In my mind an aura is more like an self-centered AoE, like, for example, Fyrus Khal shield giving nearby mates 5% MR is what I'd call an aura. But it may make sense to refer to the "action per round" since one of the spell used to cleanse it is precisely Daer'Ragh Aura cleansing (available through EEKeeper)
The discussion is over for me, you keep recycling the same arguments again and again, and ignore in return every counter-arguments we tell you about:
- "Sorcerer can have a fire immunity too" => We answered yo: it cost auras, that cost spellpicks and it is dispellable, thus, it is not equivalant. Still, you keep saying that again and again and again.
- "Sorcerer have more spell charges => We asked you several times in which fight this does actualy truly matters, and no one ever answered. If you can't give us some exemples where it matters, when your argument is worth nothing, but still you keep using it again, and again, and again.
It's pointless to speak to people that ignore your counter-arguments...
The discussion is over for me, you keep recycling the same arguments again and again, and ignore in return every counter-arguments we tell you about:
- "Sorcerer can have a fire immunity too" => We answered yo: it cost auras, that cost spellpicks and it is dispellable, thus, it is not equivalant. Still, you keep saying that again and again and again.
- "Sorcerer have more spell charges => We asked you several times in which fight this does actualy truly matters, and no one ever answered. If you can't give us some exemples where it matters, when your argument is worth nothing, but still you keep using it again, and again, and again.
It's pointless to speak to people that ignore your counter-arguments...
1: Spell Immunity ignores auras. Cast a spell, you can instantly cast Spell Immunity. Also aura only matters if you don't pre-buff, which let's face it, you should be doing, or if things have gone badly wrong that your defensive buffs have fallen, in which case the first spell you should be casting is invisibility.
2: Dragon Disciples pick Protection from the Elements too, because it's 75% resistance to all elements.
3: Fire Resistance Potions aren't dispellable, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration makes you immune to dispel magic. Told you that second one around five times now.
4: Nobody ever answered? Well, for starters I did. Any fight where you need to gain Fire Immunity. Any fight where you want to cast one Improved Alacrity and six Dragon Breaths, any fight where you've already cast five Project Images that day. Secondly: We don't have to, we simply need to demonstrate that Sorcerers can get undispellable Fire Resistance whenever it's required for less spell slots than 1 of each level. Since we have done that, you would then need to provide an example where having less spell slots was actually helpful in a fight.
Considering I've covered three of these four things already, the aura thing only just came up and generally it's a 6 second aura once in a blue moon if you're surprised, and also mentioned that AC is actually bad for the sorcerer when they're using Fireshields, I'm not quite sure if your final sentence is autobiographical or not.
@Gotural - Asides from "Don't use tactics where they can use attack rolls against you, I've already mentioned on an earlier page that the difference from a 5% vs 30% miss rate is a trap. You need to take approximately 30 hits against you before the extra AC is overall superior to Mirror Image (5% of 30 = 1.5, 30% is 9, therefore 7.5 hits were evaded by stacking AC compared to 8 images). In either case, you probably shouldn't be in a situation where you're taking thirty attacks against your sorcerer, because I'd prefer the only rolls my enemies be allowed to be saving throws, and once you have boots of speed that plus improved invisibility is a very strong contender with fire resistance for "ignore all melee and fire damage ever", unless you were using Fire Shields to provide significant amounts of MR ignoring fire and cold damage.
Also worth mentioning is that before level 12 or so, the Disciple is only 50% FR, meaning the difference between the two is essentially a potion when and if it matters (or just wearing the 40% ring with a Fireshield you quite probably want anyway). Even then Mirror Image does stop AOEs, so it's not like even a naked sorcerer is particularly vulnerable.
Concerning your use of mods, it's a valid consideration, but do note I've already said that class balance depends on the environment as much as anything else. You could mod every enemy to deal fire damage and the Disciple would have a major advantage over the sorcerer, but I would suggest the disciple being better by changing the game around them isn't necessarily the best way of judging its overall value in the core BG setting, if you understand where I'm coming from there.
I still would argue that there's no reason to be letting enemy mages get off Dragon Breaths in the first place (and given the number of high level mages you run into through SoA plus fire based encounters and so on, it's still a fairly low cost measured in GP to cover the lot of them), but I do accept, as bob_veng rightly pointed out, that it's a good belt-and-braces convenience feature, especially in a no-reload, since you never need to worry about forgetting a fire resistance buff.
While I'm happy for you to disagree, I don't believe you necessarily do disagree that the sorcerer is not a stronger character (if you are, then you're suggesting that power that you do not need does not exist, and I trust that we both understand that Edwin is a better spellcaster than Haerdalis even if you only use him to cast Breach).
Rather (and if I'm wrong, I apologise), I get the impression that you are saying that the sorcerer being more powerful doesn't matter because the Dragon Disciple is more than powerful enough to handle itself, and that the disciple has valid reasons for someone using it (I believe I termed it something like "desire to use certain strategies").
If I'm correct and that's your position, I actually agree with you, there isn't a need for the full sorcerer, there's not even a need for the Disciple - the game doesn't require that much power. It doesn't matter that the sorcerer can nova for 340D8 damage per Projected Image versus 209D8 damage, because most things died after the first five spells anyway. All I'm saying is that this difference exists, that you are giving up overall power to get the features you want from the Disciple.
I should have perhaps worded my post differently to emphasise that it's possible to desire features that are convenient, or that you enjoy, but carry a sacrifice that overall weakens your character, like deciding to be a Fighter/Mage instead of a Mage.
I've already pm'd Gutural to show this, since I didn't want to continue the discussion here, but here is an example of why low AC is something that you may or may NOT want to have:
If you plan to play a vanilla, normal, unmodded game: there is not much of a difference between DD and Sorcerer. As soon as you increase the difficulty of you game with mods, solo, whatever, you should realize that one more spell per level is hands down better than a fire resistance some hp and AC. You are free to believe what you want as to play how you see fit, of course.
1: Spell Immunity ignores auras. Cast a spell, you can instantly cast Spell Immunity. Also aura only matters if you don't pre-buff, which let's face it, you should be doing, or if things have gone badly wrong that your defensive buffs have fallen, in which case the first spell you should be casting is invisibility.
2: Dragon Disciples pick Protection from the Elements too, because it's 75% resistance to all elements.
3: Fire Resistance Potions aren't dispellable, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration makes you immune to dispel magic. Told you that second one around five times now.
4: Nobody ever answered? Well, for starters I did. Any fight where you need to gain Fire Immunity. Any fight where you want to cast one Improved Alacrity and six Dragon Breaths, any fight where you've already cast five Project Images that day. Secondly: We don't have to, we simply need to demonstrate that Sorcerers can get undispellable Fire Resistance whenever it's required for less spell slots than 1 of each level. Since we have done that, you would then need to provide an example where having less spell slots was actually helpful in a fight.
Just another answer where you tell the same thing that before and ignore what we have answered to that... I guess this discussion is truly over.
For solo noreload difficulty max plus many mods I am positive the extra spells of the sorceress matter and it would exceed the dragon disciple.
For party play I am not convinced at all. I still do not see why it needs to be shown when the dragon disciple bonuses kick in. It makes more sense to show that for a significant portion of fights you will actually unload an entire sorceress spell book and be grateful of the spell amount. Because that never happens when I play, neither at low nor mid nor high levels of the game. Ergo, I do not need the spells. Therefore, any marginal bonus the dragon disciple supplies (and many are not applicable in every fight) is better than vanilla. A sorceress cannot multitask until alacrity and when she does I never succeed in unloading the entire spellbook or find myself missing a spell at a level. There are enough other levels to choose from. Even then party members should also be doing something useful to compensate any gap the sorceress/disciple leaves behind. I will have potentially a secondary arcane doing her thing, early/mid game usage of wand, item and gear abilities, late game thieves with uai casting debuff from scroll/wand, divine casters with great spells and buffs/debuffs, fighters killing stuff in 1 round just after you debuffed, etcetera.
But that is my experience playing the game. Your mileage may vary which is totally fine. If you need those extra spells then that is the only source of answer to the question whether sorceress is better than a dragon disciple. However, if those spells are required to fill a power gap that the dragon disciple fills (ac, health, resist), then you actually have something to debate about the dragon disciple abilities versus sorceress extra spells.
1: Spell Immunity ignores auras. Cast a spell, you can instantly cast Spell Immunity. Also aura only matters if you don't pre-buff, which let's face it, you should be doing, or if things have gone badly wrong that your defensive buffs have fallen, in which case the first spell you should be casting is invisibility.
2: Dragon Disciples pick Protection from the Elements too, because it's 75% resistance to all elements.
3: Fire Resistance Potions aren't dispellable, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration makes you immune to dispel magic. Told you that second one around five times now.
4: Nobody ever answered? Well, for starters I did. Any fight where you need to gain Fire Immunity. Any fight where you want to cast one Improved Alacrity and six Dragon Breaths, any fight where you've already cast five Project Images that day. Secondly: We don't have to, we simply need to demonstrate that Sorcerers can get undispellable Fire Resistance whenever it's required for less spell slots than 1 of each level. Since we have done that, you would then need to provide an example where having less spell slots was actually helpful in a fight.
Just another answer where you tell the same thing that before and ignore what we have answered to that... I guess this discussion is truly over.
It was over the moment a person with little to no experience on the matter, asked for answers taking for true only what confirmed his own opinion.
If this continues to be a discussion about whether or not the discussion is being discussed properly, it will quickly become a discussion that is closed.
For solo noreload difficulty max plus many mods I am positive the extra spells of the sorceress matter and it would exceed the dragon disciple.
For party play I am not convinced at all. I still do not see why it needs to be shown when the dragon disciple bonuses kick in. It makes more sense to show that for a significant portion of fights you will actually unload an entire sorceress spell book and be grateful of the spell amount. Because that never happens when I play, neither at low nor mid nor high levels of the game. Ergo, I do not need the spells. Therefore, any marginal bonus the dragon disciple supplies (and many are not applicable in every fight) is better than vanilla. A sorceress cannot multitask until alacrity and when she does I never succeed in unloading the entire spellbook or find myself missing a spell at a level. There are enough other levels to choose from.
I mostly agree with this assessment. Note that a mage in a party can also use an item and/or attack with a ranged weapon in a round they cast a spell.
My problem is that I get so bored letting my NPCs have most of the fun I don't get too far in my playthrough before I come up with a new party and bring along a mage instead.
If this continues to be a discussion about whether or not the discussion is being discussed properly, it will quickly become a discussion that is closed.
Stay on topic, folks.
It is fated to be closed, by now.
Let me sum up the 2 last pages of debate:
1- Someone tells that every bonus of the DD can be simulated by only using a fraction of the extra spell/level the Sorcerer side has, and thus, a Sorcerer will always have "more" than a DD in every condition. And that the auras and spellpicks are not relevant enough to matter because the fights where it is the optimal way to kill everyone are very few
2- Someone tells that every bonus of the Sorcerer doesn't matter in many playthrough because the spellbook of the DD will never get depleted, so he doesn't need extra spells, and that his bonus will be thus better, even if it was the simple fact that you don't have to bother to keep them active or protect them against dispells yourself and marginal benefits like auras, spellpicks and more AC.
The two pages have been an endless cycle of 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, with no progress, except for the trollings and ad hominem of SpaceInvader that become more varied each post he does.
Since the debate doesn't progress, but bad behavior progress, soon or later, it will reach and explosion point where the moderator will have to close it. That is, unless everyone get sick of it and stop to post before, naturaly
Comments
But it may make sense to refer to the "action per round" since one of the spell used to cleanse it is precisely Daer'Ragh Aura cleansing (available through EEKeeper)
- "Sorcerer can have a fire immunity too" => We answered yo: it cost auras, that cost spellpicks and it is dispellable, thus, it is not equivalant. Still, you keep saying that again and again and again.
- "Sorcerer have more spell charges => We asked you several times in which fight this does actualy truly matters, and no one ever answered. If you can't give us some exemples where it matters, when your argument is worth nothing, but still you keep using it again, and again, and again.
It's pointless to speak to people that ignore your counter-arguments...
2: Dragon Disciples pick Protection from the Elements too, because it's 75% resistance to all elements.
3: Fire Resistance Potions aren't dispellable, and Spell Immunity: Abjuration makes you immune to dispel magic. Told you that second one around five times now.
4: Nobody ever answered? Well, for starters I did. Any fight where you need to gain Fire Immunity. Any fight where you want to cast one Improved Alacrity and six Dragon Breaths, any fight where you've already cast five Project Images that day. Secondly: We don't have to, we simply need to demonstrate that Sorcerers can get undispellable Fire Resistance whenever it's required for less spell slots than 1 of each level. Since we have done that, you would then need to provide an example where having less spell slots was actually helpful in a fight.
Considering I've covered three of these four things already, the aura thing only just came up and generally it's a 6 second aura once in a blue moon if you're surprised, and also mentioned that AC is actually bad for the sorcerer when they're using Fireshields, I'm not quite sure if your final sentence is autobiographical or not.
@Gotural - Asides from "Don't use tactics where they can use attack rolls against you, I've already mentioned on an earlier page that the difference from a 5% vs 30% miss rate is a trap. You need to take approximately 30 hits against you before the extra AC is overall superior to Mirror Image (5% of 30 = 1.5, 30% is 9, therefore 7.5 hits were evaded by stacking AC compared to 8 images). In either case, you probably shouldn't be in a situation where you're taking thirty attacks against your sorcerer, because I'd prefer the only rolls my enemies be allowed to be saving throws, and once you have boots of speed that plus improved invisibility is a very strong contender with fire resistance for "ignore all melee and fire damage ever", unless you were using Fire Shields to provide significant amounts of MR ignoring fire and cold damage.
Also worth mentioning is that before level 12 or so, the Disciple is only 50% FR, meaning the difference between the two is essentially a potion when and if it matters (or just wearing the 40% ring with a Fireshield you quite probably want anyway). Even then Mirror Image does stop AOEs, so it's not like even a naked sorcerer is particularly vulnerable.
Concerning your use of mods, it's a valid consideration, but do note I've already said that class balance depends on the environment as much as anything else. You could mod every enemy to deal fire damage and the Disciple would have a major advantage over the sorcerer, but I would suggest the disciple being better by changing the game around them isn't necessarily the best way of judging its overall value in the core BG setting, if you understand where I'm coming from there.
I still would argue that there's no reason to be letting enemy mages get off Dragon Breaths in the first place (and given the number of high level mages you run into through SoA plus fire based encounters and so on, it's still a fairly low cost measured in GP to cover the lot of them), but I do accept, as bob_veng rightly pointed out, that it's a good belt-and-braces convenience feature, especially in a no-reload, since you never need to worry about forgetting a fire resistance buff.
While I'm happy for you to disagree, I don't believe you necessarily do disagree that the sorcerer is not a stronger character (if you are, then you're suggesting that power that you do not need does not exist, and I trust that we both understand that Edwin is a better spellcaster than Haerdalis even if you only use him to cast Breach).
Rather (and if I'm wrong, I apologise), I get the impression that you are saying that the sorcerer being more powerful doesn't matter because the Dragon Disciple is more than powerful enough to handle itself, and that the disciple has valid reasons for someone using it (I believe I termed it something like "desire to use certain strategies").
If I'm correct and that's your position, I actually agree with you, there isn't a need for the full sorcerer, there's not even a need for the Disciple - the game doesn't require that much power. It doesn't matter that the sorcerer can nova for 340D8 damage per Projected Image versus 209D8 damage, because most things died after the first five spells anyway. All I'm saying is that this difference exists, that you are giving up overall power to get the features you want from the Disciple.
I should have perhaps worded my post differently to emphasise that it's possible to desire features that are convenient, or that you enjoy, but carry a sacrifice that overall weakens your character, like deciding to be a Fighter/Mage instead of a Mage.
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/13086/solo-sorcerer-vs-karoug-greater-wolfwere-co-on-insane/p1
If you plan to play a vanilla, normal, unmodded game: there is not much of a difference between DD and Sorcerer.
As soon as you increase the difficulty of you game with mods, solo, whatever, you should realize that one more spell per level is hands down better than a fire resistance some hp and AC.
You are free to believe what you want as to play how you see fit, of course.
Now I'm seriously out of this.
For party play I am not convinced at all. I still do not see why it needs to be shown when the dragon disciple bonuses kick in. It makes more sense to show that for a significant portion of fights you will actually unload an entire sorceress spell book and be grateful of the spell amount. Because that never happens when I play, neither at low nor mid nor high levels of the game. Ergo, I do not need the spells. Therefore, any marginal bonus the dragon disciple supplies (and many are not applicable in every fight) is better than vanilla.
A sorceress cannot multitask until alacrity and when she does I never succeed in unloading the entire spellbook or find myself missing a spell at a level. There are enough other levels to choose from.
Even then party members should also be doing something useful to compensate any gap the sorceress/disciple leaves behind. I will have potentially a secondary arcane doing her thing, early/mid game usage of wand, item and gear abilities, late game thieves with uai casting debuff from scroll/wand, divine casters with great spells and buffs/debuffs, fighters killing stuff in 1 round just after you debuffed, etcetera.
But that is my experience playing the game. Your mileage may vary which is totally fine. If you need those extra spells then that is the only source of answer to the question whether sorceress is better than a dragon disciple. However, if those spells are required to fill a power gap that the dragon disciple fills (ac, health, resist), then you actually have something to debate about the dragon disciple abilities versus sorceress extra spells.
Stay on topic, folks.
My problem is that I get so bored letting my NPCs have most of the fun I don't get too far in my playthrough before I come up with a new party and bring along a mage instead.
Let me sum up the 2 last pages of debate:
1- Someone tells that every bonus of the DD can be simulated by only using a fraction of the extra spell/level the Sorcerer side has, and thus, a Sorcerer will always have "more" than a DD in every condition. And that the auras and spellpicks are not relevant enough to matter because the fights where it is the optimal way to kill everyone are very few
2- Someone tells that every bonus of the Sorcerer doesn't matter in many playthrough because the spellbook of the DD will never get depleted, so he doesn't need extra spells, and that his bonus will be thus better, even if it was the simple fact that you don't have to bother to keep them active or protect them against dispells yourself and marginal benefits like auras, spellpicks and more AC.
The two pages have been an endless cycle of 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, 1, 2, with no progress, except for the trollings and ad hominem of SpaceInvader that become more varied each post he does.
Since the debate doesn't progress, but bad behavior progress, soon or later, it will reach and explosion point where the moderator will have to close it.
That is, unless everyone get sick of it and stop to post before, naturaly