Mob Scaling: Yes or No?
prairiechicken
Member Posts: 149
One of the issues I have with BG is that while the non-linearity gives people more choice and helps the game feel fresh, the average mobs are quickly trivialized to the point that they might as well not exist. The areas are tuned in a way that it is possible for players straight out of Chateau Irenicus to tackle - and it makes things utter faceroll for characters with few more levels. I don't really find it fun to see band of goblins or orcs in dungeons that die in a touch.
There are few mobs that scale (Adamantite Golems, Elder Orbs, etc), but they are largely confined to certain areas and even these eventually can be overleveled.
On the other hand, some people hate level scaling because it removes a sense of progression. It is legitimate issue to have level 18 characters struggle to band of goblins, and while it can be circumvented with more elite mobs spawning in its place it can also create RP problems.
So are you for or against mobs scaling to match the player power?
There are few mobs that scale (Adamantite Golems, Elder Orbs, etc), but they are largely confined to certain areas and even these eventually can be overleveled.
On the other hand, some people hate level scaling because it removes a sense of progression. It is legitimate issue to have level 18 characters struggle to band of goblins, and while it can be circumvented with more elite mobs spawning in its place it can also create RP problems.
So are you for or against mobs scaling to match the player power?
- Mob Scaling: Yes or No?67 votes
- Yes25.37%
- No64.18%
- Other10.45%
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In Oblivion, they changed it dramatically. Now, basically all difficulty was level scaled. You could beat the main quest at level 2, or even level 1 if you used a trick on a quest. But if you cranked up your level to 20, you would often struggle even against nameless bandits and monsters out in the wilderness. The most effective way to powergame was to avoid gaining levels, since enemies usually got more strength from those levels than you did.
Then they balanced it out in Skyrim. Unlike Oblivion, you can't expect to strut into any old tomb at level 2 and expect to come out in one piece, and you actually get stronger as you gain levels. But unlike Morrowind, you won't get crushed the moment you stray from the beaten path, and the game won't become a complete cakewalk just because you've hit level 20. Oscuro's Oblivion Overhaul, a difficulty mod for Oblivion, does the same thing, though its level scaling is weaker, and its base difficulty higher, than vanilla Skyrim.
In BG2, minor encounters grow slightly with your level, up to a point. But boss battles are never scaled. The difficulty can take a steep dive if you do more quests than you need to buy your trip to Spellhold. If there was some limited level scaling for all encounters, then the difficulty wouldn't fluctuate as wildly as it does for completionist or minimalist runs.
The player should be able to get plenty of levels so they can see their character grow, but the battles they face should be correspondingly more large-scale to keep things satisfying.
I loved Morrowind for its static levels. Walking into a cave, hitting a bandit and seeing that it did nothing? I fondly remember going "nope!", turning to run only to get flattened by his great hammer. I came back to the same cave later and two shotted the guy. It felt great.
I hated oblivion. It's leveling ruined the game for me.
I am currently at the same place in both play throughs, Peldvale, making my way to the bandit camp.
In my novelization, I have 3 party members: Kivan, level 2, Kagain level 2 and my PC Level 2 cleric with two inactive levels of ranger.
My rushed playthrough, I have a full party (Imoen, Garrick, Kivan, Neera, Branwen and a Swashbuckler). They are all leveled 3 and 4.
My novelization play through, I was fighting regular bandits while walking through Peldvale. During my rushed one, I was tackling Elite only with clusters of bears. If the leveling wasn't scaled, I would have found either my novelization one too hard, where I would have to break the style of play I was attempting to go level up and recruit more companions; or my rushed one too easy as I would have utterly destroyed common bandits without any challenge.
I took different paths during these play throughs as well. In the novelization, I ventured to the Friendly Arm Inn first as advice from my foster father (RP). In my rushed, I headed south into High Hedge first to quickly pick up Kivan and then after doing a few quests in Beregost, headed straight to Nashkel. When it was time to go to Peldvale, I hadn't even highlighted the map below the Friendly Arm Inn. When I reached there, was I was fighting packs of wolves instead of lone ones, a nice surprise from what I am use to in that area that gave it a slightly better challenge than what I expected, or had fought before.
The scaling allows a player to choose where he or she wanted to venture to first, without hindering their experience one way or another and I enjoy that about this game. It allows the player to keep it fresh and experience it in different ways each time they play. Without scaling, the game would become very linear with immersion breaking warnings (recommended levels 5-6) attached to each area.
That doesn't mean I don't think every encounter should be scaled. Any encounter tied to a quest or the main story line should remain the same. There needs to be some indication of how powerful the party should be at different stages of the game. It'd also be annoying if a regular belt fetish ogre turned into an Ogre Mage and all you got from finishing the quest was a stupid book and an order to take a bath. Challenge and Reward should an evening scale or it could jade the experience.
A hybrid system would probably work best. I imagine something along the lines of exp/lvl brackets. Within a bracket, only certain types of enemies spawn; but those enemies also scale within the bracket. For example, the aforementioned goblin would spawn for a party of anything from lvl 5 to lvl 10, but the goblin's level would also vary from 5 to 10, depending. When the party is lvl 11, goblins no longer spawn, and something else spawns instead, say, trolls. These then also scale from 11 to 15 or whatever, and so on. The top end would be something like liches, demon knights, etc. How the "party lvl" is calculated would probably be contingent on total party XP or something like that.
This of course also has some RP issues, but unless you want to manually set tables of enemies and stats for every single area in the game, a bit of friction is perhaps an okay compromise.
Balance can be achieved in other ways. For example:
- slow down lvl progression so that you don't get a level up every single side quest you make, this way even if you do multiple side quests you'll not end up slaughtering everyone when you go back on the main quest
- limit the Diablo-style power creep where you find better equipment everytime you turn a corner or check a container (I hate modern games with level up based containers)
- instead of leveling up critters based on your level, do something similar to BG2 random encounters where the encounter itself is a bit scaled. For example if you wait too long to infiltrate Nalia's Keep you might have to face better prepared enemies with more traps, ambushes, monsters, etc.
- etc.
Short story: I understand that adding +x level and/or x2 damage/hps multiplier is easier (and sometimes, moderately it can be done) but having the very same creature in the very same place behave like a kitten or like a dragon depending on my level seriously break my immersion.
Games with no level scaling generally feel more immersive and realistic. It feels great being in an area you know you're not supposed to be in and trying to conquer it regardless, or maybe just sneak through, knowing you could die at any moment. The world is more believable, having both safe and perilous places. It's just a more genuine experience, giving you a true sense of progression and a direct way to gauge how powerful you've become (battling the same opponent at different points in time). The high level areas feel more elite and give you a sense of achievement when you can finally hold your own there - especially after getting defeated handily earlier.
It also allows for fun strategies, once you get to know the game well - like getting a powerful item or doing a quest in a "tough" area early, to give yourself an advantage and strongly kickstart a run.
Of course, the problem with this model is that you can out-level significant parts of the game and eventually reach a power level so high, nothing remains a challenge anymore. Especially in open, non-linear games. I feel that can be remedied through better design, though, and if all else fails, it's fixable by mods (not an ideal solution, for sure, but it's something).
With level scaling, what difference does it make, whether you're a low level peon or a high level hero? What good are all those levels and items when everything feels roughly the same?
If everything is scaled to your level, you know you can safely travel basically everywhere, at any point in the game - there's no danger, no challenge of beating something clearly intended for a later stage of the game, no real progression and change. While playing such games I generally get the feeling that whatever I do and whatever happens, it doesn't really matter since I'm "supposed" to be able to handle it anyway - everything is designed to be in my level range. It seems like your actions have less impact and little meaning. And when you reach the highest tier of scaled content, you encounter the same enemies, dropping the same things, over and over. Design-wise, level scaling just seems like an easy way out.
Of course I'm exaggerating a bit in both cases. Like I said, it ultimately depends on the execution. I've had fun with both models and I feel like one particular poor experience with level scaling (Oblivion) left a big scar on my mind :+). The ideal solution would probably be a general non-scaled game with some hybrid elements - like BG2's few available sets of enemy types in dungeon areas and randomly generated encounters rising in difficulty, depending on your level.
The exception is bosses. I think with bosses, scaling the boss themselves is probably fine. Still an... uncreative way to handle boss scaling, but it may at times be necessary.
The situation you describe definitely has two sides, though. You can also end up in a situation where you "completed too many side quests" and as a result steamroll things left and right. Prime example: finishing all the side areas before going to the Underdark. Makes most of the things there a joke. Finish WK and they're a COMPLETE joke.
especially the "time-scaling" instead of level scaling idea.
you can apply that logic to almost any quest:
waiting a long time to beat sarevok? sarevok and his buddies get progressively more powerful with new powers (but they could start weaker than original)
leaving windspear hills for later? a powerful organization sends an expedition down there and you have to fight strong henchmen to get through
planar prison? there was a breach attempt so security is raised
giving lavok much free time? his experiments breed a terrible terrible monster
delaying spellhold? irenicus has subverted a large number of cowled wizards as the "coordinator" and the asylum rebellion is interrupted
not rushing to destroy the vampires? they get some evil mercenary mages to protect their lair
...
also people will start using potions...no one ever uses healing potions, i'm being told
also, i'm talking about months upon months of elapsed time, so that leaves a lot of room to do everything in due time
I think the IWD approach of adding some more mobs depending on the difficulty level is fine. Scaling the abilities of the opposition with the difficulty level is also good.
Auto-scaling just related to your ingame progress is something I couldn't get behind. I loathed Bethesdas games for that kind of formula.
Dunno, probably depends on ones perspective on the game. While I like the strategic aspects of it, I still see it as a D&D cRPG first, and a strategy game second. I don't need every fight to be a challenge as long as the game still provides enough of them when it is appropriate.
Guarded Compound: The slavers gather enough money to hire Cowled Wizards as extra guards.
Unseeing Eye quest: When previous acolytes fail to take the Rift Device, Gaal trains a new elite corps of blind priests to go after them.
Windspear Hills: Instead of a standard orc party, a famous orc warlord and his massive entourage cross your path.
Spellhold labyrinth: Bodhi takes the time to optimize her dungeon, and brings in more exotic enemies to replace the kobolds and minotaurs.
De'Arnise Hold: Isaea Roenall takes over, and brings in his own high-quality personal guard.
City of Caverns: As the civil war heats up, Villynaty and Ixilthetocal strike deals in the Underdark out of desperation, and drow warriors join the fray.
Example: Windspear Hills is a bunch of ragtag orcs ranging from like level 8-13. If you go there fresh out of Chateau Irenicus you'll face weaker, lower leveled orc warriors and archers. Go there after getting a few levels and you'll find they've improved. Maybe now you're facing level 11-13 orcs, with hobgoblins or orogs mixed in. They could be better equipped as well. Maybe throw in some Orc Shamans or something to get some spells involved.
Obviously each area needs an upper limit. It would make no sense at all to show up post-Underdark and have the place crawling with demons...
Level scaling can work, it just needs to be done properly.
EDIT: Bosses should only be scaled up. You need to be at an appropriate power level to continue progressing in the story. But if you come into it having milked all the extra XP you could out of side quests, be prepared to face a much stronger, smarter boss.
For example in goblin fortress in IWD2, my 6-player party was pretty low level and the fight was mostly tank spank with decent number of mobs. In my 4-player party I was like 2 levels higher, and suddenly I was fighting x3 number of mobs with much more elites. But I also had level 3 and 4 spells like Fireball, Thorn Spray, Flame Strike, etc, and throwing many powerful spells at enemies before they overwhelm me made it totally different fight.