existence is only plot realted, that was my point.
I tried only on W7 32bit. Actually I use W7 64bit, but I have only bg2 and tob on another xp pc. Before I had bg2 & tob on a win7 32 and they worked fine. With them is better to don't install in the usual program folder, should be Programs(x86) or something like that, but create a new folder in C:, like C:/Mybaldurgames/ and choose to install there. There are some problems with those old games installed in the default program folder, mainly if you don't play from the administrator account, this way I never had problems. Just some resolution settings don't work, and i think is more a graphic card issue then a OS issue, but at least one setting will work. So I suppose that also with the original BG1 on 64bit is the same. Give it a try and tell us.
@gorgonzola I hardly play BG!+ToSC even in the early days. I have forgotten so much about the quests which means it would be really fun to run around almost blind ^^. A couple of years ago, I did try installing BG! in win7-64bit but something weird happened that makes me stop playing it (I can't recall what happened now). I think it has something to do with the Shadowkeeper I used to mod something, it refused to see what I changed and remembered something else.. not sure if that is due to compatibility or the fact I was using SSD not HDD for C drive (SSD can be a hassle when you use old software as the software still see what you deleted).
I guess it was something realted to installing it in the default program folder and installing it as I suggested avoid the problem. I am not a PC expert, but I think that win7 try to protect the programs, but only the ones installed in the default x86 and 64bit folders. It refused to see what you changed because it was trying to protect the system from unwanted and malicious or harmful changes, and the old programs can not deal with that OS feature. Also I have a SSD C drive, so if you give it a try I am really interested about as in the future I want to have the bg games also on my laptop and not only on the very old notebook I use now (that is useful because there are situations where I am not at home and I have spare time to play bg).
@gorgonzola Hehe, well he is a very powerful fighter. If at the rate things are going and based on FR game rules, that bear will be a Demi-god by end of ToB ^^.
Comments
I can't even recall any history about any rescue of any kind that the rescued get left behind (whats the point of the rescue then?). It is not like Imoene is from the enemy camp and the rescue is made to extract valuable tactical info or something (even in those case, the rescued will still be brought to a safe spot before attempting to extract or convince otherwise).
Well, I just have to pretend I happened to chance upon Imoene while pursuing that Irenicus guy and the rescue is somewhat incidental ....
True class mages whith some benefits added at a very little cost, the XP needed for lev 4 or 3 thief.
The benefits are the ability to deal whith traps and locks, the ones whithout a hard check, and to equip thief weapons (and armours loosing the ability to cast). And to abuse the thief potion stacking and become for a short time real thieves.
As mages they are almost as good as true class ones, they will have almost the same level and casting capability, just will be able to cast ADHW a couple of monsters later, so using them as mages is their better use. Taking advantage of their added benefits even if there is a true thief in the party, as the thief will be free to improove other usefull thief skills while they deal whith traps and locks.
Back on topic an will find also the idea of stealing and pickpoketing, massacrating other people, collaborating whith evil and bloodthirsty people very repulsive. In their real life.
RPing a game they will have a lot of fun in doing those things, and RPing wise we have no evidence that in the world we are roleplayng romancing a half sister is percived as repulsive as we do. Same whith that mod where a 15 year old female paladin is romanceable (I never tried it, but for other reasons), in our middle age, and I suppose also in FR world, was quite frequent for a 15 years woman to be married and rise babies. And if we RP our world 100 years ago we must percive, RP wise, romancing people of our same sex in a different way, at that time it was condamned by society, now is widely accepted.
What I would really like would be for the devs to allow the party to make one of those Neera necklaces that would bring her back to the stronghold. "Here squeeze this and you will brought to a castle where you will surrounded by guards . . . a sphere where you will be guarded by an invincible golem . . . err, a cabin where you will guarded by a moose?"
Anyway, you get to rescue her and keep your party.
Either that or let her be a single class thief so she could actually serve as replacement for Yoshimo.
Hey @Dee -- is either option in the realm of possibility?
you can drop one of your comrades, take her, teleport to Copper Coronet, leave her there and teleport back to rescue your comrade, a simple cheat that do exactly what you are asking.
And there is a mod to change class of NPC's or you can change her to Thief whith EEkeeper.
RP wise having her back to town and not in the party leave a big problem, her lost soul.
But with a CN Mage Charname I casted polymorph other on her and kept her in the inventory as my familiar.
FG may be based on the medieval era, but that world is actually a lot more advanced than the actual Middle Ages . It's just that magic has replaced most of modern technology.
Stealing and pickpocketing is commonplace in third world countries, and even in those places sibling romance is considered taboo. Death, on the other hand, has different connotations in FG. That's because there IS life after death there, not to mention resurrection/the raising of the dead/reincarnation.
In BG2 I almost never take her unless I set that out as a role-playing objective from the very start. By the time I get there, she is simply too far off the xp curve of the rest of the party, in a way that will never catch up. For the longest time I was hampered by the lack of a thief NPC, either playing a thief of some kind myself, or coping with Nalia/Yoshi as the emergency option. I always overlooked Jan as he was so annoying, it never registered that he was a thief multi! Since picking up BG2EE though, I have found him to be much less annoying than I remembered, and given that is not down to any new lines, I suspect I may have been unduly harsh on him over the years...
End result, Immy is essential for the first game, nothing but the McGuffin to drive the plot in the second, and I am curious (to say the least) how she will fit into the Siege of Dragonspear.
Yes, Imoen was a McGuffin and the original plot was better. If someone felt like making an 'original plot restored' mod I'd play it.
@killerrabbit, @GreenWarlock, I don't think that she is only a McGuffin, not in all runs and parties. If you go to Spellood quite early, even whitout rushing, whith some scroll bags well filled and use the same tactic most dual charnames use she will close part of the level gap immediately. And being a single class mage, whith some benefits added, she will close the gap in the long run. An archmage that can use Tugian or Gesen Bow, Angurvadal or Celestial Fury and can deal whith traps and locks is not a McGuffin, even in ToB has a power comparable to the one of most NPCs.
1- recruit her and immediately drop her telling to wait me there.
2- recruit her before moving to a new area and drop her just after the area is reached, in the Underdark she can wait near the merchant tent and be rescued only before talking to Adalon and giving her the egg.
3- When in town I drop her in CC and take her back when I move to Bodhi's lair, there drop her and recruit only before the last battle whith the vampire.
Only minimal XP lost on her, good RP reason to do so, I want to protect my little underlevelled sister, Immy rescued and soul restored, everybody is happy.
For the case of Imoen ... well this time round I just pretend she hides in shadows trailing my party to safety i guess ....
I posted for people whith less than 6 party that share your feeling about Imoen, at least the idea of leaving her, soul drainded, in Spellood, and for some reason don't want her in the party and don't want to lose XP on her.
And it never occur to me having a bear in the party can be quite fun too ^^ (my Neera now has her "ranger" protector a.k.a Wilson ^^).
But in one of my future runs I want to try the NPC Boo mod, that make the space hamster a playable NPC, I don't know if is EE compatibile.
http://www.sorcerers.net/Games/BG2/boonpc.php
I bought the full all-in-1 DVD thing, then I decided to go EE hahaha (I still havent bought the BG1EE yet though).
For Non-EE I like to install UB mod (to see some loose ends get tied up) + a little more difficulties as UB added a few extra mobs here and there.
UB is one of the mods I never tried and that I want to try before I'll go EE, good to know that you recommend it.
I am a quest-lover ^^ UB helps to quench that thirst ^^.
.. I don't see the need for more than one thief to handle locks and traps, thus with Jan in the party (who's a far, far superior thief who continues to level and can be specced for either utility, stealth or even both), he does that and Immy is primarly a mage with a bow. I don't see the point of potion stacking on Immy when you got Jan to handle pickpocketing/traps/locks/everything else for the party. I don't see the need to give her an armor to reduce her spell casting. I don't see the need to have two party members open locks and disarm traps.
I agree whith you when you say that she, as a thief, is redundant if you have Jan or another real thief. But useful in a party with no othher thief. And I find marginally useful to have 2 thieves exploring dungeons, one hidden and the second, a footstep back, detecting traps (I actually do it in the runs where I try to not use metagaming knowledge or exploring areas of new mod quests).
I disagree about thinking at her as a thief, at least in BG2 and ToB, her basic thief skills are useful only for parties whitout other thieves. And I don't disagree with you since you stated that you use her as a mage, I disagree with people that say that she is uderpowered and not useful to the party.
As a mage she is maybe the better one in the game, less spells then Edwin, but no school restriction, ways to counter her being underlevelled after you rescue her, thief weapons allowed so better cast and attack.
About armour in the "no cast" areas of WK or in few other situations a mage with Celestial Fury and better AC is a bonus, marginal but real one.
My point was not agree or debate with you, I quoted you only to expand a little the subject about how much she is mage or rogue.
Also in my tipical parties she is not so usefull at all, as usually I have a real thief and a lot of casters, but my casters, if not sorc or bard, are something/M and I want that sometning to be more than 4lev thief, maybe fighter, maybe cleric multi, maybe thief multi.
How she is useful, as mage, as thief or as a combination of the 2, depends on the party composition, but she don't lack power, she is not an uderpowered toon whose existence is only plot realted, that was my point.
Off topic, does the old BG1 works in windows 7-64bit?
Actually I use W7 64bit, but I have only bg2 and tob on another xp pc.
Before I had bg2 & tob on a win7 32 and they worked fine. With them is better to don't install in the usual program folder, should be Programs(x86) or something like that, but create a new folder in C:, like C:/Mybaldurgames/ and choose to install there.
There are some problems with those old games installed in the default program folder, mainly if you don't play from the administrator account, this way I never had problems. Just some resolution settings don't work, and i think is more a graphic card issue then a OS issue, but at least one setting will work.
So I suppose that also with the original BG1 on 64bit is the same.
Give it a try and tell us.
I hardly play BG!+ToSC even in the early days. I have forgotten so much about the quests which means it would be really fun to run around almost blind ^^. A couple of years ago, I did try installing BG! in win7-64bit but something weird happened that makes me stop playing it (I can't recall what happened now). I think it has something to do with the Shadowkeeper I used to mod something, it refused to see what I changed and remembered something else.. not sure if that is due to compatibility or the fact I was using SSD not HDD for C drive (SSD can be a hassle when you use old software as the software still see what you deleted).
I am not a PC expert, but I think that win7 try to protect the programs, but only the ones installed in the default x86 and 64bit folders. It refused to see what you changed because it was trying to protect the system from unwanted and malicious or harmful changes, and the old programs can not deal with that OS feature.
Also I have a SSD C drive, so if you give it a try I am really interested about as in the future I want to have the bg games also on my laptop and not only on the very old notebook I use now (that is useful because there are situations where I am not at home and I have spare time to play bg).
Hmmm very tempting ... arrgghhh ok I guess I shall do it soon after I figure out what to do with the bear in my party ^^.
Hehe, well he is a very powerful fighter.
If at the rate things are going and based on FR game rules, that bear will be a Demi-god by end of ToB ^^.