Just to add to point 3) there, because it came up earlier, a regular sorc has an extra level 5 spell to cast Spell Immunity: Abjuration to protect from Dispel / Remove Magic.
"The Sorcerer is BETTER than the DD" doesn't mean that the DD is BAD. It has been said one thousand times already, I don't understand how can you still possibly misunderstand/deny this simple concept.
And I'm sorry, but if you just rely on "Mwuahahahah fireball! Fireball!! FIREBALL!!!!", you'll soon find out that:
1) it's not always possible to use a fireball without damaging targets you don't want to hurt.
2) later on it will become useless due to enemies with high saving-throws, magic resistance, spell immunity, fire resistance.
3) a Sorcerer can simply use Protection from Energy + Fireshield to reach 125 fire AND magic fire resistance and do the same thing but better, since it has one more slot for your precious Fireball spell.
All those things have already been pointed out, and answered.
3) a Sorcerer can simply use Protection from Energy + Fireshield to reach 125 fire AND magic fire resistance and do the same thing but better, since it has one more slot for your precious Fireball spell. (Side note: the AC bonus not only becomes quickly useless, but it's even bad to have if you want your fireshields to trigger while you're protected by stoneskins, mirror image, PfMW, etc.)
I just wanted to mention, and this is true for every buff in the game, that while a buff can be good, an undispellable one that does the same thing is a world better than a dispellable one. So a sorcerer can make a poor simulacrum of fire immunity (at the cost of a level 7 spellcast and a level 4 one), but you cannot match an innate fire immunity. As for your AC thing, well, past some point (and that's very early in BG2) it has become irrelevant because your enemies will hit you on 3/4 of their attacks, and whether it is 3/4 or 4/5 will not make that much of a difference on your damage output through fireshield. By the way, while you may want them to hit you while you have an active PfMW (because taking 1 or 100 hits during that period of time makes no difference), you don't WANT them to hit while you have Stoneskin and Mirror Image only, because that means you will have to renew them and that takes your spellcast for one round.
The DD Kit is pretty useful with SCS installed. A lot of the cheese tactics won't work with SCS installed, and enemies are smart enough to actively dispel your defenses, and to go after your Mage, often times ignoring meat shields standing right in front of them. Having Fire Immunity, extra AC and Health can save your ass when you're against Dispel/Thrust/Breach/Ruby Ray/Spellstrike happy enemy spellcasters. With SCS, prebuffing yourself is mostly a thing of the past.
If you are not playing the most difficult tactical mods (scs, tactics, anvil, ascension, sim may forget some) on insane difficulty then there is just no discussion needed.
For vanilla core I don't see how losing 9 spells in favour of other bonuses is ever going to be bad. There are enough spells left and if you have too few spells just get a secondary mage or bard (or even thief) to take part of the responsibility. In my last play through on core with scs I only used secret word, breach and spell turning/deflection so even a wand or scroll would do. and for level 9 spells everyone is concerned about, I cast only alacrity a few times, not even used wish... but did use freedom quite a bit. In my anvil game I have not decided yet...
So in my observations is a dragon disciple worse than a normal sorceress? Probably if you care about optimisation of spells and casts and damage, otherwise likely not.
3) a Sorcerer can simply use Protection from Energy + Fireshield to reach 125 fire AND magic fire resistance and do the same thing but better, since it has one more slot for your precious Fireball spell. (Side note: the AC bonus not only becomes quickly useless, but it's even bad to have if you want your fireshields to trigger while you're protected by stoneskins, mirror image, PfMW, etc.)
I just wanted to mention, and this is true for every buff in the game, that while a buff can be good, an undispellable one that does the same thing is a world better than a dispellable one. So a sorcerer can make a poor simulacrum of fire immunity (at the cost of a level 7 spellcast and a level 4 one), but you cannot match an innate fire immunity. As for your AC thing, well, past some point (and that's very early in BG2) it has become irrelevant because your enemies will hit you on 3/4 of their attacks, and whether it is 3/4 or 4/5 will not make that much of a difference on your damage output through fireshield. By the way, while you may want them to hit you while you have an active PfMW (because taking 1 or 100 hits during that period of time makes no difference), you don't WANT them to hit while you have Stoneskin and Mirror Image only, because that means you will have to renew them and that takes your spellcast for one round.
This would be true IF Protection from Energy + Fireshield were to give the same benefits as DD fire resistance, which is not the case: they are way better on so many levels. And no, it is unlikely that they will be dispelled since, if you know how to play a Sorcerer, you'll have your Spell Immunity: Abjuration up (yeah, Sorcerers have 1 spell slot more for every level).
Also, as a spellcaster in general, you always cast a Stoneskin before sleeping. Shall we compare how many hits can you avoid every time with 1 more Stoneskin/Mirror Image and how many with some ridiculous AC bonus?
If you are not playing the most difficult tactical mods (scs, tactics, anvil, ascension, sim may forget some) on insane difficulty then there is just no discussion needed.
For vanilla core I don't see how losing 9 spells in favour of other bonuses is ever going to be bad. There are enough spells left and if you have too few spells just get a secondary mage or bard (or even thief) to take part of the responsibility. In my last play through on core with scs I only used secret word, breach and spell turning/deflection so even a wand or scroll would do. and for level 9 spells everyone is concerned about, I cast only alacrity a few times, not even used wish... but did use freedom quite a bit. In my anvil game I have not decided yet...
So in my observations is a dragon disciple worse than a normal sorceress? Probably if you care about optimisation of spells and casts and damage, otherwise likely not.
This doesn't make any sense to me.
You can make a comparison between the 2 only on two aspects: role play and optimization. Since the first is not the factor we're talking about in this thread, the latter is the whole point of the discussion. For example if I play solo with SCS, Tactics, Ascension, PS mod and some others, choosing secret word, spell turning and spell deflection is redundant with other better spells and, therefore, already a bad optimization of the class.
This would be true IF Protection from Energy + Fireshield were to give the same benefits as DD fire resistance, which is not the case: they are way better on so many levels. And no, it is unlikely that they will be dispelled since, if you know how to play a Sorcerer, you'll have your Spell Immunity: Abjuration up (yeah, Sorcerers have 1 spell slot more for every level).
Understand that the point is not to say a DD is better than a Sorcer, it's different and have some quirks that a Sorcerer don't have.
Both advantages of the Sorcerer and DD are useful in some given situations. But certainly not in every situation. The question would be: what we need the more often? Additionnal party-friend AoE spells? Or more of 6th spell charge of a given spell level?
Party-friendly AoE spells are really advantageous on the tactical side: Think about Horrid Withering, Insect plague or Dragon Breath, that's not for nothing they are among the top spells people condider to take. They are spells who damage every opponent and interrupt every spellcaster in one cast.
Even if there are solo damage spells that are more damaging, when you have 6 opponents, a simple AoE spell is worth at least 3 cast of a single-target spells, not even accounting the interruption factor... but now, if you have to cast 3 spells buffs only to be able to use that AoE spell without damaging yourself, it's not worth it.
The DD remove the need for those buffs, and suddently, in a round where what you need the most is to do damage and interrupt, you have a 3 more AoE damage spell that are worth using. Sure, they will suffer the same problem as most attacks: there are counters. But still, those spell suddently become viable strategical options where, for a sorceror, there were simply not.
This is what's the Dragon Disciple is about: More strategical options.
And... yes, many many times, you don't need them. But many many times, you don't need more spells either.
You can make a comparison between the 2 only on two aspects: role play and optimization. Since the first is not the factor we're talking about in this thread, the latter is the whole point of the discussion. For example if I play solo with SCS, Tactics, Ascension, PS mod and some others, choosing secret word, spell turning and spell deflection is redundant with other better spells and, therefore, already a bad optimization of the class.
Nowhere was it actually mentioned that the comparison had to be based on solo/insane/tactical_mod context or not. The usage of tactical mods was only vaguely mentioned by posters if at all. And vanilla/core is for quite a few players the norm.
Therefore, I disagree with you.
Since the original poster did not specify difficulty context, me supplying an answer in the context of vanilla/core being "it does not significantly matter" is very valid, although I accept that people are free to share experiences where those extra level 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 spells have really made any difference at any time in their games in which case I may concede that my statement was erroneous. I also clearly state that for tactical mods I can understand that it might make a difference but from my experience playing those I see no difference except for maybe improved anvil (because that is script-cheating hell). I said that in my last scs/core play through pretty much only those spells were really important, but I did not say I played solo did I? I play in a party, so why does it matter then that my sorceress needs to be fully optimized when I still have 5 others (1 being part arcane) who can do their job as well. I never ran out of spells with the sorceress because my other party members can actually carry their weight. So tactics like wish-rest were not needed at all even for an scs/core game.
I really do not understand why all these discussions always have to either be about solo (completely different context of which spells are useful) or a numerical game about showing that one only does X damage and another X+marginal more damage. Superfluous. I do not think that is what the original poster is after at all.
Nowhere was it actually mentioned that the comparison had to be based on solo/insane/tactical_mod context or not. The usage of tactical mods was only vaguely mentioned by posters if at all. And vanilla/core is for quite a few players the norm.
Therefore, I disagree with you.
...
I really do not understand why all these discussions always have to either be about solo (completely different context of which spells are useful) or a numerical game about showing that one only does X damage and another X+marginal more damage. Superfluous. I do not think that is what the original poster is after at all.
As a matter of fact, the first time the Sorcerer was imported in the game, I have done an almost full solo playthrough with it. And I'm currently doing one with the DD since quite a bit of time now... so, even if I still have to see the end of the game with the DD, I -do- have some real testing feedback on the topic.
The main point that every DD-hater here is bringing is "it's not worth losing one spell charge of each level". Yet, I've asked many times, and Iroumen did to, without getting any answer from you: "in which fight did that currently matter?"
Let's summarise this thread, shall we?
DiscipleLover: Is the Dragon Disciple bad?
Optimiser: It's worse than the Sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: It's not bad, though.
Optimiser: No, it's better than a lot of classes, it's just worse than the Sorcerer, because Fire Resistance and AC don't really matter, there are loads of ways the sorcerer can get those things.
DiscipleLover: But I can use this tactic!
Optimiser: That's fine, but that tactic isn't really any better than any other tactic, worse than quite a few, actually.
DiscipleLover: But it's working, so the Dragon Disciple isn't bad.
Optimiser: Well, it's good compared to most other classes, but when people say it's bad they're comparing it to the sorcerer. There's just no real point in being a Disciple over a sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: Why?
Optimiser: Because spells are really, really useful. The best thing you can have in any situation is a spell, because you can use that spell to do anything, even become immune to fire and get loads of AC if that ever comes up.
DiscipleLover: But then you have to use spells to accomplish that.
Optimiser: Yes, but it doesn't happen often, and you wanted to get that spell anyway, because it's useful in a lot of situations, and you get an extra spell for being a sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: Yeah, but if you want to use this tactic, you'd need to use a lot of spells to do it.
Optimiser: Yes, but we've already established that using that tactic isn't actually better than these other tactics.
DiscipleLover: But I can use Disciples with these tactics to beat encounters.
Optimiser: Of course you can, because the Dragon Disciple is better than a lot of classes, it's just worse than the Sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: But being immune to my own fireballs makes everything easier.
Optimiser: Have you considered that you just have bad aim?
DiscipleLover: Whatever, name one combat where having an extra spell is useful.
Optimiser: Any of the five combats where fire resistance is worth having, for starters.
DiscipleLover: But then they can dispel your fire resistance and you ended up casting spells on it.
Optimiser: Well, yes, but I get extra spells, and still get all these other spells of every level to make it undispellable.
DiscipleLover: But the Disciple's not bad though. Goto Start.
So, in a bid to end the samsara that is this thread, let's hammer this down.
Fact: Fire Resistance and Armour Class are useful in certain combats.
Fact: In those combats, the Sorcerer can cast spells that give them Fire Resistance and Armour Class or make Fire Resistance and Armour Class unnecessary. They are also immune to dispelling because sorcerer.
Fact: There are situations where Fire Resistance and Armour Class are not typically useful,
Fact: The Dragon Disciple cannot turn off their Fire Resistance and Armour Class to give them more spells in these situations.
Fact: There are more situations where Fire Resistance and Armour Class are not typically.
Proposal: While it is possible to engineer situations where you leverage the Disciple's Fire Resistance and Armour Class, even if it were equal, this strategy is not superior to other options both classes have available.
If this proposal is agreed upon (and you've already agreed previously), then the following statement can be considered to be true:
The Sorcerer can produce the bonuses given by the Dragon Disciple whenever it matters, at lower resource cost than one spell per spell level.
And if the above statement is true, then the following statement is not pejorative, but informative:
The only reason to play a Dragon Disciple is because you like the kit thematically or want to use tactics centred around their permanent fire resistance and armour class for enjoyment purposes.
I followed this thread for a long time but I didn't post anything until now because I don't have much time to post a wall of text. And I still don't have enough time.
But I played a lot of arcane casters, including Sorcerers and Dragon Disciple, and I can say for sure that the Dragon Disciple is on par with the Sorcerer in Baldur's Gate (and probably in Icewind Dale). I actually even prefer the Dragon Disciple.
-First of all because the additional spell of the Sorcerer doesn't really matter, if you play with a full party, a single class arcane caster will mostly play the role of a Breach / Ruby Ray of Reversal user. I concluded a trilogy no-reload recently with a Blackguard in the no-reload thread, my main arcane caster was Edwin. Sure, Edwin is mighty with 8 max spells per level per day but I didn't need to cast a single Project Image of the whole game. Fights were over far too soon, you don't need to cast more than a few spells everytime you face an encounter.
Having 5 or 9 spells won't change much, you don't need a lot to be effective, and only you can decide when you want to rest to replenish your stock. And you could always use Project Image / Simulacrum / Spell Trap loops / Wish to get an infinite number of spells anyway.
-Then the Dragon Disciple bonuses, which are quite good and impossible to dispel, this have been covered already. It's true that an additional spell of each level could do mostly the same even if you probably won't learn Protection from Fire as a Sorcerer, and if you wait until Protection from the Elements to get something the Dragon Disciple has since quite a lot of time, you could have some troubles earlier in the game. Plus you can replicate the AC bonus with spells, but nothing prevent you to stack this bonus AC with other spells to get even more AC.
And contrary to what many are saying, AC is definitely not useless and you can for sure make it worthwhile in ToB. You just need to stack it.
"Shall we compare how many hits can you avoid every time with 1 more Stoneskin/Mirror Image and how many with some ridiculous AC bonus?"
Yes we could, and in some instances, the AC bonus could make you 500% more durable (going from a 30% hit probability to a 5% one (critical hit)).
But these two arguments are in my opinion more subjective than objective because it depends on how much you value AC, how much you value Fire Resistance, do you consider that a lot of enemies are doing fire based damage? Are these foes dangerous? And so forth.
But to my mind, the really great point of the Dragon Disciple, which makes me prefer them to a regular Sorcerer is the aura management.
You want to get the AC bonus? You can cast Blur+Protection from Evil, but you need to spend an aura for it. You want to simulate the HP bonus to help prevent against Power Word : Stun? You can cast Spell Immunity, but you need to spend an aura for it. You want the Fire Resistance? You can cast Protection from Fire, but you need to spend an aura for it. You want these buffs to be impossible to dispel? You can cast Spell Immunity, but you need to spend an aura for it.
A Dragon Disciple will be able to participate more in the fights because he won't need to cast as many spells than its regular counterpart.
Oh, a Dragon's Breath is coming your way! Quick, drink a Potion of Fire Resistance! You will still take damage (not very important as long as you survive) but you just use your spellcasting for the round.
Some randoms guys are pelting you with arrows? They are breaking your Stoneskin? Oh, not a problem, you can simply cast another one (and you can, because as a Sorcerer you have one more spell!). You just lose your spellcasting for the round.
In both of these situations, which are quite frequent in my setup (every casters get HLAs), the Dragon Disciple will be able to focus more on Breaching, Dispeling and so forth. They have more auras available to do what they need. And this cannot be emulated by an additional spell.
Another very good aspect of the kit IMO is the underrated Breath Weapon. The damage don't look incredible, I agree. But there is no save and MR doesn't apply, which means that it's basically 80% of a Dragon's Breath considering that enemies will save against nearly everything soon enough. The casting time is quick, you can notably use it with Improved Alacrity for additional firepower.
And, most importantly, your Project Images and Simulacrum can use it aswell. Which means you can fastly unleashed large salves of MR bypassing fire, which is quite handy for a single class arcane caster.
Of course my opinion is biased because I'm only playing No-Reload so I highly value defense over offense, plus with the SCS component which gives HLAs to every eligible casters, I'm very frequently (every encounters actually) getting blasted by Comet + Dragon's Breath, so the impossible to dispel and permanent Fire Resistance is golden. Plus I really never manage to use all my spells in a fight, you simply have too many, even in BG1 in the MP No-Reload I'm playing as a Wild Mage, and I have so many spells, even in BG1, most fights are decided in about 3 rounds (Dispel or True Sight from Tresset, backstabs from Bengoshi or Greater Malison + Web/Chaos from my character).
TL;DR
I would rather have the permanent AC or the Fire Resistance to be able to focus on dispeling than having an additional spell slot I'm not going to use anyway.
The main point that every DD-hater here is bringing is "it's not worth losing one spell charge of each level". Yet, I've asked many times, and Iroumen did to, without getting any answer from you: "in which fight did that currently matter?"
Let's summarise this thread, shall we?
DiscipleLover: Is the Dragon Disciple bad?
Optimiser: It's worse than the Sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: It's not bad, though.
Optimiser: No, it's better than a lot of classes, it's just worse than the Sorcerer, because Fire Resistance and AC don't really matter, there are loads of ways the sorcerer can get those things.
DiscipleLover: But I can use this tactic!
Optimiser: That's fine, but that tactic isn't really any better than any other tactic, worse than quite a few, actually.
DiscipleLover: But it's working, so the Dragon Disciple isn't bad.
Optimiser: Well, it's good compared to most other classes, but when people say it's bad they're comparing it to the sorcerer. There's just no real point in being a Disciple over a sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: Why?
Optimiser: Because spells are really, really useful. The best thing you can have in any situation is a spell, because you can use that spell to do anything, even become immune to fire and get loads of AC if that ever comes up.
DiscipleLover: But then you have to use spells to accomplish that.
Optimiser: Yes, but it doesn't happen often, and you wanted to get that spell anyway, because it's useful in a lot of situations, and you get an extra spell for being a sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: Yeah, but if you want to use this tactic, you'd need to use a lot of spells to do it.
Optimiser: Yes, but we've already established that using that tactic isn't actually better than these other tactics.
DiscipleLover: But I can use Disciples with these tactics to beat encounters.
Optimiser: Of course you can, because the Dragon Disciple is better than a lot of classes, it's just worse than the Sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: But being immune to my own fireballs makes everything easier.
Optimiser: Have you considered that you just have bad aim?
DiscipleLover: Whatever, name one combat where having an extra spell is useful.
Optimiser: Any of the five combats where fire resistance is worth having, for starters.
DiscipleLover: But then they can dispel your fire resistance and you ended up casting spells on it.
Optimiser: Well, yes, but I get extra spells, and still get all these other spells of every level to make it undispellable.
DiscipleLover: But the Disciple's not bad though. Goto Start.
So, in a bid to end the samsara that is this thread, let's hammer this down.
Fact: Fire Resistance and Armour Class are useful in certain combats.
Fact: In those combats, the Sorcerer can cast spells that give them Fire Resistance and Armour Class or make Fire Resistance and Armour Class unnecessary. They are also immune to dispelling because sorcerer.
Fact: There are situations where Fire Resistance and Armour Class are not typically useful,
Fact: The Dragon Disciple cannot turn off their Fire Resistance and Armour Class to give them more spells in these situations.
Fact: There are more situations where Fire Resistance and Armour Class are not typically.
Proposal: While it is possible to engineer situations where you leverage the Disciple's Fire Resistance and Armour Class, even if it were equal, this strategy is not superior to other options both classes have available.
If this proposal is agreed upon (and you've already agreed previously), then the following statement can be considered to be true:
The Sorcerer can produce the bonuses given by the Dragon Disciple whenever it matters, at lower resource cost than one spell per spell level.
And if the above statement is true, then the following statement is not pejorative, but informative:
The only reason to play a Dragon Disciple is because you like the kit thematically or want to use tactics centred around their permanent fire resistance and armour class for enjoyment purposes.
Aka: Roleplay reasons.
You're a lot more patient than me, that's for sure
@Gotural Thank you, you covered most of the points I was thinking about to explain to Pantalion while he's wrong... and some others I didn't though about like auras, since I don't use that mod... and at least, SpaceInvader can't accuse you to only do theories, with no experience, given the playthrough you have completed.
Perhaps that with someone like you explaining them all those points, they will be less prone to get haughty and troll.
PS: there is another advantage to DD permanent fire resistance: you don't need to bother to learn fire resistance spells, so it frees two slots into your spellbook that you can use to learn something else.
@Gotural Thank you, you covered most of the points I was thinking about (and some other I didn't though about like aures) to answer to Pantalion while he's wrong... and at least, SpaceInvader can't accuse you to only do theories, with no experience, given the playthrough you have completed.
Perhaps that with someone like you telling them all those points, they will be less prone to get haughty and troll.
PS: oh, and there is another advantage to DD permanent fire resistance: you don't need to bother to learn fire resistance spells, so it frees to slots into your spellbook that you can use to learn something else.
Man, I'm sorry. But you still have no idea what you're talking about. Fine with me, tho. Enjoy this awesome game
I followed this thread for a long time but I didn't post anything until now because I don't have much time to post a wall of text. And I still don't have enough time.
But I played a lot of arcane casters, including Sorcerers and Dragon Disciple, and I can say for sure that the Dragon Disciple is on par with the Sorcerer in Baldur's Gate (and probably in Icewind Dale). I actually even prefer the Dragon Disciple.
-First of all because the additional spell of the Sorcerer doesn't really matter, if you play with a full party, a single class arcane caster will mostly play the role of a Breach / Ruby Ray of Reversal user. I concluded a trilogy no-reload recently with a Blackguard in the no-reload thread, my main arcane caster was Edwin. Sure, Edwin is mighty with 8 max spells per level per day but I didn't need to cast a single Project Image of the whole game. Fights were over far too soon, you don't need to cast more than a few spells everytime you face an encounter.
Having 5 or 9 spells won't change much, you don't need a lot to be effective, and only you can decide when you want to rest to replenish your stock. And you could always use Project Image / Simulacrum / Spell Trap loops / Wish to get an infinite number of spells anyway.
Then you can even use a bard for what it matters. Edwin is already more than what you need for the entire vanilla BG2:EE.
-Then the Dragon Disciple bonuses, which are quite good and impossible to dispel, this have been covered already. It's true that an additional spell of each level could do mostly the same even if you probably won't learn Protection from Fire as a Sorcerer, and if you wait until Protection from the Elements to get something the Dragon Disciple has since quite a lot of time, you could have some troubles earlier in the game. Plus you can replicate the AC bonus with spells, but nothing prevent you to stack this bonus AC with other spells to get even more AC.
Nope, no need to waste a slot for Fire Resistance. You just need a Ring of Fire Resistance and you can get it almost immediately. Just use Ring of Regen + Ring of Sorcery normally and switch Regen to Fire if you REALLY need to.
"Shall we compare how many hits can you avoid every time with 1 more Stoneskin/Mirror Image and how many with some ridiculous AC bonus?"
Yes we could, and in some instances, the AC bonus could make you 500% more durable (going from a 30% hit probability to a 5% one (critical hit)).
But these two arguments are in my opinion more subjective than objective because it depends on how much you value AC, how much you value Fire Resistance, do you consider that a lot of enemies are doing fire based damage? Are these foes dangerous? And so forth.
But to my mind, the really great point of the Dragon Disciple, which makes me prefer them to a regular Sorcerer is the aura management.
You want to get the AC bonus? You can cast Blur+Protection from Evil, but you need to spend an aura for it.
Oh, a Dragon's Breath is coming your way! Quick, drink a Potion of Fire Resistance! You will still take damage (not very important as long as you survive) but you just use your spellcasting for the round.
I'm facing a foe with Dragon's Breath and I don't have 1 more Chain Contingecy/Time Stop/Improved Alacrity compared to a DD to cast? I mean... Really?
Some randoms guys are pelting you with arrows? They are breaking your Stoneskin? Oh, not a problem, you can simply cast another one (and you can, because as a Sorcerer you have one more spell!). You just lose your spellcasting for the round.
Are we talking about BG:EE? Because if so, For sure this +1/2 AC bonus is not gonna save my life. As For BG2:EE, there are no archers I can't deal with before my Stoneskin fades off.
Another very good aspect of the kit IMO is the underrated Breath Weapon. The damage don't look incredible, I agree. But there is no save and MR doesn't apply, which means that it's basically 80% of a Dragon's Breath considering that enemies will save against nearly everything soon enough. The casting time is quick, you can notably use it with Improved Alacrity for additional firepower.
OR you can simply use a Dragon's Breath HLA instead.
And, most importantly, your Project Images and Simulacrum can use it aswell. Which means you can fastly unleashed large salves of MR bypassing fire, which is quite handy for a single class arcane caster.
A Dragon's Breath works the same. Aside dealing more damage, wider radius and potentially knocking back, of course.
Of course my opinion is biased because I'm only playing No-Reload so I highly value defense over offense, plus with the SCS component which gives HLAs to every eligible casters, I'm very frequently (every encounters actually) getting blasted by Comet + Dragon's Breath, so the impossible to dispel and permanent Fire Resistance is golden.
Plus I really never manage to use all my spells in a fight, you simply have too many, even in BG1 in the MP No-Reload I'm playing as a Wild Mage, and I have so many spells, even in BG1, most fights are decided in about 3 rounds (Dispel or True Sight from Tresset, backstabs from Bengoshi or Greater Malison + Web/Chaos from my character).
Then stop playing super easy runs and start to challenge yourself more
3) a Sorcerer can simply use Protection from Energy + Fireshield to reach 125 fire AND magic fire resistance and do the same thing but better, since it has one more slot for your precious Fireball spell. (Side note: the AC bonus not only becomes quickly useless, but it's even bad to have if you want your fireshields to trigger while you're protected by stoneskins, mirror image, PfMW, etc.)
I just wanted to mention, and this is true for every buff in the game, that while a buff can be good, an undispellable one that does the same thing is a world better than a dispellable one. So a sorcerer can make a poor simulacrum of fire immunity (at the cost of a level 7 spellcast and a level 4 one), but you cannot match an innate fire immunity. As for your AC thing, well, past some point (and that's very early in BG2) it has become irrelevant because your enemies will hit you on 3/4 of their attacks, and whether it is 3/4 or 4/5 will not make that much of a difference on your damage output through fireshield. By the way, while you may want them to hit you while you have an active PfMW (because taking 1 or 100 hits during that period of time makes no difference), you don't WANT them to hit while you have Stoneskin and Mirror Image only, because that means you will have to renew them and that takes your spellcast for one round.
This would be true IF Protection from Energy + Fireshield were to give the same benefits as DD fire resistance, which is not the case: they are way better on so many levels. And no, it is unlikely that they will be dispelled since, if you know how to play a Sorcerer, you'll have your Spell Immunity: Abjuration up (yeah, Sorcerers have 1 spell slot more for every level).
Also, as a spellcaster in general, you always cast a Stoneskin before sleeping. Shall we compare how many hits can you avoid every time with 1 more Stoneskin/Mirror Image and how many with some ridiculous AC bonus?
No need to make negative innuendos on my skills, it is hardly the place and I have no interest in such a conversation. That aside, spell immunity does not protect your from any spell that attacks magical defenses, whether spell thrust or spellstrike. If someone uses spellstrike on you and then dispel magic, and many SCS high level mage do, then you will have other things to do in the next few rounds before you recast Fireshield, Protection from energy and SI: Abjuration. Not to mention, these are spellpicks (on top of spellcasts) and you have a limited amount of them. You might have more spellcasts as a sorcerer, but you also have just as many spellpicks. Level 4 spells, for example. Let me list good level 4 spells that come to my mind: Stoneskin Fireshield: Red Fireshield: Blue Teleport field Spider spawn Secret word Minor sequencer Polymorph Self Grand Malison
That's 9 good spells and only 5 picks (only 4 for most of the game). Knowing that I can choose Fireshield: Blue that does about the same as fireshield: red (but better because less enemies are immune to cold) because I have a 100% innate fire resistance makes the choice easier. I could say the same about 8th level spells. There are more than 4 good 8th level spells, and you only get 4.
As for your last argument ("how many hits can an additionnal stoneskin/mirror image tank?") I'd say that, past some point, it is a question of time it tanks more than a question of amount of hits. Casting an extra stoneskin/mirror image takes two rounds. Depending on the fight, these may not even last two rounds (even if they are not breached or anything). Even if they do, how much time did you gain (considering you lost 2 rounds to cast them)? Honestly I don't know but that's the real question one should ask. By the way you have no extra stoneskin considering you already have used your extra 4th level spell with Fireshield.
If someone uses spellstrike on you and then dispel magic, and many SCS high level mage do, then you will have other things to do in the next few rounds before you recast Fireshield, Protection from energy and SI: Abjuration.
If someone uses Spell Strike, it means I'm high enough to have Spell Shield. But it's not a problem anyway. If I realize that I can't avoid this Spell Strike, so be it: it will dispel my SI, and not my elemental resistance. Elemental resistance can be only dispelled by a dispel/remove magic or breach, and all of them are blocked by SI:A in SCS.
Not to mention, these are spellpicks (on top of spellcasts) and you have a limited amount of them. You might have more spellcasts as a sorcerer, but you also have just as many spellpicks. Level 4 spells, for example. Let me list good level 4 spells that come to my mind: Stoneskin Fireshield: Red Fireshield: Blue Teleport field Spider spawn Secret word Minor sequencer Polymorph Self Grand Malison
That's 9 good spells and only 5 picks (only 4 for most of the game). Knowing that I can choose Fireshield: Blue that does about the same as fireshield: red (but better because less enemies are immune to cold) because I have a 100% innate fire resistance makes the choice easier. I could say the same about 8th level spells. There are more than 4 good 8th level spells, and you only get 4.
There are more than 5 good spells per level, yes. Do you NEED to know more than 5? No. As regards your example, you don't need Teleport Field nor Secret Word or Minor Sequencer. Not because they are bad, just because they are superfluous or have a better counterpart at higher levels.
As for your last argument ("how many hits can an additionnal stoneskin/mirror image tank?") I'd say that, past some point, it is a question of time it tanks more than a question of amount of hits. Casting an extra stoneskin/mirror image takes two rounds. Depending on the fight, these may not even last two rounds (even if they are not breached or anything). Even if they do, how much time did you gain (considering you lost 2 rounds to cast them)? Honestly I don't know but that's the real question one should ask. By the way you have no extra stoneskin considering you already have used your extra 4th level spell with Fireshield.
If casting this Stoneskin is a matter of life and death, I simply use a contingency. More spells = more versatility.
Then you can even use a bard for what it matters. Edwin is already more than what you need for the entire vanilla BG2:EE.
Did I forgot to mention that I was playing with SCS with every difficulty enhancing components? A Dragon Disciple is also enough for the entire BG2:EE with SCS. What matters is your aura management, what will make you able to destroy Mages easily is having at least 2-3 characters able to cast Breach, Secret Word, RRR and so forth at the same time.
Nope, no need to waste a slot for Fire Resistance. You just need a Ring of Fire Resistance and you can get it almost immediately. Just use Ring of Regen + Ring of Sorcery normally and switch Regen to Fire if you REALLY need to.
Ring of Fire Control is +50% and not 100% Ring of Fire Resistance is only 40%.
How many enemies cast that before I have enough HP, Staff of the Magi and... Does a potion of free movement work?
A lot actually if you play with SCS. Staff of the Magi won't make you invisible with SCS, plus you earn it in a very difficult encounter (once again with SCS) where everyone use HLAs (SCS) and I'm playing No-Reload. I'm not going in there until chapter 6, which is the end of SoA. You gulp a potion? You used an aura, it's exactly my point.
I'm facing a foe with Dragon's Breath and I don't have 1 more Chain Contingecy/Time Stop/Improved Alacrity compared to a DD to cast? I mean... Really?
Yes actually, with the SCS component "every eligibles casters get HLAs in SoA" you're going to face Dragon's Breath, Comet and Summon Dark Planetar everywhere in Amn right from the start.
-Korgan's quest? A lich with HLAs. -Edwin's quest? A lich with HLAs. -Lavok? HLAs. -Tolgerias? HLAs. -Guarded Compound? HLAs. -Shade Lich? HLAs. -Elemental Lich? HLAs. -Kangaxx? HLAs in both form. And so forth.
Plus if you cast an additional Time Stop or Improved Alacrity (which means that you manage to cast 5 level 9 spells as a Dragon Disciple and you still did not win the fight) you used another aura.
Are we talking about BG:EE? Because if so, For sure this +1/2 AC bonus is not gonna save my life. As For BG2:EE, there are no archers I can't deal with before my Stoneskin fades off.
It's already very good in BG:EE. The more AC you have, the better it becomes. Put in another way, the value of the next point of AC increases the more AC you have (until you get hit only on a critical hit).
If you get hit 95% of the time (everytime except on a critical miss), then having 1 more AC will get you to a 90% hit probability, reducing damage by 5.3% on average. (Assuming of course that the additional AC will do something) The next point will get you from 90% to 85% hit probability, reducing damage on average by 5.7% 85% to 80% = 5.9% damage reduction.
As you can see the value of AC increases slowly at first, which is why many people think it is useless. Because they go from -10 AC to -12 AC in ToB and feel no difference. But as I said before, you need to stack it.
going from 25% to 20% will reduce damage by 20% 20% to 15% by 25% 15% to 10% by 33% 10% to 5% by 50%
As you can see, the value of AC quickly ramp us the closer you get to being hit on a critical hit only which is why going from -10 to -12 in ToB is useless but going from -30 to -32 is a huge increase.
And because AC is mostly determined by your gear and spells (contrary to THAC0 which is mostly determined by your level), you can reach an impossible to hit AC very early in BG:EE which means that a +1/+2 bonus in the first few levels is already really good.
Finally in ToB, AC is still highly relevant, in my last playthrough I had both Charname and Dorn sitting at -36 AC against crushing (without a shield), The Ravager has only -17 THAC0 and is the only enemy who could hit me on something else than a critical hit, he is so badass he could hit me on 19-20 instead.
Having more AC on a caster is really good because it allows you to cast Mirror Image + Stoneskin less often which translates into more Breach / RRR etc.
Then stop playing super easy runs and start to challenge yourself in some ways.
The MP No-Reload is also with SCS, we are playing 3 characters in a 5 man party (less xp) and playing MP is vastly more difficult than playing single player because of the lack of coordination and the lags.
I'm actually playing SCS No-Reload while you are talking about the invisibility from the Staff of the Magi, getting attacked by casters without HLAs and so forth. I'm not sure I need to increase the difficulty of my run.
@Gotural I didn't installed the removal of the staff of the magi's invisibility, simply because I did that encounter at lvl 12 with a solo Sorcerer (with SCS and Tactics) and the Mage kept going invisible the whole time, which was the hardest thing of the encounter since you can't target her and she has Spell Immunity. So I found appropriate to keep the staff's original design.
Normal Ring of Fire Protection + Fire Shield, Ring + Potion, Ring + Scroll and you already reach 90% fire res, if you need total immunity just combine them or eventually get the Ring of Fire Control. Then there is Protection from Energy, imo a must-have for Sorc. It is essentially a waste to trade 1 spell per level for this class fire resistance.
Enough discussion on my side, anyway. We've all exposed our points of view. Enjoy your game
@luskan , "Aura" is the term referring to the mechanic that certain actions can only be performed once per round, such as drinking a potion, reading a scroll, or beginning a spell (without Alacrity).
So we can say for example, "I needed to drink a potion of healing immediately, but my aura wasn't clean, so I died."
There are many actions that you might need quickly in an emergency, and waiting for the beginning of the next round can be fatal. I can't count the times I've been sitting at the party controls, thinking, "Come on, drink the potion...drink it! DRINK IT! What's taking you so long?"
In a mob of enemies, if you've already spent your aura action for the round ("aura not clean"), they all get all their attacks and spells for that round before you can take another action.
The only reason to play a Dragon Disciple is because you like the kit thematically or want to use tactics centred around their permanent fire resistance and armour class for enjoyment purposes.
Aka: Roleplay reasons.
maybe you forget convenience. that's different from roleplay reasons
Comments
Gnomes have joined the police force... And they have zero tolerance to gnomophobia!
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-manchester-35658166
As for your AC thing, well, past some point (and that's very early in BG2) it has become irrelevant because your enemies will hit you on 3/4 of their attacks, and whether it is 3/4 or 4/5 will not make that much of a difference on your damage output through fireshield. By the way, while you may want them to hit you while you have an active PfMW (because taking 1 or 100 hits during that period of time makes no difference), you don't WANT them to hit while you have Stoneskin and Mirror Image only, because that means you will have to renew them and that takes your spellcast for one round.
For vanilla core I don't see how losing 9 spells in favour of other bonuses is ever going to be bad. There are enough spells left and if you have too few spells just get a secondary mage or bard (or even thief) to take part of the responsibility.
In my last play through on core with scs I only used secret word, breach and spell turning/deflection so even a wand or scroll would do. and for level 9 spells everyone is concerned about, I cast only alacrity a few times, not even used wish... but did use freedom quite a bit. In my anvil game I have not decided yet...
So in my observations is a dragon disciple worse than a normal sorceress? Probably if you care about optimisation of spells and casts and damage, otherwise likely not.
Dragons are more enjoyable to look at than either Gnomes or elves and this is coming from man who is fair and balanced.
[spoiler=Look at the cute little dragon]
[/spoiler]
And no, it is unlikely that they will be dispelled since, if you know how to play a Sorcerer, you'll have your Spell Immunity: Abjuration up (yeah, Sorcerers have 1 spell slot more for every level).
Also, as a spellcaster in general, you always cast a Stoneskin before sleeping.
Shall we compare how many hits can you avoid every time with 1 more Stoneskin/Mirror Image and how many with some ridiculous AC bonus?
This doesn't make any sense to me.
You can make a comparison between the 2 only on two aspects: role play and optimization.
Since the first is not the factor we're talking about in this thread, the latter is the whole point of the discussion.
For example if I play solo with SCS, Tactics, Ascension, PS mod and some others, choosing secret word, spell turning and spell deflection is redundant with other better spells and, therefore, already a bad optimization of the class.
Both advantages of the Sorcerer and DD are useful in some given situations. But certainly not in every situation.
The question would be: what we need the more often? Additionnal party-friend AoE spells? Or more of 6th spell charge of a given spell level?
Party-friendly AoE spells are really advantageous on the tactical side: Think about Horrid Withering, Insect plague or Dragon Breath, that's not for nothing they are among the top spells people condider to take. They are spells who damage every opponent and interrupt every spellcaster in one cast.
Even if there are solo damage spells that are more damaging, when you have 6 opponents, a simple AoE spell is worth at least 3 cast of a single-target spells, not even accounting the interruption factor... but now, if you have to cast 3 spells buffs only to be able to use that AoE spell without damaging yourself, it's not worth it.
The DD remove the need for those buffs, and suddently, in a round where what you need the most is to do damage and interrupt, you have a 3 more AoE damage spell that are worth using.
Sure, they will suffer the same problem as most attacks: there are counters. But still, those spell suddently become viable strategical options where, for a sorceror, there were simply not.
This is what's the Dragon Disciple is about: More strategical options.
And... yes, many many times, you don't need them.
But many many times, you don't need more spells either.
I can only suggest you to try to solo the whole trilogy with a Sorcerer and a DD (doesn't matter the difficulty mode).
When your ideas will be based on experience and not only on theories, I'll be glad to exchange opinions again.
Therefore, I disagree with you.
Since the original poster did not specify difficulty context, me supplying an answer in the context of vanilla/core being "it does not significantly matter" is very valid, although I accept that people are free to share experiences where those extra level 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9 spells have really made any difference at any time in their games in which case I may concede that my statement was erroneous.
I also clearly state that for tactical mods I can understand that it might make a difference but from my experience playing those I see no difference except for maybe improved anvil (because that is script-cheating hell). I said that in my last scs/core play through pretty much only those spells were really important, but I did not say I played solo did I? I play in a party, so why does it matter then that my sorceress needs to be fully optimized when I still have 5 others (1 being part arcane) who can do their job as well. I never ran out of spells with the sorceress because my other party members can actually carry their weight. So tactics like wish-rest were not needed at all even for an scs/core game.
I really do not understand why all these discussions always have to either be about solo (completely different context of which spells are useful) or a numerical game about showing that one only does X damage and another X+marginal more damage. Superfluous. I do not think that is what the original poster is after at all.
As regards solo, that where you can see the true limits of a class.
@Moonheart as you wish.
DiscipleLover: Is the Dragon Disciple bad?
Optimiser: It's worse than the Sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: It's not bad, though.
Optimiser: No, it's better than a lot of classes, it's just worse than the Sorcerer, because Fire Resistance and AC don't really matter, there are loads of ways the sorcerer can get those things.
DiscipleLover: But I can use this tactic!
Optimiser: That's fine, but that tactic isn't really any better than any other tactic, worse than quite a few, actually.
DiscipleLover: But it's working, so the Dragon Disciple isn't bad.
Optimiser: Well, it's good compared to most other classes, but when people say it's bad they're comparing it to the sorcerer. There's just no real point in being a Disciple over a sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: Why?
Optimiser: Because spells are really, really useful. The best thing you can have in any situation is a spell, because you can use that spell to do anything, even become immune to fire and get loads of AC if that ever comes up.
DiscipleLover: But then you have to use spells to accomplish that.
Optimiser: Yes, but it doesn't happen often, and you wanted to get that spell anyway, because it's useful in a lot of situations, and you get an extra spell for being a sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: Yeah, but if you want to use this tactic, you'd need to use a lot of spells to do it.
Optimiser: Yes, but we've already established that using that tactic isn't actually better than these other tactics.
DiscipleLover: But I can use Disciples with these tactics to beat encounters.
Optimiser: Of course you can, because the Dragon Disciple is better than a lot of classes, it's just worse than the Sorcerer.
DiscipleLover: But being immune to my own fireballs makes everything easier.
Optimiser: Have you considered that you just have bad aim?
DiscipleLover: Whatever, name one combat where having an extra spell is useful.
Optimiser: Any of the five combats where fire resistance is worth having, for starters.
DiscipleLover: But then they can dispel your fire resistance and you ended up casting spells on it.
Optimiser: Well, yes, but I get extra spells, and still get all these other spells of every level to make it undispellable.
DiscipleLover: But the Disciple's not bad though.
Goto Start.
So, in a bid to end the samsara that is this thread, let's hammer this down.
Fact: Fire Resistance and Armour Class are useful in certain combats.
Fact: In those combats, the Sorcerer can cast spells that give them Fire Resistance and Armour Class or make Fire Resistance and Armour Class unnecessary. They are also immune to dispelling because sorcerer.
Fact: There are situations where Fire Resistance and Armour Class are not typically useful,
Fact: The Dragon Disciple cannot turn off their Fire Resistance and Armour Class to give them more spells in these situations.
Fact: There are more situations where Fire Resistance and Armour Class are not typically.
Proposal: While it is possible to engineer situations where you leverage the Disciple's Fire Resistance and Armour Class, even if it were equal, this strategy is not superior to other options both classes have available.
If this proposal is agreed upon (and you've already agreed previously), then the following statement can be considered to be true:
The Sorcerer can produce the bonuses given by the Dragon Disciple whenever it matters, at lower resource cost than one spell per spell level.
And if the above statement is true, then the following statement is not pejorative, but informative:
The only reason to play a Dragon Disciple is because you like the kit thematically or want to use tactics centred around their permanent fire resistance and armour class for enjoyment purposes.
Aka: Roleplay reasons.
I followed this thread for a long time but I didn't post anything until now because I don't have much time to post a wall of text. And I still don't have enough time.
But I played a lot of arcane casters, including Sorcerers and Dragon Disciple, and I can say for sure that the Dragon Disciple is on par with the Sorcerer in Baldur's Gate (and probably in Icewind Dale). I actually even prefer the Dragon Disciple.
-First of all because the additional spell of the Sorcerer doesn't really matter, if you play with a full party, a single class arcane caster will mostly play the role of a Breach / Ruby Ray of Reversal user. I concluded a trilogy no-reload recently with a Blackguard in the no-reload thread, my main arcane caster was Edwin.
Sure, Edwin is mighty with 8 max spells per level per day but I didn't need to cast a single Project Image of the whole game. Fights were over far too soon, you don't need to cast more than a few spells everytime you face an encounter.
Having 5 or 9 spells won't change much, you don't need a lot to be effective, and only you can decide when you want to rest to replenish your stock. And you could always use Project Image / Simulacrum / Spell Trap loops / Wish to get an infinite number of spells anyway.
-Then the Dragon Disciple bonuses, which are quite good and impossible to dispel, this have been covered already. It's true that an additional spell of each level could do mostly the same even if you probably won't learn Protection from Fire as a Sorcerer, and if you wait until Protection from the Elements to get something the Dragon Disciple has since quite a lot of time, you could have some troubles earlier in the game. Plus you can replicate the AC bonus with spells, but nothing prevent you to stack this bonus AC with other spells to get even more AC.
And contrary to what many are saying, AC is definitely not useless and you can for sure make it worthwhile in ToB. You just need to stack it.
"Shall we compare how many hits can you avoid every time with 1 more Stoneskin/Mirror Image and how many with some ridiculous AC bonus?"
Yes we could, and in some instances, the AC bonus could make you 500% more durable (going from a 30% hit probability to a 5% one (critical hit)).
But these two arguments are in my opinion more subjective than objective because it depends on how much you value AC, how much you value Fire Resistance, do you consider that a lot of enemies are doing fire based damage? Are these foes dangerous? And so forth.
But to my mind, the really great point of the Dragon Disciple, which makes me prefer them to a regular Sorcerer is the aura management.
You want to get the AC bonus? You can cast Blur+Protection from Evil, but you need to spend an aura for it.
You want to simulate the HP bonus to help prevent against Power Word : Stun? You can cast Spell Immunity, but you need to spend an aura for it.
You want the Fire Resistance? You can cast Protection from Fire, but you need to spend an aura for it.
You want these buffs to be impossible to dispel? You can cast Spell Immunity, but you need to spend an aura for it.
A Dragon Disciple will be able to participate more in the fights because he won't need to cast as many spells than its regular counterpart.
Oh, a Dragon's Breath is coming your way! Quick, drink a Potion of Fire Resistance! You will still take damage (not very important as long as you survive) but you just use your spellcasting for the round.
Some randoms guys are pelting you with arrows? They are breaking your Stoneskin? Oh, not a problem, you can simply cast another one (and you can, because as a Sorcerer you have one more spell!). You just lose your spellcasting for the round.
In both of these situations, which are quite frequent in my setup (every casters get HLAs), the Dragon Disciple will be able to focus more on Breaching, Dispeling and so forth. They have more auras available to do what they need. And this cannot be emulated by an additional spell.
Another very good aspect of the kit IMO is the underrated Breath Weapon. The damage don't look incredible, I agree. But there is no save and MR doesn't apply, which means that it's basically 80% of a Dragon's Breath considering that enemies will save against nearly everything soon enough.
The casting time is quick, you can notably use it with Improved Alacrity for additional firepower.
And, most importantly, your Project Images and Simulacrum can use it aswell. Which means you can fastly unleashed large salves of MR bypassing fire, which is quite handy for a single class arcane caster.
Of course my opinion is biased because I'm only playing No-Reload so I highly value defense over offense, plus with the SCS component which gives HLAs to every eligible casters, I'm very frequently (every encounters actually) getting blasted by Comet + Dragon's Breath, so the impossible to dispel and permanent Fire Resistance is golden.
Plus I really never manage to use all my spells in a fight, you simply have too many, even in BG1 in the MP No-Reload I'm playing as a Wild Mage, and I have so many spells, even in BG1, most fights are decided in about 3 rounds (Dispel or True Sight from Tresset, backstabs from Bengoshi or Greater Malison + Web/Chaos from my character).
TL;DR
I would rather have the permanent AC or the Fire Resistance to be able to focus on dispeling than having an additional spell slot I'm not going to use anyway.
Thank you, you covered most of the points I was thinking about to explain to Pantalion while he's wrong... and some others I didn't though about like auras, since I don't use that mod... and at least, SpaceInvader can't accuse you to only do theories, with no experience, given the playthrough you have completed.
Perhaps that with someone like you explaining them all those points, they will be less prone to get haughty and troll.
PS: there is another advantage to DD permanent fire resistance: you don't need to bother to learn fire resistance spells, so it frees two slots into your spellbook that you can use to learn something else.
Fine with me, tho.
Enjoy this awesome game
Just use Ring of Regen + Ring of Sorcery normally and switch Regen to Fire if you REALLY need to. It is useless and most definitely in ToB. Already explained. How many enemies cast that before I have enough HP, Staff of the Magi and... Does a potion of free movement work? No, I don't want to. There are plenty of potions of fire res, scrolls and the ring. I CAN choose, as a Sorcerer, to use it for Abjuration, Necromancy to avoid an ADHW or for something else. A DD has a spell slot less, so: no choice. Duh? I'm facing a foe with Dragon's Breath and I don't have 1 more Chain Contingecy/Time Stop/Improved Alacrity compared to a DD to cast? I mean... Really? Are we talking about BG:EE?
Because if so, For sure this +1/2 AC bonus is not gonna save my life.
As For BG2:EE, there are no archers I can't deal with before my Stoneskin fades off. OR you can simply use a Dragon's Breath HLA instead. A Dragon's Breath works the same. Aside dealing more damage, wider radius and potentially knocking back, of course. If that's how you deal with it... Then stop playing super easy runs and start to challenge yourself more
That aside, spell immunity does not protect your from any spell that attacks magical defenses, whether spell thrust or spellstrike. If someone uses spellstrike on you and then dispel magic, and many SCS high level mage do, then you will have other things to do in the next few rounds before you recast Fireshield, Protection from energy and SI: Abjuration.
Not to mention, these are spellpicks (on top of spellcasts) and you have a limited amount of them. You might have more spellcasts as a sorcerer, but you also have just as many spellpicks. Level 4 spells, for example. Let me list good level 4 spells that come to my mind:
Stoneskin
Fireshield: Red
Fireshield: Blue
Teleport field
Spider spawn
Secret word
Minor sequencer
Polymorph Self
Grand Malison
That's 9 good spells and only 5 picks (only 4 for most of the game). Knowing that I can choose Fireshield: Blue that does about the same as fireshield: red (but better because less enemies are immune to cold) because I have a 100% innate fire resistance makes the choice easier.
I could say the same about 8th level spells. There are more than 4 good 8th level spells, and you only get 4.
As for your last argument ("how many hits can an additionnal stoneskin/mirror image tank?") I'd say that, past some point, it is a question of time it tanks more than a question of amount of hits.
Casting an extra stoneskin/mirror image takes two rounds. Depending on the fight, these may not even last two rounds (even if they are not breached or anything). Even if they do, how much time did you gain (considering you lost 2 rounds to cast them)? Honestly I don't know but that's the real question one should ask. By the way you have no extra stoneskin considering you already have used your extra 4th level spell with Fireshield.
But it's not a problem anyway. If I realize that I can't avoid this Spell Strike, so be it: it will dispel my SI, and not my elemental resistance.
Elemental resistance can be only dispelled by a dispel/remove magic or breach, and all of them are blocked by SI:A in SCS. There are more than 5 good spells per level, yes. Do you NEED to know more than 5? No.
As regards your example, you don't need Teleport Field nor Secret Word or Minor Sequencer.
Not because they are bad, just because they are superfluous or have a better counterpart at higher levels. If casting this Stoneskin is a matter of life and death, I simply use a contingency.
More spells = more versatility.
A Dragon Disciple is also enough for the entire BG2:EE with SCS. What matters is your aura management, what will make you able to destroy Mages easily is having at least 2-3 characters able to cast Breach, Secret Word, RRR and so forth at the same time. Ring of Fire Control is +50% and not 100% Ring of Fire Resistance is only 40%. A lot actually if you play with SCS.
Staff of the Magi won't make you invisible with SCS, plus you earn it in a very difficult encounter (once again with SCS) where everyone use HLAs (SCS) and I'm playing No-Reload. I'm not going in there until chapter 6, which is the end of SoA.
You gulp a potion? You used an aura, it's exactly my point. You just used an aura.
You just used another aura.
I'm starting to think that you do not understand what an aura is. Yes actually, with the SCS component "every eligibles casters get HLAs in SoA" you're going to face Dragon's Breath, Comet and Summon Dark Planetar everywhere in Amn right from the start.
-Korgan's quest? A lich with HLAs.
-Edwin's quest? A lich with HLAs.
-Lavok? HLAs.
-Tolgerias? HLAs.
-Guarded Compound? HLAs.
-Shade Lich? HLAs.
-Elemental Lich? HLAs.
-Kangaxx? HLAs in both form.
And so forth.
Plus if you cast an additional Time Stop or Improved Alacrity (which means that you manage to cast 5 level 9 spells as a Dragon Disciple and you still did not win the fight) you used another aura. It's already very good in BG:EE. The more AC you have, the better it becomes. Put in another way, the value of the next point of AC increases the more AC you have (until you get hit only on a critical hit).
If you get hit 95% of the time (everytime except on a critical miss), then having 1 more AC will get you to a 90% hit probability, reducing damage by 5.3% on average. (Assuming of course that the additional AC will do something)
The next point will get you from 90% to 85% hit probability, reducing damage on average by 5.7%
85% to 80% = 5.9% damage reduction.
As you can see the value of AC increases slowly at first, which is why many people think it is useless. Because they go from -10 AC to -12 AC in ToB and feel no difference. But as I said before, you need to stack it.
going from 25% to 20% will reduce damage by 20%
20% to 15% by 25%
15% to 10% by 33%
10% to 5% by 50%
As you can see, the value of AC quickly ramp us the closer you get to being hit on a critical hit only which is why going from -10 to -12 in ToB is useless but going from -30 to -32 is a huge increase.
And because AC is mostly determined by your gear and spells (contrary to THAC0 which is mostly determined by your level), you can reach an impossible to hit AC very early in BG:EE which means that a +1/+2 bonus in the first few levels is already really good.
Finally in ToB, AC is still highly relevant, in my last playthrough I had both Charname and Dorn sitting at -36 AC against crushing (without a shield), The Ravager has only -17 THAC0 and is the only enemy who could hit me on something else than a critical hit, he is so badass he could hit me on 19-20 instead.
Having more AC on a caster is really good because it allows you to cast Mirror Image + Stoneskin less often which translates into more Breach / RRR etc. A component from SCS prevents you from having more than 1 Comet, Dragon's Breath, Improved Alacrity. The MP No-Reload is also with SCS, we are playing 3 characters in a 5 man party (less xp) and playing MP is vastly more difficult than playing single player because of the lack of coordination and the lags.
I'm actually playing SCS No-Reload while you are talking about the invisibility from the Staff of the Magi, getting attacked by casters without HLAs and so forth. I'm not sure I need to increase the difficulty of my run.
I still respectfully disagree.
So I found appropriate to keep the staff's original design.
Normal Ring of Fire Protection + Fire Shield, Ring + Potion, Ring + Scroll and you already reach 90% fire res, if you need total immunity just combine them or eventually get the Ring of Fire Control. Then there is Protection from Energy, imo a must-have for Sorc.
It is essentially a waste to trade 1 spell per level for this class fire resistance.
Enough discussion on my side, anyway. We've all exposed our points of view.
Enjoy your game
So we can say for example, "I needed to drink a potion of healing immediately, but my aura wasn't clean, so I died."
There are many actions that you might need quickly in an emergency, and waiting for the beginning of the next round can be fatal. I can't count the times I've been sitting at the party controls, thinking, "Come on, drink the potion...drink it! DRINK IT! What's taking you so long?"
In a mob of enemies, if you've already spent your aura action for the round ("aura not clean"), they all get all their attacks and spells for that round before you can take another action.
btw great post and all
EDIT: @BelgarathMTH ninja'd me