Is Vhailor's Helm Considered Cheesy for a Solo Run?
wraith5641
Member Posts: 500
I recently came back to Baldur's Gate in the last few weeks after nearly a year of not playing it. I started a solo run for the whole trilogy as a Thief (I actually dualed from a Fighter at level 3 for the extra THAC0, Grand Mastery, weapon use, and hit points), and now I've reached the Underdark. I have to say, the most useful item so far has been Vhailor's Helm. Combine it with Improved Haste and Assassination, and you can half a group of enemies in seconds. The problem is that it feels cheesy at times, because it allows you to use scrolls over and over again without losing the item. I told myself when I got to Shadows of Amn that I wouldn't abuse the green scrolls, and I haven't. But I make use of scrolls such as Tenser's Transformation and Mislead, among other scrolls that I hoarded. This gives a HUGE buff to my simulacrum, to the point where it's like having a juggernaught fighting alongside me. Is this a legitimate solo tactic? It makes difficult fights seem easy.
What are your thoughts?
What are your thoughts?
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Comments
If you feel it makes things to easy, you can stop using it. Or not. It's entirely and 100% up to you and what you want your game to be.
BG is a game I've always been good at, but there are objectively better players than me. I want to be as good as them. What's wrong with that? My enjoyment comes from trying to be as good as everyone else
That said, I don't think it's too gamebreaking if you are playing a solo Thief. After all, F/Ms can cast spells with their Simulacrum and it's perfectly legit.
A thief who, all of a sudden, can cast level 9 spells...
But there is an other way, make yourself less deadly. You can choose to have sub optimal stats, play also the not so powerful classes (that once you play them or even better solo them reveal themselves to be a lot more powerful then you believe), don't go always for the power NPCs. And you can limit yourself in a lot of things, using scrolls and charge items from a clone is only an example, but also don't use some easy or too OP tactics, certain items, tricks to lower the down time of your duals and so on.
And this way is as good as the other one, and they are not in opposition, you can use something from the first and something from the second to set your personal level of challenge. According to your tastes.
Because some of us like the idea to be a powerful one that defeats powerful enemies, others prefer a more ordinary charname.
But there are more reasons, imo also more important reasons, the more you nerf yourself (in using some spells and items or some use of the clones, not in giving yourself low stats) the more you limit the possible tactics and experimentation. Playing a mage without RoV in not only more challenging, but make a lot of tactics impossible, after the TS he will cast almost always the 2 ADHW as if he waits the second turn to cast IA a little time is remaining for other effective tactics. With the robe he have a lot more options, time enough to cast spells that lower saves and magical resistance, buff the party, debuff the enemies, crowd control spells and so on. He can be a lot more creative in his TS. But playing without RoV make things like the duration of the casting or the effectiveness of the spell in that situation more relevant and the risk of being disrupted is rised, a good timing is needed. There is some good in both ways, well beyond liking to play a normal guy or a superman.
@wraith5641.
You say " there are objectively better players than me. I want to be as good as them." and that is wonderful.
Let me only suggest you to be a good player IN YOUR OWN WAY, don't try to be the photocopy of someone else, find the challenge premises that YOU like, not the ones that others like and use.
And experiment, find your own tactics, your own style, the one that give YOU fun. I love backstabbing and setting traps and transforming cleric mages in terrific mlee fighters, some other can find it boring and requiring too much micromanaging. Others like to optimize their fighters to the maximum possible damage, comparing weapons, APRs, effectiveness of different HLAs, I find it boring and do it (as I am a PWGamer), but only to a certain extent.
Ask yourself "what I REALLY enjoy to do in this game? What REALLY give me fun?".
Then do it, the BEST way that you can.......
[spoiler=examples] Using the green scroll to make yourself immune to magic is not cheesy, using it on an enemy mage to prevent him from casting is cheesy, using clerical Magic Resistance on yourself is not cheesy, using it on a dragon to lower his MR is cheesy (the spell has no save because is supposed to be used on the party and not on enemies, is also a blue spell, color that is associated with beneficial spells, not to attack ones) [/spoiler]
For me cheese is exploiting the game, as scrolls from clones are normally castable imo there is no exploit. And as the Mislead clone can not do it there is no technical reason, is a developers choice. So for me also using the Mislead clone of a bard to sing is not cheesy, that and moving are the only things the developers left to him.
But the infinite use of consumable items using clones, if not cheesy, is OP.
And imho there is nothing wrong in both cheesy and OP, but nerfing them is a good way to rise the callenge.
there is another really OP use of the helm
[spoiler=please don't reat it...] 2 wish scrolls in WK, 1 in Saradush, potion to rise WIS, a high level thief with UAI or every class with a little of mage can wish for rest (and another use of the helm) spending only 3 rounds of the clone life and a potion. THAT is nasty stinkin' gorgonzola cheese..... [/spoiler]
To me, if you go on a no-reload run, you should do every trick you can do. I think it's absolutely fine to use a Simulacrum from the helmet, even combined with the Protection from Magic scroll, - if there're no other alternatives.
If you're on a no-reload run, you should think foremost about making it to the end. This is when using this item is not cheesy at all.
This is my opinion from a discussion with @Blackraven some time back.
But if you play with reloads, I would use this helmet only in ToB, not in SoA.
Choose how owerpower the enemies or underpower yourself according to the way that give you more fun.
You are the king of your game, you make the laws, be a good ruler.
But since I'm the logical type of guy, I mostly see logic as more important than cheese or no cheese and I want to put that in here.
What is it that fuels the spell when you use a scroll? It's the scroll itself (in combination with the one reading it). Is the scroll really there? Not really.. So what is fueling the spell? With items you can imagine the original item lending his power to the simulacrum, but if a one time item lends it power, it should burn out.
So I would say that logic says that one time items shouldn't be possible to use for a simulacrum, or perhaps better to say that if they are used, the original item should really disappear.
Nope, pure mage as in a guy without a robe and without a stick.
But since that description only is half true I can say that I allowed him to use only magical gear and never any weapons. So translated to BG, he basically ran around the whole game using only wands and other charged/one time/daily use items. You can say I had to be creative.
I saw a guy on YouTube who completed BG1 as a Mage without pressing the "Level Up" button once. Very impressive, I have to say!
And even if your simulacrum can cast from scrolls in its quickslot, it is still limited to only three different spells with probably 1 to 3 cast each depending on your amount of scrolls and with a caster level of 10 only, nothing too powerful in my opinion.
Best thing is to install the SCS component that prevents clones using quick slot items and then there's no issue, you can Vhailor's all day long without being accused of cheese.
But as we were talking of use and abuse....
I really like to abuse the abuse, to bring things to the next level, so I posted it.
And as we are here let me serve you also some tasty camambert
Who need a sorc to cast the wishes?
Here is an abusing an abuse and enjoying a collateral other one.
@Nothing_to_see_here,
According to PnP (of which I personally don't care when we are talking of CRPG) The Simulacrum is made of snow. How can the snow hit like steel? Or in other words having 2 FoA or other unique and powerful weapons in the game at the same time is itself an abuse (or can be considered so by some people), if the sim can temporarily duplicate the unique effects of FoA no reason why it can temporarily duplicate the effects of a scroll, it don't duplicate the item itself. With logic we can not go far in this kind of things, it can be used to demonstrate each thing and it's opposite. Our taste, and balance and difficulty issues matter, maybe also a little RP matter, but I am not so sure.
On the bright side, at least you would be the star of Christmas parties!
As far as I can make out, Simulacrum in BG2 is actually the 2nd edition PnP level 8 Clone spell. I don't recall that being made of snow (though significant differences e.g. Clone is a Necromancy spell rather than the opposite school of Illusion. In fact Project Image and Simulacrum are both odd as illusions, since illusions should not have true spellcasting or fighting abilities. Anyway we digress).
Having an additional character at 50% (single-class) or 60% (multi- and dual-class) of your level is just not that impactful under normal circumstances. A level 16 mage gets a level 8 mage buddy. That simulacrum is going to be pretty easy to kill and have very, very little offensive power. It amounts to a few extra low-level spells over the next few rounds. A level 17/16 fighter/mage gets a level 10/9 simulacrum. Again, very little attack power and very little spell power.
But a simulacrum can also use limited-charge items without restraint. Extra uses of Potions of Magic Shielding. The Rod of Resurrection. Scrolls of Protection from Magic.
And if you install SCS and don't allow your clones to use quick slot items, they can still use the Necklace of Missiles. They can still use HLAs. Suddenly your level 10/9 clone can cast Hardiness and Greater Whirlwind Attack. And they still have your best equipment, from the Robe to Vecna to Carsomyr.
No items forbidden? Simulacrum is extremely powerful.
SCS rules on items? Simulacrum is very powerful.
All items forbidden? Simulacrum is kind of weak for a level 8 spell or a pricy item like Vhailor's Helm.
If scrolls weren't allowed to be used in the quick slots, I think it would be just right. It's the scrolls that make the sim cheesy. I don't think unlimited use of potions on the sim is cheesy.
In this case, as I said it, you could see it like the original item lending it's power to the simulacrum, that would make normal magical items work, but one time items destroying the original and charge items lose a charge for every use.
And if it can duplicate the effect, why not duplicate it several times? Or why not have a level 2 spell that only duplicates effects?
About the snow, I will just pretend I didn't see that.
So I think that who don't use PI and Sim at all use his quasi logic, you don't use consumable scrolls use your, and I allowing everything that is implemented in the game use my. But no one of them is a real logic, in the end them are only justifications of something that don't have a inherent logic.
And for me each way is ok, as long as it keep the game challenging and funny. My quasi logic is the one that open to the largest number of possible abuses, and I try to not abuse of the freedom I give myself, actually is ages that I don't even uses the 2 legal green scrolls outside testing purpose. Even if for testing I had all the party protected with them and some more, trough PI, to protect enemy mages, preventing them from casting. Tests, and every time I reloaded and repeated with no scroll at all. But my reasons are not related to logic, are related to challenge.