Is the Dragon Disciple kit that bad?
Moonheart
Member Posts: 520
I read everywhere that the Dragon Disciple kit is bad, because in ToB, all that matters are how many spells you can cast.
Sure, with what is described as the common THAC0 among foes, the +5AC bonus doesn't matter much, but there is something else that I think interesting: the fire resistance.
Many people could say that there are lot of ways to get fire resistance from other source, so it is a moot point. But I also readed many times that resistance are cumulative in BG2, and can raise about 100%, causing the character to heal if he's hit with the relevant kind of damage.
It means to me that a Dragon Disciple can raise its fire resistance above 200% just with two buffs, and use area of effect fire spell to both damage ennemies in a large radius WHILE healing himself. Incendiary Cloud? Meteor Shower? Fireballs everywhere?
So, I try to understand, is it truly inferior to be able to cast one more time stop and why?
Sure, with what is described as the common THAC0 among foes, the +5AC bonus doesn't matter much, but there is something else that I think interesting: the fire resistance.
Many people could say that there are lot of ways to get fire resistance from other source, so it is a moot point. But I also readed many times that resistance are cumulative in BG2, and can raise about 100%, causing the character to heal if he's hit with the relevant kind of damage.
It means to me that a Dragon Disciple can raise its fire resistance above 200% just with two buffs, and use area of effect fire spell to both damage ennemies in a large radius WHILE healing himself. Incendiary Cloud? Meteor Shower? Fireballs everywhere?
So, I try to understand, is it truly inferior to be able to cast one more time stop and why?
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Edit : I remember as well that, even if it indeed heal you, your spell casting still get interrupted by the "damage", it wasn't a viable strat for a mage. You can however raise the fire resistance of a warrior above 100 and have him melee while you throw fireballs all around, helping him sustain at the same time.
All full class Arcane Casters that reach level 9 spells are extremely powerful.
The problem isn't that it's not good, it's that it's significantly worse than the sorcerer is, and the things it offers are
A: Not hard to come by with common magical items.
B: Things that the sorcerer doesn't really need or care about anyway.
Currently the advantages are:
Hit Dice: d6
1st level: +1 bonus to AC.
3rd level: May use Breath Weapon once per day: The Dragon Disciple breathes a gout of flame up to 30 ft. long, inflicting 3d8 points of fire damage on all creatures caught within the 140 degree cone. It also bypasses magic resistance.
4th level: Gains 25% innate Fire Resistance.
5th level: +1 bonus to AC and Constitution.
6th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 4d8.
8th level: Innate Fire Resistance rises to 50%.
9th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 5d8.
10th level: +1 bonus to AC.
12th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 6d8.
12th level: Innate Fire Resistance rises to 75%.
15th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 7d8.
15th level: +1 bonus to AC and Constitution.
16th level: Innate Fire Resistance rises to 100%.
18th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 8d8.
20th level: +1 bonus to AC.
I'd propose something like this to make the class more intresting,
Hit Dice: d6
1st level: +1 bonus to AC.
2:nd level: Gains immunity to fear and moral failure.
3rd level: May use Breath Weapon once per day: The Dragon Disciple breathes a gout of flame up to 30 ft. long, inflicting 3d8 points of fire damage on all creatures caught within the 140 degree cone. It also bypasses magic resistance.
4th level: Gains 25% innate Fire Resistance.
5th level: +1 bonus to AC and Constitution.
6th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 4d8.
7:th level: +1 bonus to Strenght
8th level: Innate Fire Resistance rises to 50%.
9th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 5d8.
10th level: +1 bonus to AC.
12th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 6d8.
12th level: Innate Fire Resistance rises to 75%.
13:th level: May use Cloak of Fear once per day. The Dragon Disciple creates a personal aura of fear of 1 meter radius. All other creatures must save vs. spell or be panicked for 4 rounds. Allied creatures are immune to this spell effects.
14:th level: +1 bonus to strenght
15th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 7d8.
15th level: +1 bonus to AC and Constitution.
16th level: Innate Fire Resistance rises to 100%.
17:th level: May use true sight once per day: The Dragon Disciple dispells all hostile illusions within 20 meter radius of him. Magic resistance is not defence against true sight.
18th level: Breath Weapon damage increases to 8d8.
19:th level: Gains immunity to Charm.
20th level: +1 bonus to AC.
I can't understand why people say it is worst than the original Sorcerer.
Also, True Sight is something a sorcerer can already cast 6 times per days.
I think that the way D&D5 turns the "dragon disciple" kit is more interesting: A dragon lineage sorcerer will:
- At level 6, gain an elemental affinity relative to the color of their dragon ancestor: every damage spell using this element will gain a bonus of (charisma/2)-5
- At level 14, will gain wings, making them able to ignore floor traps and entangle effects (only to display the advantages appliable to BG2)
- At level 18, can use a fear aura lasting one turn. Every creature susceptible to fear inside the aura radius must save or panic. A successful save make the creature immune to the aura for 1 turn.
It's free Regeneration. Everytime you travel you'll be full health, for example. This is a good way to free spell slots of your priest to something more interesting (like Holy Smite, Righteous Magic, Holy Power, Champion's Strength).
You can end the game with 22 CON. It's not an irrelevant thing.
(Yes, I'm talking to you mysterious person who taught me that poison can be applied as an area effect using Arrows of Detonation)
But I'm quite sure that BG2EE keeps the CON Reg.
The joke is on me, sorry.
2. yeah, absolutely
Let me see if I can break it down for you.
Dragon Disciple gains the following spells and casts them once automatically each day:
Level 1 spell: Gain +1 AC. At 3rd level you gain an innate ability to breath a 3D8 cone of fire once per day that ignores magic resistance. Gain 2 max HP and +1 max HP per level.
Level 2 spell: Gain 25% fire resistance. At 5th level, gain +1 AC and +1 Constitution.
Level 3 spell: Your innate ability to breath a cone of fire now deals +1D8 damage, but still only once per day.
Level 4 spell: Gain 25% fire resistance. At 9th level, your innate ability to breath a cone of fire now deals +1D8 damage, but still only once per day.
Level 5 spell: Gain 1 AC.
Level 6 spell: Your innate ability to breath a cone of fire now deals +1D8 damage, but still only once per day. Gain 25% fire resistance.
Level 7 spell: This spell does nothing until level 15, when your innate ability to breath a cone of fire now deals +1D8 damage, but still only once per day, and gain +1 AC and +1 Constitution.
Level 8 spell: Gain 25% fire resistance.
Level 9 spell: Your innate ability to breathe a cone of fire now deals +1D8 damage, but still only once per day. At level 20, gain +1 AC.
Serious question, would you pick any of these spells if you were playing a regular sorcerer?
How about a regular mage? Are any of them worth memorising?
The higher con can be gained by spending more time clicking a button during character creation. regen at 20 is no different in game than regen at 22. Shorty bonuses stop at 18 con, and sorcs can't be a shorty race unless you mod the game (and if you do, both could benefit from it thus its not an advantage for the dd kit).
Its not a bad kit. It's actually a really powerful kit. But it's not from the kit bonuses, it's from being a sorcerer, and other than flavour it doesn't add anything useful for a spell caster.
OK, the breath weapon's a loss, I'll grant that. Not really that great of an ability.
AC's actually quite nice, since you can hit fairly good rates with pretty low spell investments: Improved Invisibility's almost a given anyways, and Blur is always recommended for level 2 spells, so even combining with something as simple as bracers AC 6 or Shield gives effective AC of 6 - 4 (DEX) - 4(II) - 3(Blur) - 3 (DD) - 2 (Ring or cloak) = -10. A regular sorcerer has -7 here, so facing, I dunno... A Balor in the Underdark. THAC0 of 7 (or 4? Not sure if strength is counted into the modification). Assuming 7, DD's are only hit on a 17+, so 20% of the time. The sorcerer is getting hit on a 14+, so 35% of the time. Even considering MIs and Stoneskins, that's nearly DOUBLE the number of hits taken.
Assuming THAC0 of 4, the numbers become 14+ and 11+, to 35% to 50% respectively. Not as explosive as a 100% difference, but 50% increase is still noticeable. And this is without any high optimization, really: it's more in the DD's favor the lower the AC goes.
Undispellable fire resistance is kind of nice, but nothing gamebreaking. Does allow you to never have to pick up Protection from Fire, though.
So, yeah, I would consider picking these spells as a sorcerer, since it doesn't limit number of spells learned, and gives some benefits (health, AC) that are virtually impossible to get on a sorcerer outside of Tenser's Transformation. I'm not going to claim that DD's outright better than a pure sorcerer, since arcane spells > everything, generally, but the DD does have a couple unique advantages that make them worth picking.
I agree that the level 1 spell is definitely worthwhile. Not because of Power Word kill, though, definitely not. You're immune to single target spells with Improved Invisibility anyway, or Spell Immunity, or Spell Turning, or Spell Trap.
Minor trivia: Mages get ten hitdice, like thieves. A level 10's HP with 16 Con is 33-60 HP, so assuming average rolls the sorcerer is immune to PWK at level 12.
ACwise? Not sure I'm with you here, the Balor from the Underdark has a THAC0 of -2, a garden variety Balor has a THAC0 of 2... But the thing I don't understand is... why are you fighting the Balor with 25 strength in melee? How long do you think this combat's going to last? How long are you going to be in melee for?
Is it about four rounds? Protection From Magic Weapons. Level 6 spell, prevents you from taking any damage at all, 100% prevention.
Or how about Mordenkainen's Sword. Level 7 spell, and you've dealt with the problem, move out of melee and let the sword kill the fire and cold immune demon.
Generally, if something is hitting the sorcerer, it's either because something has gone wrong or because you want them to be hitting the sorcerer to kill them with Fireshield, which AC makes worse.
And if it's gone wrong, and, taking your numbers, An archer with 7 THAC0 is hitting you at 4 APR and hits you on a 17 vs a 14. The important question comes up again: How many rounds do you expect to spend getting hit? Ten rounds? The DD's extra AC means they only get hit eight times over ten rounds, while the Sorcerer gets hit 14 times.
It's easy to fall into the trap that says "Hit half as often? Worth it!", but what's the real price of ignoring six extra hits from an obnoxious archer?
Less than one level 2 spell.
As for the "less spell cast than a vanilla sorcerer", it is true but you should still have enough for early fights and it gets irrelevant once you have level 9 spells (and thus, wish)
There is no fight in which one spell of each level can make a difference if you carefully manage your spells. Long fights (Amelyssan mostly) will require a wish: rest anyway, and for short ones you still have enough spells. Besides, the buffs might look small but they really aren't. Getting more HP (and you do get quite a lot more) is often the difference between "that power word is gonna hit" and "that power word is gonna fail". It's true for PW: Kill, indeed, but also for PW: Stun. A max-level,16con Mage will have, with no buffs, 81HP, if I am not mistaken. Hence he is vulnerable to PW: stun even without taking any damage.
The AC is not that relevant indeed since you do not rely on it to defend yourself.
Fire resistance is good if you are not using the Cloak of Mirroring (which I rarely use because it kinda removes the challenge), you can blast fireballs etc... at melee range without drawbacks.
Overall, since we have Wish: Rest to compensate for the lack of spellcasts, I'd even consider Dragon Disciple to be a better sorcerer than the vanilla one.
And even without, mages already manage to win every fight with less spellcasts than the Dragon Disciple has.
Undispellable fire resistance doesn't only make you immune to some cast of ennemies, but also allows you to use AoE fire attack spells like no-brainers. You're not going to feel the fire at all, so why you should wonder if that fireball is cast farther enough from you?
The interruption factor will only happen if you use the Incendiary Cloud/Meteor Shower, and yet, I still wonder if the fire dot is really going to interrupt a cast speeded up with the Amulet of Power and the Robe of Vecna (anyone has an input on this?)
All in one, I feel that the Dragon Disciple is a stronger -solo- option than the regular Sorcerer. You can even heal yourself out of combat by blasting your own face with fireballs... yup, you're like Natsu in Fairy Tail. You litteraly feed on fire.
In party, I won't matter about AC at all, and will avoid to scorch the battlefield brainlessly... so I'll stick by the regular Sorcerer option.
Whether you want to use it or not is up to you, as always with what we call "cheese".
If you are ok with using Wish:rest (which the OP is apparently not against), then it is an argument.
If the question were "I don't want to use Wish:Rest, does that make Dragon disciple inferior to vanilla sorcerer?" then indeed it would not be an argument.