@Pantalion Hm, my stats for the Balor may be incorrect: I was using shoecream's SoA Monster Encyclopedia... And now that I recheck, the one that's probably right is the UDBALOR with THAC0 5 and STR 25. My bad. Also, I forgot that thieves and mages get 10HD, so thanks for that catch as well.
I also only used the Balor as the example for the whole big bad brute idea. There's almost no reason to be in melee with him... But doesn't quite negate the AC bonus, as there're stuff like the Kuo Toa's paralyzing bolts, or drow bolts, or mages with MMM, or things that just refuse to switch targets from the sorcerer. It's somewhat worsened by having SCS installed, as then most enemies start trying to target the sorcerer: it's just a good quality of life buff that helps you survive/not waste aura on.
Overall, since we have Wish: Rest to compensate for the lack of spellcasts, I'd even consider Dragon Disciple to be a better sorcerer than the vanilla one.
An interesting perspective. "Who cares that you've given up a Dragon's Breath and/or Time Stop every fight, because your spells per day are effectively infinite via spell loops"?
From that perspective, why play a sorcerer at all? Mages can use Spell Trap/Project Image loops to change their entire spell list on the fly and have infinite spells per day just as easily, while also being significantly more durable, and a specialist mage gets more casts per day than the Dragon Disciple with a significantly larger list to customise from. You can even be a gnome!
And seriously, we're still talking Power Words? For a sorcerer? You are all picking Spell Immunity, right? Or Contingency? I'm sorry, but I simply can't understand how these are problems that need one spell per day of every spell level to overcome.
So we have the essence of optimisation: What can you get, how often is that important, what do you lose?
How often do you face enemies that produce fire effects that actually matter, even in solo play?
How much does a potion of fire resistance cost? How much does it cost to keep the ring of fire resistance and fire control rather than selling them? How much does a potion of healing cost? How much does a potion of defence cost?
How much does a scroll of project image cost? How much does a scroll of stoneskins cost? How much is a scroll of shapechange?
If BG2 took place on the elemental plane of fire, then Dragon Disciple's opportunity cost of a few spells per day would be amazing for permanent fire resistance.
If fire resistance and healing were hard to find in general, being able to self-heal with fireballs would fantastic.
As it is, the price far outweighs the advantages.
For example, here's the "Dragon Slayer" fighter kit:
Advantages: Gains 5% fire resistance, +1 to AC, and +1 to hit against dragons per level, and rolls D12s for hit points. Disadvantages: Can only gain **** in weapons.
Is that a worthwhile kit? You're only giving up 1/2 APR and 1 damage to get fire immunity by level 20, 10 more average HP, and you're pretty great at fighting dragons.
But... how many dragons are there? Assume it includes every single reptile in the game, is it worth the tradeoff?
@Moonheart: Let's say that optimised mages generally win combats for their party by expending one or two high level spells. Generally this is true for most combats. A Chaos'd group of enemies is basically fodder for your lowly peons to mop up, and once they get Project Image, a mage can nova their entire selection of spells in every combat at the cost of one level 7 spell. Fighting solo, a mage may need to use three or four high level spells to win, or a few extra spells for buffs.
So yes, in one way it's tricky to compare since they can obviously both do the same thing, in the same way that two men can bench press the same maximum weight, while one can do it longer.
First thing, then, is staying power. A Sorcerer can handle an extra fight per rest, can handle the unexpected dispel one time more often, can breach one more obnoxious mage. If power is measured by "how many fights can you win single-handedly before you start to suck", which for the sorcerer is arguably the case, then the Sorcerer is outright superior. When a level 11 sorcerer decides to put up Fire Shield + Stoneskins, they're using half their resources and can do it twice per day, when a level 11 dragon disciple puts up fire shield and stoneskins, they hope their stoneskins doesn't run out.
When a sorcerer puts up Spell Immunity, they have five more slots they can use to cast Breach or LR, cast another SI, or call up a skeleton warrior, or all four and then dropping a group of summons with Chaos. A sorcerer spellslot is one of the most valuable things imaginable, because it's literally freedom, and that freedom is the power to handle whatever arises.
@Neverused - Since I'm not sure we're actually in disagreement, I'll summarise my position.
1: There are times when the Fire Resistance, AC and HP (not the fire breath, ugh) can be useful for the Dragon Disciple.
2: There are more times when an additional Arcane Spell of each level could have been useful, particularly because for a sorcerer this would have been the best possible spell for the situation.
3: The majority of the Dragon Disciple's advantages can be replicated with cheap, commonly found, items in the situations where they provide a significant advantage (e.g: potions of fire resistance when fighting Firkraag), or simply replaced by the additional Arcane Spells per day (while they don't provide AC, I'm sure we can both agree that Mirror Images and Stoneskins do make the vast majority of "being attacked by lowly peons" situations largely irrelevant).
4: Therefore the Sorcerer is mechanically "stronger" than the Dragon Disciple. - This is what I started trying to explain for Raduziel, who did not understand how people say the DD is "worse".
@Pantalion I also believe most of us use SCS and that requires quite some management to stay protected from EVERYTHING with smart mages against you. If you can have one less thing to care, I'd call it worth it. And if you spam spell immunities, well, play as you will, but that does not sound any less cheesy than using Wish: Rest to get unlimited spells
By the way, permanent fire resistance is not just useful for a couple of fights. You can blast delayed fireballs, stay in the middle of an incendiary cloud/meteor swarm and remain undamaged, and these all are the best damaging spells (if you stay long enough in their AoE for Incendiary cloud and Meteor Swarm) of their levels. You can do that everyfight, it is undispellable. Once again it does not matter if you use cloak of mirroring.
Lastly, using a project image is not necessarily quite as practical as using your own body. Yes, grabbing a couple of Project Image can compensate for any lack of spellcasts. But when you are using project image your main body is unable to move, and to buff. It's not quite like moving around with boots of speed and haste and casting instant wishes till you get the rest option or casting spells while running.
I would humbly note that if you play BG2EE after BGEE, it means quite a huge amount of time is spent in BG1, where Dragon Disciple's bonuses can be life-saving: AC, HPs, and where even the breath attack can be quite effective. If you are one of those players who can only play BG2 with characters that went through BG1, you actually can see a lot more positive about a Dragon Disciple. If the DD's bonuses helped you during days of playing through BG1, you can live with some downsides when you reach SoA.
1: There are times when the Fire Resistance, AC and HP (not the fire breath, ugh) can be useful for the Dragon Disciple.
Well, this is where I started to contest the logic when I openened this whole thread: The Fire Resistance is not "sometimes" useful, it's "always" useful, if you exploit its opportunity.
Assuming you play your sorcerer solo, the Dragon Disciple kit is the difference between being able to spam explosive-type spells (i.e. both fire and area damage) or not. If you don't have a total fire resistance, most of the time, you will not be able to use your explosions because you'll friendly-fire yourself with them....
A Dragon Disciple can lay a few delayed fireballs on the ground before the ennemy, then cast fireball at them to draw their attention, then cast incendiary cloud/meteor swarm, then spell contingency for 3xfireballs and have other contingencies triggering when he's hit, throwing even more explosions around him.. A sorcerer trying the same will, if the place is too narrow, just kill himself with his own spells.
Such strategy has a lot of benefits: - You interrupt EVERY spellcaster in the pack at once - You damage EVERY enemy at once - You heal yourself in the process
2: There are more times when an additional Arcane Spell of each level could have been useful, particularly because for a sorcerer this would have been the best possible spell for the situation.
... and there come the other advantages of this strategy: you are going to economize a lot of spells.
Area of effects spells ignore almost every common anti-magic defense the vanilla game uses: Spell turning, invisibility, shadow door, mislead, spell deflection, sanctuary. => as much spell you won't need to use to remove those protections... who need to cast true sight when you don't need to see your ennemy?
Area of effects spells damage all ennemy spellcasters at once, meaning that it is unlikely you get a single cast in your face => as much magical protections you won't need to cast on yourself
And you're self healing so... you can even tune down the amount physical protections, which is emphased by the fact you also have +5AC compared to any other mage and that you can just... well throw another layer of fire havoc and run in circle with boots of speed if you need to recover some
In fact, explosive spells is all you will need in 90% of the cases. And even a dragon disciple can cast a LOT of explosive spells before needing a rest.
3: The majority of the Dragon Disciple's advantages can be replicated with cheap, commonly found, items in the situations where they provide a significant advantage (e.g: potions of fire resistance when fighting Firkraag), or simply replaced by the additional Arcane Spells per day (while they don't provide AC, I'm sure we can both agree that Mirror Images and Stoneskins do make the vast majority of "being attacked by lowly peons" situations largely irrelevant).
Yes, this is the most important point: why don't just cast fire shield and resist to fire with a sorcerer and do the same?
Well, you can. In fact, I'm almost suprised that no ones do. At mid levels, it's probably the most powerful solo strategy a sorcerer can pull out.
But if you're not a Dragon Disciple, you will basicaly spend a lot of money during all the game or sacrifice the precious spells per day casting anti-fire buffs just to do what the Dragon Disciple will do better than you, because: - He needs no preparation - He cannot be dispelled - He stack to 127% with a single ring - He gains 5AC, a dragon breath, and more hp as a bonus
A Dragon Disciple can lay a few delayed fireballs on the ground before the ennemy, then cast fireball at them to draw their attention, then cast incendiary cloud/meteor swarm, then spell contingency for 3xfireballs and have other contingencies triggering when he's hit, throwing even more explosions around him.. A sorcerer trying the same will, if the place is too narrow, just kill himself with his own spells.
Such strategy has a lot of benefits: - You interrupt EVERY spellcaster in the pack at once - You damage EVERY enemy at once - You heal yourself in the process
While that sounds very cool (if what you're fighting isn't fire resistant/immune) and fits the roleplay theme of the kit perfectly, it's more efficient to use Cloak of Mirroring and Skull Trap. It does pretty much all of that except: - heal yourself - cost 1 level 3 spell choice vs 1 level 3, 1 level 8 and 1 level 9/hla
Both can use this method, one can use it once more per rest/wish while the other can follow it up with a dragon breath that bypasses magic resistance but not fire resistance/immunity.
While that sounds very cool (if what you're fighting isn't fire resistant/immune) and fits the roleplay theme of the kit perfectly, it's more efficient to use Cloak of Mirroring and Skull Trap. It does pretty much all of that except: - heal yourself - cost 1 level 3 spell choice vs 1 level 3, 1 level 8 and 1 level 9/hla
Both can use this method, one can use it once more per rest/wish while the other can follow it up with a dragon breath that bypasses magic resistance but not fire resistance/immunity.
Does it work? Last time I checked, the cloak of mirroring wasn't protecting you at all against aoe damage.
However, even if it works, 6 skull trap per rest doesn't make "more per rest" (or wish, or clone) than 5 fireball + 5 sunfire + 5 delayed fireball+ 5 meteor swarm (total: 25)
Not accounting that: - You can't use your version before chapter 4, I can use mine at the very first encounter of the game - There is only one Cloak of Mirroring, so you will never be able to have a compagnon with you using this strategy. While the DD will probably be able to equip probably 2 fellows with enough fire protection by the end of the game - The DD can also summon Fire Elementals or Pit Fiends to make things worst for his enemies, since those summons are also immune to fire
With SCS installed, practically every enemy Mage and creature with innate spellcasting (Demons/Devils/Dragons) will actively attempt to Dispel/Breach any buffs you have...repeatedly. So the undispellable 100% Fire Resist that DDs get, is actually useful there, especially with how many offensive spells are Fire based.
To my opinion, the most dangerous foes when using this strategy will be monsters that have innate spellcasting abilities.
Creatures without innate spellcasting will be interrupted at each round, even if they are immune to fire, and its actually quite hard to attack physicaly a mage with a +5 stackable bonus to AC, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, and Contingency, so they will be mostly powerless. Only innate spellcasting, which cannot be interrupted, can provide a threat against this strategy.
At least, that is on the theorical field.
I've started a run with a DD protagonist to check all this...
And if you spam spell immunities, well, play as you will, but that does not sound any less cheesy than using Wish: Rest to get unlimited spells
... Casting spells to gain their listed benefits is cheesy?
Okay, sure. If you consider casting useful spells to be inappropriate, then Dragon Disciple is better, because that level 9 spell was probably going to be wasted casting meteor swarm anyway.
Regardless, there seems to be some confusion as to what constitutes "optimal play", since I see people have mentioned using Meteor Swarm and Delayed Blast Fireballs in a non-ironic context.
1: Aim your damn spells.
Nine times out of ten, you can safely hit a group of people actively meleeing someone just by aiming your spell right. Skull Traps have a tighter AOE, so you can easily thread it in even tight quarters without toasting yourself. If you're bad at aiming spells, you know what? You want Protection from Magic Energy cast on yourself anyway, because Horrid Wiltings hurt, and you have Mirror Images, which stops AOE damage same as it stops everything else.
2: Use your damn spells.
Damage spells, even solo, are not the be all and end all of a Sorcerer. Using nothing but level 5 and below spells that don't deal damage.
Polymorph Self + Haste = Win all combats forever. Polymorph Self lasts for minutes at a time, ignores 99% of spells, ignores a surprisingly large number of hard hitting melee foes (such as trolls, pit fiends, and even things like lich's ghoul touch), has huge resistances to archers, can use wands (so fireball yourself if you really want to waste charges not using the ol' Scorcher), and if they somehow successfully Dispel you, the only thing that will happen is that you'll get your weapon back.
Greater Malaison + Web + Spider Swarm - Save vs. Spell at -2 with a GM gives a level 20 fighter a greater than 50% base chance of being held each round, and you can cast multiple webs at the same spot. There really aren't many "multiple spellcasters" combats in the game, but many of them will also find a 50% base chance of being held and poisoned to death by spiders is not enjoyable.
A level 20 fighter that has been held has an AC of over 9000, and most importantly deals 0 damage to you. Golden Rule: Damage prevention is always better action economy than healing. Spiders are immune to webs, attack many times per round, and shred your enemies while you sip margaritas and contemplate that other people might have to kill their own enemies sometimes, all while safely out of line of sight.
Invisibility - Seriously. Level 2 spell, fantastically useful if you're above cheesing Staff of the Magi. Enemy mages buffed to high heaven? Invisibility, then walk away while they're busy casting "Omega Kill Cluster" and take a quick breather, you can easily wait out their buffs (Warning: Your paladin with 8 Intelligence may consider "taking advantage of a mage's short term buff durations" to be unsporting and insist upon attacking your enemy at their absolute strongest). Surrounded by enemies? Cast it and let them go wallop your summons while you wander off. Archers giving you grief? Power Word: Retarget AI.
Positioning is a useful and powerful tool, and you can easily gather a group, move away and get two or three AOEs of them all clustered together while they pursue you to your new location, potentially taking the opportunity to scout out more enemies and lead them back to the first group for maximum efficiency murder, or lure enemies which can detect invisibility nice and far away from the enemies that can't detect invisibility and kill them in safety.
Chaos - Even on its own, this is one of the best spells to introduce yourself to a group. Any damage an enemy does to their own side is damage that would have hit you, giving it double mileage. -8 save vs. spell with a Malaison gives even epic level mages a >50% chance of fluffing their save, and your average level 12 warrior is going to fail the save even without GM far more often than not.
Animate Dead - Immune to enemy crowd control, poison, level drain, and can be summoned, hasted, and sent to their deaths while you never even enter visual range of the enemy. Sexy. Plus you can totally bust out Skull Traps to explode against them at the edge of LoS to toast anyone meleeing them.
Not taking damage is always, always better than healing yourself from fireballs, particularly on Insane. Even solely, you rarely need to be standing in melee, taking damage or even participating in the lowly peon sandpit where things like AC and HP matter.
3: Don't get damn Meteor Swarm.
Why am I even having to explain this?
Dragon's Breath: Level 9 spell. 20D6 fire that ignores MR. Party Friendly. Knockdown. Doesn't cost a level 9 spell pick.
Meteor Swarm: Trash spell that deals 4D10 damage.
Delayed Blast Fireball is pretty trashy as well, since you're spending a level 7 spell slot to do what you can do with a level 3 spell slot, but at least it's not Meteor Swarm.
tl;dr: Having one strategy oriented around dealing the most frequently resisted type of damage which the Dragon Disciple does "better" than the Sorcerer does not make the Dragon Disciple stronger than the sorcerer.
I haven't actually tried it or made any calculations, but shouldn't Tenser's Transformation be a lot more useful to the Dragon Disciple than the Sorcerer? (Hit points double and AC is reduced by a static number, so the bonuses should stack?) I realize this becomes irrelevant at high levels, but mid-game, it might be an advantage if you are making a tank-ish Dragon Disciple?
I don't see your point at all, here. Every strategy, every spell you talked about, the Dragon Disciple can use them too, so they are not an argument to compare the standard Sorcerer and its only class kit.
Also, "the most frequently resisted type" is probably not resisted more than 10% in the game. Seriously, there is indeed more fire immute critters than lighning immute critters in that game... but you don't find a fire immute critters at every doorstep neverless.
It means that on less than on 10% of the encounters, the Dragon Disciple will but "just" as efficient as a regular Sorcerer, and in all the remaining encounters, he will be able to crush his opponents the plain, old-fashioned way: Superior Firepower.
I haven't actually tried it or made any calculations, but shouldn't Tenser's Transformation be a lot more useful to the Dragon Disciple than the Sorcerer? (Hit points double and AC is reduced by a static number, so the bonuses should stack?) I realize this becomes irrelevant at high levels, but mid-game, it might be an advantage if you are making a tank-ish Dragon Disciple?
A lot more useful... probably not. But that's surely among the fun things I wish to try with the Dragon Disciple.
Simulacrum => Tenser => Send him tank => Make the fire rain and heal him while searing every ennemy around. If I had a level 9 spell to spar, I'll make the Simulacrum cast Black Blade of disaster before Tenser, but that's probably not worth dropping another level 9 spell for that.
I haven't actually tried it or made any calculations, but shouldn't Tenser's Transformation be a lot more useful to the Dragon Disciple than the Sorcerer? (Hit points double and AC is reduced by a static number, so the bonuses should stack?) I realize this becomes irrelevant at high levels, but mid-game, it might be an advantage if you are making a tank-ish Dragon Disciple?
Strictly speaking, yes, but the usual problem applies: You are making your sorcerer better at doing things they, and Dragon Disciples, should not really be doing, while taking away things that they should be doing, namely casting spells.
You do not want to give your sorcerer a level 6 spell pick dedicated to stopping them from casting spells so they can pretend to be a fighter. Fighters suck at the best of times, and if the Sorcerer can cast spells then their HP is irrelevant, they can get more than double their HP by simply using PfMW once.
I don't see your point at all, here. Every strategy, every spell you talked about, the Dragon Disciple can use them too, so they are not an argument to compare the standard Sorcerer and its only class kit.
Wrong. Every strategy combination I talked about, the Sorcerer can do better, because they have more spells. We established this already.
Secondly, every single strategy of those involves less risk for the sorcerer than trying to brute force your way through enemies.
Also, "the most frequently resisted type" is probably not resisted more than 10% in the game. Seriously, there is indeed more fire immute critters than lighning immute critters in that game... but you don't find a fire immute critters at every doorstep neverless.
No fear, I'd tell you to avoid getting every lightning and cold spells as well. That said, what % of the game's enemies would actually qualify as "Fights that actually matter"? Do any fall in the list of enemies with fire resistance?
Adamantite Golem Ankhegs - 50% Every Balor Bone Golem Brain Golem Clay Golem - 50% Demon Knights Devil Shades Dust Mephits Every Efreet Elemental Lich Every Fire Elemental Fire Giants - 50% Fire Mephits Fire Salamander - 50% Red Dragons Certain Fledgeling Vampires - 50% Every Glabrezu Gray Ooze Greater Werewolf - 50% Greater Wolfwere - 50% Greater Yuan-Ti - 30% Invisible Stalkers - 30% Iron Golems Lightning Mephit Magical Swords Magma Mephits Mariliths - 50% Some Nabassu Nizidramanii'yt (That's black dragon to you) - 20% Ooze Mephits Pit Fiends Salamanders Salt Mephits Sand Golems - 50% Sea Zombies - 50% Shadows Shadow Fiends Steam Mephit Every Tanar'ri Certain Vampires - 50% Vampiric Mists Yuan-Ti - 30%
So every demon fight, a bunch of elemental fights, every time a mage gates in a demon, every time you see fire themed dungeons, werewolves, swarms of mephits, common undead enemies with multiple dungeons centred around them, and against many popular mage summons. Do you want to list up enemies immune to magic damage or where it's better to use fire damage?
It means that on less than on 10% of the encounters, the Dragon Disciple will but "just" as efficient as a regular Sorcerer, and in all the remaining encounters, he will be able to crush his opponents the plain, old-fashioned way: Superior Firepower.
Ahhh, and this is why you're missing my point. You're assuming that the strategy you favour is superior to the above mentioned strategies, and that therefore the fact that the Dragon Disciple can better use this strategy makes them superior.
Well, alright, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so go ahead and make your case. The optimal sorcerer and the optimal dragon disciple both share the same optimal strategy:
"Succeed in the most tasks with the lowest risk and lowest percentage of available resources expended."
In which cases is "standing still and absorbing your own AOEs while taking Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Sunfire and Meteor Swarm as known spells" the optimal strategy for:
Solo play: Limited Party play: Full Party play:
And let's be clear here - not "viable", but "optimal", the absolute best thing that the Dragon Disciple can do in "Situation X" is significantly better than the best thing that can be accomplished by the Sorcerer and their additional spells per day. If you can demonstrate that tactics available to the Disciple are optimal for the majority of situations you may encounter in BG, I shall happily cede the point.
Your "optimal" talk doesn't make sense at all here, Pantalion. You don't need to be "optimal" to be "good", or even "very good", and my question has never been "is the DD more optimal than a sorcerer?" but "is the DD kit that bad?"
Simply put: Most of people speak of the Dragon Disciple like a kit that will make the player feels like "oh damn, why did I pick this kit? It has absolutly nothing worth compared to the base class"... I do feel they are wrong.
The Dragon Disciple, due to its permanent and undispellable immunity to fire, -has- something worth playing it, and this is the access to a very simple and straight-forward strategy that is powerful enough to crush a good chunk of the encounters of this game without any preparation needed nor any kind of micro-management.
This is not 90% of the encounters of the game, you argue.
Perhaps not, but even, it's a very noticeable % of the encounters... Not half of them include a fire-immune foe, and there are ways to deal with them while abusing your own fire immunity during the same fight anyway.
TL;DR: "Fun while efficient enough" is often much better the "optimal". A DD can kill the hardest encounters almost as easily than a Sorcerer due to having the same tools.... but it also have the option to sometimes dispatch a pack of ennemies just by blasting them like a madman, which is brings a bit of fun that the Sorcerer doesn't have.
Dragon's Breath: Level 9 spell. 20D6 fire that ignores MR. Party Friendly. Knockdown. Doesn't cost a level 9 spell pick.
Meteor Swarm: Trash spell that deals 4D10 damage.
While I must agree that overall you're better off with Dragon's Breath than Meteor Swarm, I would like to mention that Meteor Swarm does 4D10 damage each round, so if you get the enemy to stay in the area of effect for the whole duration, they'll take 16d10 damage. With Dragon's Breath, on the other hand, if they make the save they only take 10d10 damage.
Personally I wish that dragon disciples were more different from regular sorcerers. Pretty much anything a dragon disciple can do, a regular sorcerer can do, and pretty much anything a regular sorcerer can do, a dragon disciple can do. I did have some fun playing Icewind Dale with a team of six dragon disciples, though. I liked to line my team up and have them all release their fiery breath on the undead horde at the same time.
Personally I wish that dragon disciples were more different from regular sorcerers. Pretty much anything a dragon disciple can do, a regular sorcerer can do, and pretty much anything a regular sorcerer can do, a dragon disciple can do.
Well, isn't it something that can be told about almost every base class and every kit?
Personally I wish that dragon disciples were more different from regular sorcerers. Pretty much anything a dragon disciple can do, a regular sorcerer can do, and pretty much anything a regular sorcerer can do, a dragon disciple can do.
Well, isn't it something that can be told about almost every base class and every kit?
I don't believe so. I think that Kensai, Archers, Stalkers, Beastmasters, Assassins, Swashbucklers, Bounty Hunters, Jesters, Blades and Shapeshifters all play very differently from their respective base classes. A high-level kensai, for example, can wreak carnage of a magnitude that no regular fighter can match, yet if that kensai had to get across a river while there was there was a bunch of archers on the other side, he/she would quickly get shot down, whereas the regular fighter's armor and shield would block all the arrows.
A dragon disciple CAN play differently from the normal sorcerer, but only if your normal sorcerer has no way of becoming immune to fire each battle.
I don't think so. I'm having a lot of fun with my DD that I didn't had with my sorcerer. Many many fights are so much simplier when firebal-like spells becomes "party-friendly"
So... I lost a pretty lengthy post saying this better, and I'm feeling too lazy to repeat it, but yeah, to summarise:
1: You cannot determine if something is "that bad" or not without having a scale of Good and Bad. For actual mechanical comparison, optimal play must be considered because otherwise you cannot compare two classes together to see if they're good or bad without saying if they are better or worse. 1b: If you gauge good and bad by "fun" or "easy" rather than whether the class is actually mechanically superior or inferior, then nobody can really tell you what you find enjoyable or difficult, so this thread need not exist.
2: If you think that the Dragon Disciple is stronger than the Sorcerer I disagree, because the Optimal Sorcerer and the Optimal Dragon Disciple does the same exact things as the Optimal Sorcerer because Arcane Spells make everything else pointless. If you agree, from an optimisation, and therefore an overall power, perspective, Dragon Disciples are weaker than Sorcerers, then we do not disagree, as I am not discussing other factors such as enjoyment, nor am I suggesting they are bad - see my first post.
Example:
Elf Mage/Thief vs Gnome Illusionist/Thief. + They are better at casting Necromancy spells like Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death. - Additional spells per day and save penalties to Illusion Spells are more useful in more situations than being able to cast Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death. + Elven Mage/Thieves get +1 to hit with Longswords, are immune to sleep and charm, and have a higher max Dexterity. - Gnome I/T's +2-+7 to saving throws and +1 Intelligence are more useful in more situations.
Therefore: Elven Mage/Thief is "Very Good", but "Worse" than an Illusionist/Thief.
That elves are more enjoyable to look at than gnomes, offer alternative strategies via party friendly horrid wiltings, and so forth, does not change the fact that an Illusionist/Thief is a better character from an optimisation perspective.
Personally I'm rather pro-Gnome in general. Baldur's Gate, however, is simply not kind to Halflings or Gnomes in general, making them look more like portly midgets with bad facial hair, curly shoes and/or hairy feet.
Personally I'm rather pro-Gnome in general. Baldur's Gate, however, is simply not kind to Halflings or Gnomes in general, making them look more like portly midgets with bad facial hair, curly shoes and/or hairy feet.
Well, being kind and being honest are more often than not mutually exclusive. BG has chosen the honest path, and that is depicting Gnomes as the ugly wart-ridden and big-nosed faces they are. Jan Jansen surely is a handsome specimen by his races' standards.
1: You cannot determine if something is "that bad" or not without having a scale of Good and Bad. For actual mechanical comparison, optimal play must be considered because otherwise you cannot compare two classes together to see if they're good or bad without saying if they are better or worse
I disagree.
There is only one "optimal" option in a given set of possibilies, but it doesn't mean than there is no option beside this one which could be considered as "good". So, once you have decided what's "optimal", you just made the proof than ONE of the option is good, the one you decided as being "optimal", but you didn't made any point about the other options being good or bad at all.
The same way, would you proove that the Sorcerer is the "optimal" way, you would have made no point about the Dragon Disciple being "bad", and have bring no answer to the topic of this thread.
2: If you think that the Dragon Disciple is stronger than the Sorcerer (...) If you agree, from an optimisation, and therefore an overall power, perspective, Dragon Disciples are weaker than Sorcerers (...)
I do not have yet an opinion on this. I have to play with my DD more to forge one.
What I know for sure right now, is that there are fights where the DD is much more powerful than the Sorcerer: Some fights that requiered me to reload 1-2 times on max difficulty with my sorcerer have turned into my current playthrough into huge jokes, like "fireball, fireball, fireball, oh... everyone's dead already?"
But on an "overall power perspective", I do not know yet.
There is only one "optimal" option in a given set of possibilies, but it doesn't mean than there is no option beside this one which could be considered as "good".
If we know what is "optimal" then we have determined what is "best", because that is what optimal means.
If we know what is best, then everything else that is not "best" is "worse". The only way anything can be "good" or "bad" is relative to something else.
And honestly if you're having less trouble with fights because you're now spamming 10D6 capped damage spells that you don't have to aim as carefully, I'm not sure how you were playing a sorcerer to begin with.
1: You cannot determine if something is "that bad" or not without having a scale of Good and Bad. For actual mechanical comparison, optimal play must be considered because otherwise you cannot compare two classes together to see if they're good or bad without saying if they are better or worse
I disagree.
There is only one "optimal" option in a given set of possibilies, but it doesn't mean than there is no option beside this one which could be considered as "good". So, once you have decided what's "optimal", you just made the proof than ONE of the option is good, the one you decided as being "optimal", but you didn't made any point about the other options being good or bad at all.
The same way, would you proove that the Sorcerer is the "optimal" way, you would have made no point about the Dragon Disciple being "bad", and have bring no answer to the topic of this thread.
2: If you think that the Dragon Disciple is stronger than the Sorcerer (...) If you agree, from an optimisation, and therefore an overall power, perspective, Dragon Disciples are weaker than Sorcerers (...)
I do not have yet an opinion on this. I have to play with my DD more to forge one.
What I know for sure right now, is that there are fights where the DD is much more powerful than the Sorcerer: Some fights that requiered me to reload 1-2 times on max difficulty with my sorcerer have turned into my current playthrough into huge jokes, like "fireball, fireball, fireball, oh... everyone's dead already?"
But on an "overall power perspective", I do not know yet.
"The Sorcerer is BETTER than the DD" doesn't mean that the DD is BAD. It has been said one thousand times already, I don't understand how can you still possibly misunderstand/deny this simple concept.
And I'm sorry, but if you just rely on "Mwuahahahah fireball! Fireball!! FIREBALL!!!!", you'll soon find out that:
1) it's not always possible to use a fireball without damaging targets you don't want to hurt.
2) later on it will become useless due to enemies with high saving-throws, magic resistance, spell immunity, fire resistance.
3) a Sorcerer can simply use Protection from Energy + Fireshield to reach 125 fire AND magic fire resistance and do the same thing but better, since it has one more slot for your precious Fireball spell. (Side note: the AC bonus not only becomes quickly useless, but it's even bad to have if you want your fireshields to trigger while you're protected by stoneskins, mirror image, PfMW, etc.)
Comments
I also only used the Balor as the example for the whole big bad brute idea. There's almost no reason to be in melee with him... But doesn't quite negate the AC bonus, as there're stuff like the Kuo Toa's paralyzing bolts, or drow bolts, or mages with MMM, or things that just refuse to switch targets from the sorcerer. It's somewhat worsened by having SCS installed, as then most enemies start trying to target the sorcerer: it's just a good quality of life buff that helps you survive/not waste aura on.
From that perspective, why play a sorcerer at all? Mages can use Spell Trap/Project Image loops to change their entire spell list on the fly and have infinite spells per day just as easily, while also being significantly more durable, and a specialist mage gets more casts per day than the Dragon Disciple with a significantly larger list to customise from. You can even be a gnome!
And seriously, we're still talking Power Words? For a sorcerer? You are all picking Spell Immunity, right? Or Contingency? I'm sorry, but I simply can't understand how these are problems that need one spell per day of every spell level to overcome.
So we have the essence of optimisation: What can you get, how often is that important, what do you lose?
How often do you face enemies that produce fire effects that actually matter, even in solo play?
How much does a potion of fire resistance cost?
How much does it cost to keep the ring of fire resistance and fire control rather than selling them?
How much does a potion of healing cost?
How much does a potion of defence cost?
How much does a scroll of project image cost?
How much does a scroll of stoneskins cost?
How much is a scroll of shapechange?
If BG2 took place on the elemental plane of fire, then Dragon Disciple's opportunity cost of a few spells per day would be amazing for permanent fire resistance.
If fire resistance and healing were hard to find in general, being able to self-heal with fireballs would fantastic.
As it is, the price far outweighs the advantages.
For example, here's the "Dragon Slayer" fighter kit:
Advantages: Gains 5% fire resistance, +1 to AC, and +1 to hit against dragons per level, and rolls D12s for hit points.
Disadvantages: Can only gain **** in weapons.
Is that a worthwhile kit? You're only giving up 1/2 APR and 1 damage to get fire immunity by level 20, 10 more average HP, and you're pretty great at fighting dragons.
But... how many dragons are there? Assume it includes every single reptile in the game, is it worth the tradeoff?
@Moonheart: Let's say that optimised mages generally win combats for their party by expending one or two high level spells. Generally this is true for most combats. A Chaos'd group of enemies is basically fodder for your lowly peons to mop up, and once they get Project Image, a mage can nova their entire selection of spells in every combat at the cost of one level 7 spell. Fighting solo, a mage may need to use three or four high level spells to win, or a few extra spells for buffs.
So yes, in one way it's tricky to compare since they can obviously both do the same thing, in the same way that two men can bench press the same maximum weight, while one can do it longer.
First thing, then, is staying power. A Sorcerer can handle an extra fight per rest, can handle the unexpected dispel one time more often, can breach one more obnoxious mage. If power is measured by "how many fights can you win single-handedly before you start to suck", which for the sorcerer is arguably the case, then the Sorcerer is outright superior. When a level 11 sorcerer decides to put up Fire Shield + Stoneskins, they're using half their resources and can do it twice per day, when a level 11 dragon disciple puts up fire shield and stoneskins, they hope their stoneskins doesn't run out.
When a sorcerer puts up Spell Immunity, they have five more slots they can use to cast Breach or LR, cast another SI, or call up a skeleton warrior, or all four and then dropping a group of summons with Chaos. A sorcerer spellslot is one of the most valuable things imaginable, because it's literally freedom, and that freedom is the power to handle whatever arises.
@Neverused - Since I'm not sure we're actually in disagreement, I'll summarise my position.
1: There are times when the Fire Resistance, AC and HP (not the fire breath, ugh) can be useful for the Dragon Disciple.
2: There are more times when an additional Arcane Spell of each level could have been useful, particularly because for a sorcerer this would have been the best possible spell for the situation.
3: The majority of the Dragon Disciple's advantages can be replicated with cheap, commonly found, items in the situations where they provide a significant advantage (e.g: potions of fire resistance when fighting Firkraag), or simply replaced by the additional Arcane Spells per day (while they don't provide AC, I'm sure we can both agree that Mirror Images and Stoneskins do make the vast majority of "being attacked by lowly peons" situations largely irrelevant).
4: Therefore the Sorcerer is mechanically "stronger" than the Dragon Disciple. - This is what I started trying to explain for Raduziel, who did not understand how people say the DD is "worse".
By the way, permanent fire resistance is not just useful for a couple of fights. You can blast delayed fireballs, stay in the middle of an incendiary cloud/meteor swarm and remain undamaged, and these all are the best damaging spells (if you stay long enough in their AoE for Incendiary cloud and Meteor Swarm) of their levels. You can do that everyfight, it is undispellable. Once again it does not matter if you use cloak of mirroring.
Lastly, using a project image is not necessarily quite as practical as using your own body. Yes, grabbing a couple of Project Image can compensate for any lack of spellcasts. But when you are using project image your main body is unable to move, and to buff. It's not quite like moving around with boots of speed and haste and casting instant wishes till you get the rest option or casting spells while running.
Assuming you play your sorcerer solo, the Dragon Disciple kit is the difference between being able to spam explosive-type spells (i.e. both fire and area damage) or not.
If you don't have a total fire resistance, most of the time, you will not be able to use your explosions because you'll friendly-fire yourself with them....
A Dragon Disciple can lay a few delayed fireballs on the ground before the ennemy, then cast fireball at them to draw their attention, then cast incendiary cloud/meteor swarm, then spell contingency for 3xfireballs and have other contingencies triggering when he's hit, throwing even more explosions around him.. A sorcerer trying the same will, if the place is too narrow, just kill himself with his own spells.
Such strategy has a lot of benefits:
- You interrupt EVERY spellcaster in the pack at once
- You damage EVERY enemy at once
- You heal yourself in the process ... and there come the other advantages of this strategy: you are going to economize a lot of spells.
Area of effects spells ignore almost every common anti-magic defense the vanilla game uses: Spell turning, invisibility, shadow door, mislead, spell deflection, sanctuary. => as much spell you won't need to use to remove those protections... who need to cast true sight when you don't need to see your ennemy?
Area of effects spells damage all ennemy spellcasters at once, meaning that it is unlikely you get a single cast in your face => as much magical protections you won't need to cast on yourself
And you're self healing so... you can even tune down the amount physical protections, which is emphased by the fact you also have +5AC compared to any other mage and that you can just... well throw another layer of fire havoc and run in circle with boots of speed if you need to recover some
In fact, explosive spells is all you will need in 90% of the cases. And even a dragon disciple can cast a LOT of explosive spells before needing a rest. Yes, this is the most important point: why don't just cast fire shield and resist to fire with a sorcerer and do the same?
Well, you can. In fact, I'm almost suprised that no ones do. At mid levels, it's probably the most powerful solo strategy a sorcerer can pull out.
But if you're not a Dragon Disciple, you will basicaly spend a lot of money during all the game or sacrifice the precious spells per day casting anti-fire buffs just to do what the Dragon Disciple will do better than you, because:
- He needs no preparation
- He cannot be dispelled
- He stack to 127% with a single ring
- He gains 5AC, a dragon breath, and more hp as a bonus
- heal yourself
- cost 1 level 3 spell choice vs 1 level 3, 1 level 8 and 1 level 9/hla
Both can use this method, one can use it once more per rest/wish while the other can follow it up with a dragon breath that bypasses magic resistance but not fire resistance/immunity.
However, even if it works, 6 skull trap per rest doesn't make "more per rest" (or wish, or clone) than 5 fireball + 5 sunfire + 5 delayed fireball+ 5 meteor swarm (total: 25)
Not accounting that:
- You can't use your version before chapter 4, I can use mine at the very first encounter of the game
- There is only one Cloak of Mirroring, so you will never be able to have a compagnon with you using this strategy. While the DD will probably be able to equip probably 2 fellows with enough fire protection by the end of the game
- The DD can also summon Fire Elementals or Pit Fiends to make things worst for his enemies, since those summons are also immune to fire
Creatures without innate spellcasting will be interrupted at each round, even if they are immune to fire, and its actually quite hard to attack physicaly a mage with a +5 stackable bonus to AC, Mirror Image, Stoneskin, and Contingency, so they will be mostly powerless.
Only innate spellcasting, which cannot be interrupted, can provide a threat against this strategy.
At least, that is on the theorical field.
I've started a run with a DD protagonist to check all this...
Okay, sure. If you consider casting useful spells to be inappropriate, then Dragon Disciple is better, because that level 9 spell was probably going to be wasted casting meteor swarm anyway.
Regardless, there seems to be some confusion as to what constitutes "optimal play", since I see people have mentioned using Meteor Swarm and Delayed Blast Fireballs in a non-ironic context.
1: Aim your damn spells.
Nine times out of ten, you can safely hit a group of people actively meleeing someone just by aiming your spell right. Skull Traps have a tighter AOE, so you can easily thread it in even tight quarters without toasting yourself. If you're bad at aiming spells, you know what? You want Protection from Magic Energy cast on yourself anyway, because Horrid Wiltings hurt, and you have Mirror Images, which stops AOE damage same as it stops everything else.
2: Use your damn spells.
Damage spells, even solo, are not the be all and end all of a Sorcerer. Using nothing but level 5 and below spells that don't deal damage.
Polymorph Self + Haste = Win all combats forever. Polymorph Self lasts for minutes at a time, ignores 99% of spells, ignores a surprisingly large number of hard hitting melee foes (such as trolls, pit fiends, and even things like lich's ghoul touch), has huge resistances to archers, can use wands (so fireball yourself if you really want to waste charges not using the ol' Scorcher), and if they somehow successfully Dispel you, the only thing that will happen is that you'll get your weapon back.
Greater Malaison + Web + Spider Swarm - Save vs. Spell at -2 with a GM gives a level 20 fighter a greater than 50% base chance of being held each round, and you can cast multiple webs at the same spot. There really aren't many "multiple spellcasters" combats in the game, but many of them will also find a 50% base chance of being held and poisoned to death by spiders is not enjoyable.
A level 20 fighter that has been held has an AC of over 9000, and most importantly deals 0 damage to you. Golden Rule: Damage prevention is always better action economy than healing. Spiders are immune to webs, attack many times per round, and shred your enemies while you sip margaritas and contemplate that other people might have to kill their own enemies sometimes, all while safely out of line of sight.
Invisibility - Seriously. Level 2 spell, fantastically useful if you're above cheesing Staff of the Magi. Enemy mages buffed to high heaven? Invisibility, then walk away while they're busy casting "Omega Kill Cluster" and take a quick breather, you can easily wait out their buffs (Warning: Your paladin with 8 Intelligence may consider "taking advantage of a mage's short term buff durations" to be unsporting and insist upon attacking your enemy at their absolute strongest). Surrounded by enemies? Cast it and let them go wallop your summons while you wander off. Archers giving you grief? Power Word: Retarget AI.
Positioning is a useful and powerful tool, and you can easily gather a group, move away and get two or three AOEs of them all clustered together while they pursue you to your new location, potentially taking the opportunity to scout out more enemies and lead them back to the first group for maximum efficiency murder, or lure enemies which can detect invisibility nice and far away from the enemies that can't detect invisibility and kill them in safety.
Chaos - Even on its own, this is one of the best spells to introduce yourself to a group. Any damage an enemy does to their own side is damage that would have hit you, giving it double mileage. -8 save vs. spell with a Malaison gives even epic level mages a >50% chance of fluffing their save, and your average level 12 warrior is going to fail the save even without GM far more often than not.
Animate Dead - Immune to enemy crowd control, poison, level drain, and can be summoned, hasted, and sent to their deaths while you never even enter visual range of the enemy. Sexy. Plus you can totally bust out Skull Traps to explode against them at the edge of LoS to toast anyone meleeing them.
Not taking damage is always, always better than healing yourself from fireballs, particularly on Insane. Even solely, you rarely need to be standing in melee, taking damage or even participating in the lowly peon sandpit where things like AC and HP matter.
3: Don't get damn Meteor Swarm.
Why am I even having to explain this?
Dragon's Breath: Level 9 spell. 20D6 fire that ignores MR. Party Friendly. Knockdown. Doesn't cost a level 9 spell pick.
Meteor Swarm: Trash spell that deals 4D10 damage.
Delayed Blast Fireball is pretty trashy as well, since you're spending a level 7 spell slot to do what you can do with a level 3 spell slot, but at least it's not Meteor Swarm.
tl;dr: Having one strategy oriented around dealing the most frequently resisted type of damage which the Dragon Disciple does "better" than the Sorcerer does not make the Dragon Disciple stronger than the sorcerer.
(Hit points double and AC is reduced by a static number, so the bonuses should stack?)
I realize this becomes irrelevant at high levels, but mid-game, it might be an advantage if you are making a tank-ish Dragon Disciple?
I don't see your point at all, here.
Every strategy, every spell you talked about, the Dragon Disciple can use them too, so they are not an argument to compare the standard Sorcerer and its only class kit.
Also, "the most frequently resisted type" is probably not resisted more than 10% in the game. Seriously, there is indeed more fire immute critters than lighning immute critters in that game... but you don't find a fire immute critters at every doorstep neverless.
It means that on less than on 10% of the encounters, the Dragon Disciple will but "just" as efficient as a regular Sorcerer, and in all the remaining encounters, he will be able to crush his opponents the plain, old-fashioned way: Superior Firepower.
Simulacrum => Tenser => Send him tank => Make the fire rain and heal him while searing every ennemy around.
If I had a level 9 spell to spar, I'll make the Simulacrum cast Black Blade of disaster before Tenser, but that's probably not worth dropping another level 9 spell for that.
You do not want to give your sorcerer a level 6 spell pick dedicated to stopping them from casting spells so they can pretend to be a fighter. Fighters suck at the best of times, and if the Sorcerer can cast spells then their HP is irrelevant, they can get more than double their HP by simply using PfMW once.
Wrong. Every strategy combination I talked about, the Sorcerer can do better, because they have more spells. We established this already.
Secondly, every single strategy of those involves less risk for the sorcerer than trying to brute force your way through enemies. No fear, I'd tell you to avoid getting every lightning and cold spells as well. That said, what % of the game's enemies would actually qualify as "Fights that actually matter"? Do any fall in the list of enemies with fire resistance?
Ankhegs - 50%
Every Balor
Bone Golem
Brain Golem
Clay Golem - 50%
Demon Knights
Devil Shades
Dust Mephits
Every Efreet
Elemental Lich
Every Fire Elemental
Fire Giants - 50%
Fire Mephits
Fire Salamander - 50%
Red Dragons
Certain Fledgeling Vampires - 50%
Every Glabrezu
Gray Ooze
Greater Werewolf - 50%
Greater Wolfwere - 50%
Greater Yuan-Ti - 30%
Invisible Stalkers - 30%
Iron Golems
Lightning Mephit
Magical Swords
Magma Mephits
Mariliths - 50%
Some Nabassu
Nizidramanii'yt (That's black dragon to you) - 20%
Ooze Mephits
Pit Fiends
Salamanders
Salt Mephits
Sand Golems - 50%
Sea Zombies - 50%
Shadows
Shadow Fiends
Steam Mephit
Every Tanar'ri
Certain Vampires - 50%
Vampiric Mists
Yuan-Ti - 30%
So every demon fight, a bunch of elemental fights, every time a mage gates in a demon, every time you see fire themed dungeons, werewolves, swarms of mephits, common undead enemies with multiple dungeons centred around them, and against many popular mage summons. Do you want to list up enemies immune to magic damage or where it's better to use fire damage?
Ahhh, and this is why you're missing my point. You're assuming that the strategy you favour is superior to the above mentioned strategies, and that therefore the fact that the Dragon Disciple can better use this strategy makes them superior.
Well, alright, I don't want to put words in your mouth, so go ahead and make your case. The optimal sorcerer and the optimal dragon disciple both share the same optimal strategy:
"Succeed in the most tasks with the lowest risk and lowest percentage of available resources expended."
In which cases is "standing still and absorbing your own AOEs while taking Fireball, Delayed Blast Fireball, Sunfire and Meteor Swarm as known spells" the optimal strategy for:
Solo play:
Limited Party play:
Full Party play:
And let's be clear here - not "viable", but "optimal", the absolute best thing that the Dragon Disciple can do in "Situation X" is significantly better than the best thing that can be accomplished by the Sorcerer and their additional spells per day. If you can demonstrate that tactics available to the Disciple are optimal for the majority of situations you may encounter in BG, I shall happily cede the point.
You don't need to be "optimal" to be "good", or even "very good", and my question has never been "is the DD more optimal than a sorcerer?" but "is the DD kit that bad?"
Simply put: Most of people speak of the Dragon Disciple like a kit that will make the player feels like "oh damn, why did I pick this kit? It has absolutly nothing worth compared to the base class"... I do feel they are wrong.
The Dragon Disciple, due to its permanent and undispellable immunity to fire, -has- something worth playing it, and this is the access to a very simple and straight-forward strategy that is powerful enough to crush a good chunk of the encounters of this game without any preparation needed nor any kind of micro-management.
This is not 90% of the encounters of the game, you argue.
Perhaps not, but even, it's a very noticeable % of the encounters... Not half of them include a fire-immune foe, and there are ways to deal with them while abusing your own fire immunity during the same fight anyway.
TL;DR: "Fun while efficient enough" is often much better the "optimal". A DD can kill the hardest encounters almost as easily than a Sorcerer due to having the same tools.... but it also have the option to sometimes dispatch a pack of ennemies just by blasting them like a madman, which is brings a bit of fun that the Sorcerer doesn't have.
Personally I wish that dragon disciples were more different from regular sorcerers. Pretty much anything a dragon disciple can do, a regular sorcerer can do, and pretty much anything a regular sorcerer can do, a dragon disciple can do. I did have some fun playing Icewind Dale with a team of six dragon disciples, though. I liked to line my team up and have them all release their fiery breath on the undead horde at the same time.
A dragon disciple CAN play differently from the normal sorcerer, but only if your normal sorcerer has no way of becoming immune to fire each battle.
1: You cannot determine if something is "that bad" or not without having a scale of Good and Bad. For actual mechanical comparison, optimal play must be considered because otherwise you cannot compare two classes together to see if they're good or bad without saying if they are better or worse.
1b: If you gauge good and bad by "fun" or "easy" rather than whether the class is actually mechanically superior or inferior, then nobody can really tell you what you find enjoyable or difficult, so this thread need not exist.
2: If you think that the Dragon Disciple is stronger than the Sorcerer I disagree, because the Optimal Sorcerer and the Optimal Dragon Disciple does the same exact things as the Optimal Sorcerer because Arcane Spells make everything else pointless. If you agree, from an optimisation, and therefore an overall power, perspective, Dragon Disciples are weaker than Sorcerers, then we do not disagree, as I am not discussing other factors such as enjoyment, nor am I suggesting they are bad - see my first post.
Example:
Elf Mage/Thief vs Gnome Illusionist/Thief.
+ They are better at casting Necromancy spells like Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death.
- Additional spells per day and save penalties to Illusion Spells are more useful in more situations than being able to cast Horrid Wilting and Finger of Death.
+ Elven Mage/Thieves get +1 to hit with Longswords, are immune to sleep and charm, and have a higher max Dexterity.
- Gnome I/T's +2-+7 to saving throws and +1 Intelligence are more useful in more situations.
Therefore: Elven Mage/Thief is "Very Good", but "Worse" than an Illusionist/Thief.
That elves are more enjoyable to look at than gnomes, offer alternative strategies via party friendly horrid wiltings, and so forth, does not change the fact that an Illusionist/Thief is a better character from an optimisation perspective.
[spoiler=adorable gnomes]
by http://telthona.deviantart.com/
http://sangrde.deviantart.com/
[/spoiler]
Jan Jansen surely is a handsome specimen by his races' standards.
There is only one "optimal" option in a given set of possibilies, but it doesn't mean than there is no option beside this one which could be considered as "good".
So, once you have decided what's "optimal", you just made the proof than ONE of the option is good, the one you decided as being "optimal", but you didn't made any point about the other options being good or bad at all.
The same way, would you proove that the Sorcerer is the "optimal" way, you would have made no point about the Dragon Disciple being "bad", and have bring no answer to the topic of this thread. I do not have yet an opinion on this. I have to play with my DD more to forge one.
What I know for sure right now, is that there are fights where the DD is much more powerful than the Sorcerer: Some fights that requiered me to reload 1-2 times on max difficulty with my sorcerer have turned into my current playthrough into huge jokes, like "fireball, fireball, fireball, oh... everyone's dead already?"
But on an "overall power perspective", I do not know yet.
If we know what is best, then everything else that is not "best" is "worse". The only way anything can be "good" or "bad" is relative to something else.
And honestly if you're having less trouble with fights because you're now spamming 10D6 capped damage spells that you don't have to aim as carefully, I'm not sure how you were playing a sorcerer to begin with.
It has been said one thousand times already, I don't understand how can you still possibly misunderstand/deny this simple concept.
And I'm sorry, but if you just rely on "Mwuahahahah fireball! Fireball!! FIREBALL!!!!", you'll soon find out that:
1) it's not always possible to use a fireball without damaging targets you don't want to hurt.
2) later on it will become useless due to enemies with high saving-throws, magic resistance, spell immunity, fire resistance.
3) a Sorcerer can simply use Protection from Energy + Fireshield to reach 125 fire AND magic fire resistance and do the same thing but better, since it has one more slot for your precious Fireball spell.
(Side note: the AC bonus not only becomes quickly useless, but it's even bad to have if you want your fireshields to trigger while you're protected by stoneskins, mirror image, PfMW, etc.)