What about the many other examples that I and others have given that you're not addressing that this new behavior would allow? You would like to "throw the baby out with the bathwater" because of your dislike of Drizzt?...
@Dee What happens if you switch from the ranged attack ability of a throwing axe to the melee attack ability? Can you, for instance, dual-wield a throwing axe as a melee weapon with an off-hand long sword?
I'm interrested in this as well, especially for possibly dual-weilding sometihng like the boomerang dagger + another weapon or boomerang + firetooth, both in melee (= 4 APR?). I've always felt we've missed a +APR dagger for melee (edit: which can be dual-wielded) though I guess this is not intended behavior of this change :P
So, the only swap left out is Sword & Shield to Two-Weapons and vice versa. Not sure it'd be of use to most though.
Correct. What you describe would involve adding a new weapon slot to the Inventory screen and to creature files, and that would...well, it would beak everything.
Weapon styles are poorly implemented. They are illogical and unrealistic, and they set dual-wielding uber alles in order to please the powergaming munchkins-running-the-asylum-in-the-absence-of-a-proper-DM Drizzt fanboys even though 1) PnP didn't position it that way, and 2) dual-wielding melee weapons is nowhere near that effective in real life.
This change, while attentive to fan demands and good for avoiding carpal tunnel syndrome, has the effect of marginalizing the other 3 weapon styles even more than they already were... which is saying a lot. It accentuates a stark example of bad game design, instead of "enhancing" it. Honestly, why have all 4 weapon styles? Why not just set base APR to 2 for everyone, it's much simpler and the same people who like this would gush over it.
Well, to be fair to the Infinity Engine games, they actually put harsher penalties on TWF than PnP.
PnP's base penalty to TWF is -2/-4, which is modified by the characters Dex Reaction Modifier. So, a warrior or thief with a 17+ Dex has a base TWF penalty of 0/-2 (i.e., no main-hand penalty) without spending a single proficiency on TWF. Spending a weapon proficiency on TWF reduces the base penalty (before Dex adjustment) to 0/-2. Spending another on Ambidexterity reduces that further to 0/0. Spending a second weapon proficiency on TWF removes the restriction that the off-hand weapon must be size S. So, for three weapon proficiencies (two if the PC has 17+ Dex), a character in PnP can dual-wield two M sized weapons with no main-hand or off-hand penalties.
In the IE games, the base penalty is -4/-8 and there is no Dex adjustment (caveat: the IE does not enforce the off-hand weapon size rule). After three spending three proficiency slots, the penalty drops to 0/-2.
I don't disagree that TWF is the most powerful weapon style, but its implementation in IE games is actually harsher than PnP (in 2E, at least).
@AstroBryGuy the question of flexibility is as important or more important than the question of good game design. In PnP you can adapt the rules however you like to prevent it devolving into a terrible DPS-fest. In many respects, you can do something similar in these games. So why are weapons styles sacrosanct? Beamdog has made good progress in liberalizing some bits of the game that used to be inflexible, but with weapon styles, as I said, they seem to be giving use half-measures.
My point was that TWF was actually implemented less-powerfully than 2E PnP. In 2E PnP, rangers have NO TWF penalties at all, and any fighter or thief with 17+ Dex is a fool *not* to dual-wield since there is no main-hand penalty, even without any proficiencies spent on TWF. So, I didn't get the "PnP didn't position [TWF] that way" part of your post. Every high-Dex character I remember in my 2E PnP days used TWF, it didn't make any sense NOT to by PnP rules.
Weapon styles are just as flexible as weapon proficiencies (i.e., specialization, mastery, etc..) in IE+ games. There are certain enabled effects that you can tweak. Weapon proficiencies allow tweaks to THAC0, damage, speed, APR. Styles allow tweaks to THAC0, damage, AC, missile AC, speed, and crit range. Neither is infinitely flexible, but a computer RPG will never be as flexible as PnP.
If you think TWF is un-balanced, then slap the 3E to hit penalties of -6/-10 for 0 pips, progressing to max of -2/-2, so there is always a "to hit" penalty for TWF. You can add an off-hand damage penalty to simulate 3E's 1/2 STR bonus for off-hand attacks.
I am critical of the unbalanced and unrealistic way weapon styles have been implemented in these games, and that they are resistant to improvement via mods.
"Urealistic"?... Have any complaints about "unrealistic" magic, dwarves, elves, orcs, goblins, dragons, demons, undead, giants, gnolls, et cetera, et cetera...
Was the way weapon styles were implemented in these games previously more or less unbalanced and unrealistic vs the way they are going to be utilized in SoD? Is the way the weapon switching is going to be utilized in SoD going to be more or less useful, flexible,et cetera vs the previous EE way?
We're not here 'pass judgement' whether or not weapon style bonuses should be changed; @subtledoctor 's request is that it at least become possible to do so via mods. It's a reasonable question and I really don't see why it's drawing this much debate and vitriol.
Comments
PnP's base penalty to TWF is -2/-4, which is modified by the characters Dex Reaction Modifier. So, a warrior or thief with a 17+ Dex has a base TWF penalty of 0/-2 (i.e., no main-hand penalty) without spending a single proficiency on TWF. Spending a weapon proficiency on TWF reduces the base penalty (before Dex adjustment) to 0/-2. Spending another on Ambidexterity reduces that further to 0/0. Spending a second weapon proficiency on TWF removes the restriction that the off-hand weapon must be size S. So, for three weapon proficiencies (two if the PC has 17+ Dex), a character in PnP can dual-wield two M sized weapons with no main-hand or off-hand penalties.
In the IE games, the base penalty is -4/-8 and there is no Dex adjustment (caveat: the IE does not enforce the off-hand weapon size rule). After three spending three proficiency slots, the penalty drops to 0/-2.
I don't disagree that TWF is the most powerful weapon style, but its implementation in IE games is actually harsher than PnP (in 2E, at least).
Weapon styles are just as flexible as weapon proficiencies (i.e., specialization, mastery, etc..) in IE+ games. There are certain enabled effects that you can tweak. Weapon proficiencies allow tweaks to THAC0, damage, speed, APR. Styles allow tweaks to THAC0, damage, AC, missile AC, speed, and crit range. Neither is infinitely flexible, but a computer RPG will never be as flexible as PnP.
If you think TWF is un-balanced, then slap the 3E to hit penalties of -6/-10 for 0 pips, progressing to max of -2/-2, so there is always a "to hit" penalty for TWF. You can add an off-hand damage penalty to simulate 3E's 1/2 STR bonus for off-hand attacks.
Was the way weapon styles were implemented in these games previously more or less unbalanced and unrealistic vs the way they are going to be utilized in SoD? Is the way the weapon switching is going to be utilized in SoD going to be more or less useful, flexible,et cetera vs the previous EE way?