Musings on NPC continuity
Kilivitz
Member Posts: 1,459
I've been thinking about how the BG games handle continuity between NPCs and about how the advent of SoD is the ideal opportunity to shake things around. I hope some of you will join me in my musings.
Continuity in these games can be seen as two aspects: the alive/dead status of NPCs and the statistics of NPCs who have once joined your group. So first, let's look at the different ways the games handle that:
RECRUITING AN NPC
In BG1, an NPC's level (and every stat that relies on that, such as HPs, weapon proficiencies, spells, thief skill points, etc.) upon joining is determined according to the average level of your party. Once the game determines which level they should be, it spawns one of 3 or 4 possible incarnations (at either Level 1, 2, 4 or 6). These are not dynamically generated - they're static creature files.
In SoA, things work the same way, except that in BG2:EE the level of an NPC is now determined solely by the level of the protagonist. In ToB, things get a bit different and what you get is an NPC's highest-level incarnation from SoA with a bunch of XP points stacked on top of it.
IN-GAME NPC CONTINUITY
Once a NPC has joined you, they're stuck on that "incarnation" so there are no continuity issues. If they are kicked out of the party and recruited back later, their statistics and inventory will be untouched. If they're killed and then kicked out of the party, they're dead forever. If they're killed while not in the party, they're also dead forever. And in SoA, certain circumstances may lead them to leave the party and be gone forever, carrying their inventory with them.
Of course, this continuity behavior is contained to each game. Let's see how the different transitions handle things:
BG1-BG2 NPC CONTINUITY
I think it's safe to say that continuity between BG1 and BG2 is non-existent. Nothing you do in BG1 regarding NPCs will affect your BG2 game in any way. Who was alive or dead, who was in your party and what their current stats and skills were by the end of BG1, all that gets thrown out the window.
Bioware's not only established a certain canon of what companions you've seen and traveled with, but also revised their abilities. Returning NPCs are essentially the same, with a few tweaks here and there, making them more suited to face the challenges of SoA and ToB.
Transition between SoA and ToB is a bit smoother. NPCs currently in your party transition with you and are untouched. Dead NPCs stay dead and permanently unavailable. NPCs who were kicked out of the party will be "refreshed" and treated by the game as if you've never met them (although in terms of story, they will treat you as if you know each other even if you've never met. Confusing, I know).
Until now, that was probably for the best. BG1 and BG2 used to be way more different from each other than they are now. BG2 introduced kits, tons of new spells and reworked the thief skill and weapon proficiency systems, making it impossible to have seamless continuity.
It was also a different time. Tight continuity between a game and its sequels wasn't the norm and BG's version of the Infinity Engine wasn't exactly built to hold the amount of variables needed to be set by a game in order to ensure perfect story/inventory continuity. So you went along with it and that was that.
ENTER THE ENHANCED EDITIONS AND SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR
In the EEs, both games are built upon the same revamped version of the Infinity Engine, which was built upon BG2's more modern engine. This has changed BG1 dramatically, making it and BG2 much more consistent with each other than their original counterparts. Unfortunately, for whatever reasons, this consistency still does not extend to NPCs.
While one may argue that this is still for the best, I'm of the opinion that as the Baldur's Gate series feel more and more like just one big continuous game, addressing continuity issues can and should be viewed as part of the process of further improving the games and bringing them closer to the expectations of new players, as it seems to be one of the main design goals of SoD.
Of course, it's a fact that SoD's not going to alter any story aspects of BG2 but rather explain them. Returning NPCs will be where they've always been, but now you're going to get an explanation of how exactly they ended up there.
So I'm not advocating for changes in that regard. On the contrary, I very much appreciate Beamdog's respect of Bioware's team decisions in that regard. I do believe, however, that there's still a lot of room for improvement, at least when it comes to NPCs and their statistics.
So here's my question to the community: what would you like to see in that regard? Would you like BG2 NPCs to remember their stats, weapon proficiency points, spells known, etc. from BG1/SoD? Do you think that NPCs who die in BG1 should stay dead in later stages of the campaign?
And here's my question to the devs: can we expect SoD to bring any changes to the way the games handle NPC continuity?
FINAL NOTE: EVEN MORE QUESTIONS FOR THE DEVS
We know by now that one of SoD's story goals is to make the beginning of BG2 consistent with any party combination a player might have had by the end of BG1. This means we'll get to see charname being reunited with Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir while parting ways with any other companions.
This is great. But as you know, among those NPCs, we have two pairs. What happens if a player forcefully breaks one or more of these pairs before or during SoD? More specifically, how does the expansion account for one of them being dead? Do we an opportunity to reunite them? And what if one or more of them dies during the expansion? Is there going to be any special dialogue addressing those potential story issues?
Continuity in these games can be seen as two aspects: the alive/dead status of NPCs and the statistics of NPCs who have once joined your group. So first, let's look at the different ways the games handle that:
RECRUITING AN NPC
In BG1, an NPC's level (and every stat that relies on that, such as HPs, weapon proficiencies, spells, thief skill points, etc.) upon joining is determined according to the average level of your party. Once the game determines which level they should be, it spawns one of 3 or 4 possible incarnations (at either Level 1, 2, 4 or 6). These are not dynamically generated - they're static creature files.
In SoA, things work the same way, except that in BG2:EE the level of an NPC is now determined solely by the level of the protagonist. In ToB, things get a bit different and what you get is an NPC's highest-level incarnation from SoA with a bunch of XP points stacked on top of it.
IN-GAME NPC CONTINUITY
Once a NPC has joined you, they're stuck on that "incarnation" so there are no continuity issues. If they are kicked out of the party and recruited back later, their statistics and inventory will be untouched. If they're killed and then kicked out of the party, they're dead forever. If they're killed while not in the party, they're also dead forever. And in SoA, certain circumstances may lead them to leave the party and be gone forever, carrying their inventory with them.
Of course, this continuity behavior is contained to each game. Let's see how the different transitions handle things:
BG1-BG2 NPC CONTINUITY
I think it's safe to say that continuity between BG1 and BG2 is non-existent. Nothing you do in BG1 regarding NPCs will affect your BG2 game in any way. Who was alive or dead, who was in your party and what their current stats and skills were by the end of BG1, all that gets thrown out the window.
Bioware's not only established a certain canon of what companions you've seen and traveled with, but also revised their abilities. Returning NPCs are essentially the same, with a few tweaks here and there, making them more suited to face the challenges of SoA and ToB.
Transition between SoA and ToB is a bit smoother. NPCs currently in your party transition with you and are untouched. Dead NPCs stay dead and permanently unavailable. NPCs who were kicked out of the party will be "refreshed" and treated by the game as if you've never met them (although in terms of story, they will treat you as if you know each other even if you've never met. Confusing, I know).
Until now, that was probably for the best. BG1 and BG2 used to be way more different from each other than they are now. BG2 introduced kits, tons of new spells and reworked the thief skill and weapon proficiency systems, making it impossible to have seamless continuity.
It was also a different time. Tight continuity between a game and its sequels wasn't the norm and BG's version of the Infinity Engine wasn't exactly built to hold the amount of variables needed to be set by a game in order to ensure perfect story/inventory continuity. So you went along with it and that was that.
ENTER THE ENHANCED EDITIONS AND SIEGE OF DRAGONSPEAR
In the EEs, both games are built upon the same revamped version of the Infinity Engine, which was built upon BG2's more modern engine. This has changed BG1 dramatically, making it and BG2 much more consistent with each other than their original counterparts. Unfortunately, for whatever reasons, this consistency still does not extend to NPCs.
While one may argue that this is still for the best, I'm of the opinion that as the Baldur's Gate series feel more and more like just one big continuous game, addressing continuity issues can and should be viewed as part of the process of further improving the games and bringing them closer to the expectations of new players, as it seems to be one of the main design goals of SoD.
Of course, it's a fact that SoD's not going to alter any story aspects of BG2 but rather explain them. Returning NPCs will be where they've always been, but now you're going to get an explanation of how exactly they ended up there.
So I'm not advocating for changes in that regard. On the contrary, I very much appreciate Beamdog's respect of Bioware's team decisions in that regard. I do believe, however, that there's still a lot of room for improvement, at least when it comes to NPCs and their statistics.
So here's my question to the community: what would you like to see in that regard? Would you like BG2 NPCs to remember their stats, weapon proficiency points, spells known, etc. from BG1/SoD? Do you think that NPCs who die in BG1 should stay dead in later stages of the campaign?
And here's my question to the devs: can we expect SoD to bring any changes to the way the games handle NPC continuity?
FINAL NOTE: EVEN MORE QUESTIONS FOR THE DEVS
We know by now that one of SoD's story goals is to make the beginning of BG2 consistent with any party combination a player might have had by the end of BG1. This means we'll get to see charname being reunited with Imoen, Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc and Dynaheir while parting ways with any other companions.
This is great. But as you know, among those NPCs, we have two pairs. What happens if a player forcefully breaks one or more of these pairs before or during SoD? More specifically, how does the expansion account for one of them being dead? Do we an opportunity to reunite them? And what if one or more of them dies during the expansion? Is there going to be any special dialogue addressing those potential story issues?
2
Comments
http://www.spellholdstudios.net/ie/bgt
http://gibberlings3.net/forums/index.php?showforum=195
https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/44476/tool-big-world-setup-bws-mod-manager-for-baldurs-gate-enhanced-edition-trilogy-for-windows
I myself spend the first half-hour of BG2 to set the NPCs as they're supposed to be. I didn't give up all those tomes to Jaheira or Viconia so she just pops up with a non enhanced Wisdom, for example.
Two things that really disappointed me in the Enhanced Edition was the unfinished business that have being kept unfinished (most of all the "mysterious vial" plot) and the non-continuity of the NPCs.
Personally speaking, when I play bg1 I make sure to only lose the party members that aren't going to show up in bg2. And then I EE keeper the characters to reflect the choices I made in bg1.
And I look at SoD - a completely new storyline in the base Baldur's Gate adventure, as at an option to further unite two games into one big story. The fact that SoD will answer why Imoen got her second class tells me about it. We'll see what happens during the year between BG1 and BG2, there will be nothing unknown left.
Yes, I know about BGT and now EET mods but I tend to think that the import system should be the core of the unmodded game, of new EEs.
So, to me, after SoD, the import between BGEE-SoD-BG2EE should become as smooth as possible. And of course, it means that not only main character should be importable into BG2, but also those BG1/SoD NPCs who can be met in BG2EE. Just like we can import NPCs "as they are" from BGEE to SoD, or from BG2 to ToB.
The fact that there will be no unknown time between BG1 and BG2 left should make, to me, the import process between BGEE+SoD and BG2EE similar to what we experience between SoA and ToB.
I once have made a feature request for BGEE NPCs' proficiencies and ability scores being imported to BG2EE, taking into account SoD and a patch for BG2EE here
There's an answer by Dee there that the technical aspects of this would make it an all-or-nothing proposition; either you import the characters as-is, with ability scores and proficiencies carried over, or you don't import them at all.
And although vanilla BG2 improve several stats of BG1 NPCs (Minsc gets +1 to both DEX and CON, Jaheira gets +3 to DEX, Viconia gets +3 to WIS, Edwin gets +1 to STR and WIS), with the release of SoD, to me, the import system should work so that if you continue to play BG2EE with NPCs you had at the end of SoD, these NPCs should have exactly those stats they had in SoD, and exatly those proficiencies and skills/spells you chose for them in BGEE+SoD.
So if your Minsc with whom you went through BGEE+SoD had 15 DEX and 15 CON but in the same time was specialized in hammers, Minsc you meet at the start of BG2EE should have the same 15 DEX and 15 CON and 2 pips in hammers.
If you gave Dorn a DEX tome and 2 pips in longbows in BGEE+SoD, you should meet him with 17, not 16, DEX and 2 pips in longbows in BG2EE, even if it would mean that Jaheira, whom you too had in your BGEE+SoD party, will have only 14, and not 17, DEX in BG2EE.
I don't like and never play BG with Jaheira, Khalid, Minsc, Imoen or Dynaheir. TBH, if I saw that lot together somewhere, I'd run in the opposite direction.
Irenicus would have never got his hands on me if they were present.
So RP continuity for me, requires a gap. The more "continuity" is pushed for the core party, the harder it is to RP reasons as to why on earth would I end up near them.
Unless that is addressed, and recognition is given to the fact that Charname has never traveled with that group other than rescueing Dynaheir, telling Imoen to go home, and saying HI at some point to J and K simply because of the letter.
I know the Irenicus dungeon is unpopular, but for me the reason is because who I'm stuck with. Torture and death, bring it on, just spare me Jaheira and Imoen.
They won't be in your party at the end of SoD, for the simple reason that no one is in your party at the end of SoD. They will attempt to prevent a Bhaalspawn falling into enemy hands though.
It's precisely the dishonesty of J and K and Dynaheir that stops me ever allowing them in my party.
Especially Dynaheir.
You can overlook that (the producers of the game could never have predicted individual players reactions to the NPC), but it gets harder if there is too much continuity.
@UnderstandMouseMagic Having stats carry over if theyre in your import party wont affect you if you avoid them. You can still have your gap by avoiding them in BG1 and SoD and pick them up in Irenicus dungeon.
@Fardragon Not necessarily a) that was an old build and they made changes to it according to feedback they got from avellone and b) there may be a final save prior to the goodbyes and that ending cutscene where you're captured that's used for import purposes. This is a pretty common practice.
I really don't see a distinction between "party" and "non-party" NPCs - I have had most of them in my party at some point.
In an ideal world everything would import, but just because you can't do everything doesn't mean you shouldn't do anything. Game import from SoD should bring over NPC stats, and character import just bring over your main character. That way everyone's choice is respected.
They may actually still be in the party system-wise in SoD at the end for the final save. Similar to when you can be tricked into being alone with the vampire in Throne of Bhaal.
@Dee It would be great to know if this is something that's being considered with SoD. All or nothing would easily work. Import character file = nothing, Import game = everything. More options for everyone is win-win.
But you are right that they may be contractually prohibited from doing certain things that would improve continuity. And that is indeed where I'd love to see modders step in, because they have no such restrictions.