The Lore of Lore - is there a possible explanation for this paradox?
justfeelinathome
Member Posts: 353
Sorry, this might take a few lines to explain.
One thing never made much sense to me. It's been bugging me and no matter how hard I worked my brain, I never came to a satisfying conclusion.
I can buy into the whole "both Intelligence and Wisdom factor into your Lore Score"-kind of thing and that bards just identify everything at a glance, because Lore is basically part of their profession, since it plays into the songs. Cursed Items (often 100) and Protection Scrolls (85, iirc) are apparently up there with the hardest items to recognize. Hmmm... Ordinary stuff like darts + 1 takes almost no Lore to recognize, since it does not have a backstory. Okay, I can believe all that.
But how, just how, does it make sense that the equipment of the great hero Balduran takes 100 to be recognized?? And Drizzts Scimitars take a whopping 80? Meanwhile, a weapon with a +2 enchantment and a legacy that is minuscule in comparison takes half the score.
There seems to be a general trend (with odd exceptions) that indicates the more famous an item should be, the harder it is to recognize it. If anyone has a plausible explanation for this, please enlighten me.
Since I never was more than a PC Gamer when it came to DnD there might be a Pen and Paper-reason for this that I am unaware of. I'll send a digital Cookie to whomever convinces me of their theory.
One thing never made much sense to me. It's been bugging me and no matter how hard I worked my brain, I never came to a satisfying conclusion.
I can buy into the whole "both Intelligence and Wisdom factor into your Lore Score"-kind of thing and that bards just identify everything at a glance, because Lore is basically part of their profession, since it plays into the songs. Cursed Items (often 100) and Protection Scrolls (85, iirc) are apparently up there with the hardest items to recognize. Hmmm... Ordinary stuff like darts + 1 takes almost no Lore to recognize, since it does not have a backstory. Okay, I can believe all that.
But how, just how, does it make sense that the equipment of the great hero Balduran takes 100 to be recognized?? And Drizzts Scimitars take a whopping 80? Meanwhile, a weapon with a +2 enchantment and a legacy that is minuscule in comparison takes half the score.
There seems to be a general trend (with odd exceptions) that indicates the more famous an item should be, the harder it is to recognize it. If anyone has a plausible explanation for this, please enlighten me.
Since I never was more than a PC Gamer when it came to DnD there might be a Pen and Paper-reason for this that I am unaware of. I'll send a digital Cookie to whomever convinces me of their theory.
2
Comments
m2c
Think about the grail-scene in Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade. Everyone in the room knew of the grail, but only someone with high lore could select the correct one from among the cups.
Correctly identifying an item from what is no doubt an arsenal of hundreds it not thousands of similar pieces all over the world is no easy feat. Even for a seasoned bard.
The explanation is likely the enchantment of the item, meaning that you won't be able to get full use out of the item unless you know what it is and how it works - WHY this is so is usually not explained or a bit contrived. However, once you accept that sort of behavior, the lore issue isn't a big stretch anymore. But the underlying issue is the identification process itself, not how it's done (lore, spell, whatever).
I suppose having to identify things makes more sense for things that have an ability that can be used, like a ring with a special once-per-day effect or something; you can always argue that you need some sort of command word to activate it or whatever and until you do, it doesn't do anything. However, when it comes to weapon and armor it's a bit strange to think they work the same for their continuous effect (not on-use effects), i.e. an echanted plate armor shouldn't really require you to have some sort of command for it to protect you well. You can always "fix" things by simply adding that mechanic to everything, but it just becomes very ridiculous at some point...
Meanwhile, you want to know what you got your hands on even more.
Though admitedly the mechanic is fun and I understand where the argument of recognizing versus just knowing that an item exists comes from, I still fail at understanding this: How is a bard more likely to have heard the story of some halfling hero and his short sword (because that's how I read item descriptions: as information the characters in game have and not as information that's given to me) then what is known of the tale of a city founder (and not just any city, but the city the items are found in).
I'm lead to believe that there is no deeper thought behind asigning a certain number to an item. I keep praying to Oghma for enlightenment.
Keep in mind we are dealing with things here that are fairly similar, like swords. They're not all identical, of course, but they're basically very much alike. Identifying even a famous person's personal sword can be very difficult to do, UNLESS you have more knowledge about it. That's what lore represents. A bard has heard all the stories, remembers all the details snatched up gods know where. And then, when they see that sword - BAMM, they realize that with that pommel and that crossguard and that peculiar notch at the top that happened at that time that drunk guy in that tavern was talking about... this must surely be Balduran's Sword.
At least that's how I'll see it from here on out. Things start to make a lot more sense if I think of it that way.
While there is probably not a definite explanation, this one works for me. I'm glad to have started this thread though I initially felt like I should be able to understand it myself.
Thanks to all!
Certainly, it would have been cool if the developers had taken items like the Helm of Balduran and given them unique "unidentified descriptions" - i.e., flavor text without abilities.
As to BG specifically, never quite understood myself why "ammo+2" is relatively so hard to identify with lore, compared with melee weapons.
My explanation of the Helm of Balduran / Drizzt's scimitars lore check would be that no person normally could ever imagine being in possession of the authentic ones.
As comparison, there is piece of clothing (or some other object, not sure my memory serves) from the biblical Moses - purportedly, on display in Istanbul. So they say, but I'd certainly want a lore check on that!
Dr. Jones was wise in concluding that Jesus, being a man who walked among the poor and openly condemned the rich and greedy, wouldn't possess an ostentatious cup of gold adorned with jewels.
I love how, when enough people partake in a discussion, be it face to face or on the internet, it will always take a random direction.
@TStael If your memory doesn't serve, take a bard to the museum, just to make sure. Or an expert in replicas, which might have the next highest Lore-score in our world, at least in his area of expertise.
You see, the forgotten realms, are a land full of stories. Stories that urgently need to be told and absorbed by the listener. The canny merchant and helpful temple cleric have simply attuned themselves to listen to the stories in the items that are brought to them, in much the same way as an adventurers lore grows with his or her own story, that they create as they head towards glory, infamy or death.
Great adventurers carve great stories and great items will weave their own stories into them...
Lore then is the skill of listening to the story of things and allowing them to join your own story...
...
Plus, this is a medieval society. Branding was used... Literally. You could find out what an object was, or make an educated guess, by simply finding the brand name or mark.
There is no paradox!
Sure, your character might recognize a heavily enchanted and famous longsword as being the long lost weapon of a famous admiral who conquered the seas of cheese, but unless they have enough lore--the understanding, not just recognition, of a wide breadth of weapons and enchantments from experience--they won't be able to properly wield the weapon, understand the its required techniques or draw upon its more subtle benefits. Even if they think they know what they're holding in their hand.
As your character acquires experience they level up and are exposed to a wider array of tactics, usage styles, tricks of the trade, life-hacks... whatever you want to call them. Their familiarity with the arcane, the divine and the downright strange increases. It is this history, the experience they acquire along their path from Baldur's Gate to Amn, that they tap into when they encounter a new weapon, recognize its similarities to other objects, and quickly familiarize themselves with its new properties, using past knowledge as a base to start or extrapolate from.
This carries over into magical abilities themselves. Yes the forgotten realms are crawling with LARPers running around throwing bean bags, yelling "Lightning Bolt. Lightning Bolt, " and falling to the ground in imagined agony when hit, then running home to lock themselves in a cellar and calling it the abyss.
Rashad's Talon.
This is supposed to be the personal +2 Scimitar of a prince?
Well...2 of them are found in BG1, far away from each other. A third is found in BG2. What are the chances of the guy either having 3 scimitars, or even if he just had two, one of them just happening to travel with you to Amn?
Further proof:
Ashideena is found in both BG1 and BG2. The one in BG2 being sold by a merchant in trademeet. So either this was your personal weapon in BG1 (something which would not be true for all Charnames), or a merchant in BG2 simply thinks that his warhammer +2 with electricity damage *must* be the famous one with those properties.
*Finds random bastard sword*
"Oh, why yes, this is the legendary, uh, Sword of Balduran, renowned to, uh, kill lycanthropes at the slightest touch! Yes, absolutely. No question."
"Purporedly" says it all - I don't believe it is from Moses, and no lore-master could convince me, come think of it. But thankfully i am a bit more gullible in RPGs!
Could have been a sword too... If you ever visit Topkapi palace, keep yer eyes peeled, if u wish.
Lore could be regarded as "street smarts" instead of (but not excluding) actual knowledge in history, politics and environment.