@iasson: If you fail to see what's wrong with your post, I'll offer an experiment: CTRL-F: homosexual romance CTRL-V: black people. Replace every mention of homosexual romance with black people - same wordings, only a different group of people. Would it be found to be acceptable?
Since this is a game that we all love and its considered one of the classic games, the creators should listen to the majority/minority of the players that dont want any black people in their game. Its that simple. Its very easy for the programmers to have a button to enable or disable black people so both parties are happy and pleased. Its no discrimination at all. Simply since its a fictionary game everyone should play in a world that is the way we want it. In real life u cant be evil without ending up excecuted or for life in prison. In real life u cant avoid black people. In games u can be evil and kill everyone so why not be able not to find any black people at all? My opinion is if they dont respect us and give us an OFF, it will be discriminating towards us.
Such a post would be deemed to be racist and unacceptable by most people's standard. I'm looking forward to the day when most people would find such a post about homosexual people just as unacceptable.
And I'm looking forward for the day when you will stop being judged for stating your opinion and disliking something. Hate/Love its a personal choice you cant force people to accept you. Thats why we have free will, but whether you like it or not, even if you actually take a spot in the gaming/real/imaginary world the people who dispises you still will. And because you dont see it anymore it wont mean it wont be there. Go ahead strive for your equal whatever but realize that you are the worst facist among us, trying to make people feel bad cause they dont like your personal choice and they dont want to know what you do with your personal life.
And ask yourself about the reason homosexual people are getting more freedom lately. Because times changed and people are more liberal and full of understanding? Nop. The answer is MONEY. They see a whole new market of people who waited years for that chance.
I don't see how I can be a fascist in striving for a world where people accept eachother for what they are. I also don't see what being homosexual has got to do with personal choice? Should they choose to remain in the closet? Is that what you imply? What about all the heterosexual couples holding hands and kissing on the street and confronting singles like me with their personal life?
And what about all the thieves, the bosses, the women-haters (Anomen), the racists, the child-killers, the murderers? There's much more REAL evil to dislike in the game, than just one bisexual character will be in the game. Should we have an option to have all I dislike IRL out of the game? There won't be much of Baldur's Gate left. Not implying I dislike the game, but I fail to see how there being a bisexual character in the game, whom you don't HAVE to romance if you don't want to, can spoil your game-fun in any way.
And yes, I will fight hate and dispising and not accept it.
(Which makes one wonder though about the question of tolerance of intoleration. It's hard to tolerate intolerance).
"In real life you have no choice. In games you do. You do things you cant do in the reality. You go to places that are not there. Give me a reason why not be able to live in the world of your like, whether right or wrong."
@iasson, this statement seems to me like a great argument for including the possiblity to romance or be sexually interested in any npc in any game. Thanks for stating a great argument for gay romances in games, to be activated or not by player choices in the dialogue screens.
@Son_of_Imoen, I actually wasn't meaning to be sarcastic by invoking Bobby McFerrin. I was really just trying to use humor to diffuse a potentially explosive situation, and to not have my good mood for this afternoon ruined by hate and anger. I succeeded. I just had a fantastic afternoon enjoying a great game of Neverwinter Nights 2 and petting and hugging my beloved cats in my lap.
@Son_of_Imoen, I actually wasn't meaning to be sarcastic by invoking Bobby McFerrin. I was really just trying to use humor to diffuse a potentially explosive situation, and to not have my good mood for this afternoon ruined by hate and anger. I succeeded. I just had a fantastic afternoon enjoying a great game of Neverwinter Nights 2 and petting and hugging my beloved cats in my lap.
Allright. Now I only gotta diffuse my own agitation. It's nice how you turned iasson's argument on it's head: creating a fantasy world with choices implies (thanks Aosaw) the need for more gay romances.
This week I made plans for a new party. I'm going to try out how gay-romance 'is like' by installing Faren. That's the fun of roleplaying: trying something out you're not IRL.
@Son_of_Imoen, kudos to you for being willing to step outside your comfort zone in order to try to gain insight into the lives of a minority group that is different from you.
There is another mod with a gay npc, Nathaniel, that you might want to try while you're trying Faren.
Nathaniel is a kensai, and thus is not very good in any strategic tactical gameplay because of his terrible AC. And, his mod tends to break if you try to dual him or change his stats. But, his story as a gay man is top-notch.
Faren is also a superlative bisexual npc, and he can actually help you in a power-party, because you can set him up to be a fighter-thief.
Another factor: Nathaniel is very easy to add to your party early in the game, because he is set to be added as soon as you go to the docks district and turn to the east (right from the entrance gates).
Faren is a little harder to get into your party, because he is waiting in the prison cells in Trademeet along with Cernd, and so, you have to fight your way out there before you can add him.
EDIT: you might want to try *my* solution for the lack of easy italicization on this forum. Simply use "*" around what you want to emphasize. That's *my* solution. Very easy. *Get* it? Get *it*? Etc.
Regarding the post of "A world the way you want it", the creator of the Realms has stated that the Realms is a place where homosexuality is regarded to be of no particular consequence, the same as liking/preferring blondes or red-heads would be. So, in seeking to take such content out of the game, it's those seeking not to have it who are attempting to make the world the way they want it. i.e. without homosexuals/bisexuals in it.
Nathaniel maybe another time. I'm using the mod described by you as 'masochistic', SCS, and having a low AC Kensai might be a pain in the *** (no pun intended) if SCS ups the difficulty. And my party is already well rounded-off as I plan it.
Meet the "I went to a party in the County Jail" Jailhouse Rock party:
Mazzy (found in the Temple Prison), Anomen (partying in the Copper Coronet), Faren (Trademeet Jail), Cernd (Trademeet Jail), Keto (getting drunk in the Five Flagons), Charname (held captive at Chateau Irenicus).
(edit: apparantly I missed something very offensive that got deleted. I'm glad the thread is still there and though I'm curious what caused the 'page doesn't exist message' when clicking the new-comment link in my mailbox, for my mental well-being it's probably better I didn't see it).
Okay, so I went on the Candlekeep Forum where you can ask Ed Greenwood questions about the Realms. The Forum is mainly answered by the person called "The Hooded One" who has been playing in Ed's home Campaign for many years. This is what I asked...
"Okay, some questions for Ed and THO. I'm wondering about the sex lives of monks in the Forgotten Realms. Being that their monks are not the monks we think of in Western culture, and aren't really Far Eastern monks, either (given that Danica Maupoissant married and had children with Cadderly Bonaduce). Are monks in the Forgotten Realms allowed to have relationships? And is this decision made by the monk him or herself, their superior at the Monastery they are raised at, or by the order the Monastery is a part of? And if Monks are allowed to marry and have children, where do these loved ones and offspring stay when the monk is at his or her monastery? I assume, that, like the children of clerics, these children are prime candidates to be future monks.
Secondly, on a related note, I noticed in one of the earlier year replies from Ed, it was implied that homosexuality and "other" sexuality is not considered with any great horror or interest in the Realms. Is there any sort of prejudice at all towards people whose sexualities are not the "Usual" ones (asexuals, polysexuals, bisexuals, etc.) in the Realms, and if so, who or what is this from? i.e. Religious, cultural, etc. Is there any specific religion which looks down on "Non-standard" sexual interests. (Shiallia, I noticed, thinks that all creatures should produce offspring- how does this work out in a day to day fashion?) I'm sorry if this "rustles anyone's jimmies" so to speak, but I love this aspect of the Realms, and I wondered how this plays out. Is any kind of attitude which looks down on these sexualities accepted if it comes out of a certain faith, or is it something that people would call the person expressing such an attitude out on? Do characters of an evil persuasion have more of a chance to be against such relations? And would such an attitude, if it exists, be more likely to occur in the smaller towns/hamlets or in big cities? Or is it just a non-issue entirely? Or am I completely wrong? I ask because with the release of the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition, they are adding a character who is bisexual, and this has some people in an uproar about how such things don't exist in the Realms... which I know from reading this website, and these threads, just aren't true. But I was wondering about the attitude towards such things as a whole. And I apologize in advance if any of this has been asked before... there are so many threads, and I don't have much time to read them. I am going through them SLOWLY, but I did hope to get some kind of official or semi-official feedback. I apologize also about asking about such a hot-button topic. If only there was some way of searching these threads... Or did I just miss how to do so?
Another thing is... when it comes to festhalls, is there some way of knowing if a particular festhall caters to your, um, tastes? A long time ago, I read a fantasy novel where the houses had a system of colored lanterns hung outside to signal that they catered to :women for women (pink), Men for men (green), Men for women (gold/yellow) and women for men (white/clear). Is there something similar or analogous in the Realms?"
And I got this reply: "Hi again, all. LadyRhian, those are great questions, and deserve full-on answers (from Ed, as well as other interested scribes), but I can make a quick beginning at some of them.
"Are monks in the Forgotten Realms allowed to have relationships? And is this decision made by the monk him or herself, their superior at the Monastery they are raised at, or by the order the Monastery is a part of? And if Monks are allowed to marry and have children, where do these loved ones and offspring stay when the monk is at his or her monastery?" The quickie answer is: it depends on the faith.
"I assume, that, like the children of clerics, these children are prime candidates to be future monks." Quickie Answer: Very much yes.
"Another thing is... when it comes to festhalls, is there some way of knowing if a particular festhall caters to your, um, tastes? A long time ago, I read a fantasy novel where the houses had a system of colored lanterns hung outside to signal that they catered to :women for women (pink), Men for men (green), Men for women (gold/yellow) and women for men (white/clear). Is there something similar or analogous in the Realms?" Quickie Answer: in some places, and with some festhalls. Other festhalls have "discreet" entrances and profiles, and still others pretend to be (or really, partly, are) something else (like an eatery/restaurant, themed club, etc.).
Real answers must wait for now. Ed continues to be furiously busy. love, THO"
So, still waiting to hear an answer from Ed, but take this for what you will in the meantime.
In case this thread is locked when he answers, could you write up my name somewhere and pm me when he answers? I'm very interested in hearing what he would say.
@Scriver@trinit@belgarathmth No problem, and will do. And, well, it took me a few minutes to write that. I went back to add the Festhall question.. Now, I just have to hope this thread doesn't pull a Mission Impossible tape (This thread will self-destruct in 5 seconds...), and we're good to go.
And I'm looking forward for the day when you will stop being judged for stating your opinion and disliking something. Hate/Love its a personal choice you cant force people to accept you. Thats why we have free will, but whether you like it or not, even if you actually take a spot in the gaming/real/imaginary world the people who dispises you still will. And because you dont see it anymore it wont mean it wont be there. Go ahead strive for your equal whatever but realize that you are the worst facist among us, trying to make people feel bad cause they dont like your personal choice and they dont want to know what you do with your personal life.
And ask yourself about the reason homosexual people are getting more freedom lately. Because times changed and people are more liberal and full of understanding? Nop. The answer is MONEY. They see a whole new market of people who waited years for that chance.
You could answer "money" to any question, so that is an intellectual cop-out. Basically your point is the ever-charming "you're a bigot for not tolerating my bigotry", which is, as ever, completely fucking stupid. Yes. Tell us again how MLK was a big racist for making KKK members feel bad.
I will be really disappointed if there aren't male-male romances in this I am a gay guy and I want gay romance! As has been stated Ed Greenwood supports sexual diversity and there are many characters that are not heterosexual in the realms. In the Baldur's Gate 2 novel Imoen has a love affair with Phaere, for example. Forgotten Realms novels contain many bisexual characters like Danifae+Quenthel. The author Eric Scott de Bie has posted on candlekeep.com that he has written bisexual characters and intends to do so in the future. A fantasy world doesn't need to contain the bigotry and close mindedness of the real world. Why do the game creators need to cater to people who are offended by homosexuality........while including mass murder, torture, slavery, etc. in the same product.
The NPC mod for Icewind Dale 2 had a male-male romance that was really lame and annoying. I hope for a better one in the future.
@mrhedgehog, baldur's gate novels are fan made content and fantasy worlds are based on variations of the real world, it's very rare to see an fantasy history made without a minimum reflex in the real world.
Beamdig already stated that will be an gay romance and it will be a male one, so it's going to be Dorn or Rasaad.
From my personal tastes i want more straight and lesbian romances (no lesbian romances yet), so i hope the devs make a focus on those kind of romances therefore on.
@kamuizin, the Knights of the Old Republic game had a female npc from a race of cat-descended aliens named "Juhani" who was romanceble by a female pc. I played KOTOR as a female and was romancing Carth, and I remember being very (pleasantly) surprised when Juhani started awkardly telling me she had fallen in love with me. I also had appropriate "letting her down gently" dialogue responses to choose.
It's been a very long time since I played KOTOR, so I don't remember the details, but I remember being impressed with the sensitive writing. If I recall correctly, there were also a lot of interactions with Bastilla, which, while not openly gay, heavily implied a strong love-bond between her and my female protagonist.
@LadyRhian Going by the extreme exemplars of extreme alignments: CE beings use sexualities and relationships as tools and indulgences, LE beings do it for appearances and displays of intent, LG seem to shun it entirely (unless zaphkiel has a baby momma somewhere), ang CG has unstructured, undefined blissful love for all. They all seem to side step it. Even with beings not requiring fertility or sex to reproduce, whenever species exist as their ofspring (forlaren and such) they are almost always specifically described as needing a male X and a female X. Often reversing the sexuality of the parents results in a different sub species as offspring (again, with magical procreation). I have NEVER seen a creature specifically born of the union or essence of 2 mystical entities but requireing them to be of the same sex (unless COMPLETELY sexless such as a monodrone) but the other way is spelled out repeatedly. Most of these joinings have the same result if sexual congress is used for procreation (cambions, some lolth species ect.). No demons or fairies born of butt sex or funner stuff as far as I can find. Damn shame really. Maybe a species of genie, aberration, or energy being someplace.... possibly an oracle fey, or elemental weird.
EDIT: Eh, just found one.... but unfortunately it requires the spread of a magical disease *Sighing facepalm*. Admittedly the only evidence I am going off of is the seemingly deliberate "male" version of this creature's name being used, but no male pronouns. I call that anecdotal evidence at best.
What are you talking about? The Baldur's Gate novels are official Forgotten Realms novels that are considered canon.
<.< you cut that out right now. The BG novels were rushed poorly made pieces of iblith.
(For the record I am not speaking against your desire to have gay romances, I 100% believe there should be more equality in the realms novels...But the bg novels were the poorest excuse for an adaptation ever)
Comments
And ask yourself about the reason homosexual people are getting more freedom lately.
Because times changed and people are more liberal and full of understanding? Nop.
The answer is MONEY. They see a whole new market of people who waited years for that chance.
And what about all the thieves, the bosses, the women-haters (Anomen), the racists, the child-killers, the murderers? There's much more REAL evil to dislike in the game, than just one bisexual character will be in the game. Should we have an option to have all I dislike IRL out of the game? There won't be much of Baldur's Gate left. Not implying I dislike the game, but I fail to see how there being a bisexual character in the game, whom you don't HAVE to romance if you don't want to, can spoil your game-fun in any way.
And yes, I will fight hate and dispising and not accept it.
(Which makes one wonder though about the question of tolerance of intoleration. It's hard to tolerate intolerance).
You go to places that are not there. Give me a reason why not be able to live in the world of your like, whether right or wrong."
@iasson, this statement seems to me like a great argument for including the possiblity to romance or be sexually interested in any npc in any game. Thanks for stating a great argument for gay romances in games, to be activated or not by player choices in the dialogue screens.
@Son_of_Imoen, I actually wasn't meaning to be sarcastic by invoking Bobby McFerrin. I was really just trying to use humor to diffuse a potentially explosive situation, and to not have my good mood for this afternoon ruined by hate and anger. I succeeded. I just had a fantastic afternoon enjoying a great game of Neverwinter Nights 2 and petting and hugging my beloved cats in my lap.
This week I made plans for a new party. I'm going to try out how gay-romance 'is like' by installing Faren. That's the fun of roleplaying: trying something out you're not IRL.
There is another mod with a gay npc, Nathaniel, that you might want to try while you're trying Faren.
Nathaniel is a kensai, and thus is not very good in any strategic tactical gameplay because of his terrible AC. And, his mod tends to break if you try to dual him or change his stats. But, his story as a gay man is top-notch.
Faren is also a superlative bisexual npc, and he can actually help you in a power-party, because you can set him up to be a fighter-thief.
Another factor: Nathaniel is very easy to add to your party early in the game, because he is set to be added as soon as you go to the docks district and turn to the east (right from the entrance gates).
Faren is a little harder to get into your party, because he is waiting in the prison cells in Trademeet along with Cernd, and so, you have to fight your way out there before you can add him.
EDIT: you might want to try *my* solution for the lack of easy italicization on this forum. Simply use "*" around what you want to emphasize. That's *my* solution. Very easy. *Get* it? Get *it*? Etc.
Meet the "I went to a party in the County Jail" Jailhouse Rock party:
Mazzy (found in the Temple Prison),
Anomen (partying in the Copper Coronet),
Faren (Trademeet Jail), Cernd (Trademeet Jail),
Keto (getting drunk in the Five Flagons),
Charname (held captive at Chateau Irenicus).
(edit: apparantly I missed something very offensive that got deleted. I'm glad the thread is still there and though I'm curious what caused the 'page doesn't exist message' when clicking the new-comment link in my mailbox, for my mental well-being it's probably better I didn't see it).
"Okay, some questions for Ed and THO. I'm wondering about the sex lives of monks in the Forgotten Realms. Being that their monks are not the monks we think of in Western culture, and aren't really Far Eastern monks, either (given that Danica Maupoissant married and had children with Cadderly Bonaduce). Are monks in the Forgotten Realms allowed to have relationships? And is this decision made by the monk him or herself, their superior at the Monastery they are raised at, or by the order the Monastery is a part of? And if Monks are allowed to marry and have children, where do these loved ones and offspring stay when the monk is at his or her monastery? I assume, that, like the children of clerics, these children are prime candidates to be future monks.
Secondly, on a related note, I noticed in one of the earlier year replies from Ed, it was implied that homosexuality and "other" sexuality is not considered with any great horror or interest in the Realms. Is there any sort of prejudice at all towards people whose sexualities are not the "Usual" ones (asexuals, polysexuals, bisexuals, etc.) in the Realms, and if so, who or what is this from? i.e. Religious, cultural, etc. Is there any specific religion which looks down on "Non-standard" sexual interests. (Shiallia, I noticed, thinks that all creatures should produce offspring- how does this work out in a day to day fashion?) I'm sorry if this "rustles anyone's jimmies" so to speak, but I love this aspect of the Realms, and I wondered how this plays out. Is any kind of attitude which looks down on these sexualities accepted if it comes out of a certain faith, or is it something that people would call the person expressing such an attitude out on? Do characters of an evil persuasion have more of a chance to be against such relations? And would such an attitude, if it exists, be more likely to occur in the smaller towns/hamlets or in big cities? Or is it just a non-issue entirely? Or am I completely wrong? I ask because with the release of the Baldur's Gate Enhanced Edition, they are adding a character who is bisexual, and this has some people in an uproar about how such things don't exist in the Realms... which I know from reading this website, and these threads, just aren't true. But I was wondering about the attitude towards such things as a whole. And I apologize in advance if any of this has been asked before... there are so many threads, and I don't have much time to read them. I am going through them SLOWLY, but I did hope to get some kind of official or semi-official feedback. I apologize also about asking about such a hot-button topic. If only there was some way of searching these threads... Or did I just miss how to do so?
Another thing is... when it comes to festhalls, is there some way of knowing if a particular festhall caters to your, um, tastes? A long time ago, I read a fantasy novel where the houses had a system of colored lanterns hung outside to signal that they catered to :women for women (pink), Men for men (green), Men for women (gold/yellow) and women for men (white/clear). Is there something similar or analogous in the Realms?"
And I got this reply:
"Hi again, all.
LadyRhian, those are great questions, and deserve full-on answers (from Ed, as well as other interested scribes), but I can make a quick beginning at some of them.
"Are monks in the Forgotten Realms allowed to have relationships? And is this decision made by the monk him or herself, their superior at the Monastery they are raised at, or by the order the Monastery is a part of? And if Monks are allowed to marry and have children, where do these loved ones and offspring stay when the monk is at his or her monastery?"
The quickie answer is: it depends on the faith.
"I assume, that, like the children of clerics, these children are prime candidates to be future monks."
Quickie Answer: Very much yes.
"Another thing is... when it comes to festhalls, is there some way of knowing if a particular festhall caters to your, um, tastes? A long time ago, I read a fantasy novel where the houses had a system of colored lanterns hung outside to signal that they catered to :women for women (pink), Men for men (green), Men for women (gold/yellow) and women for men (white/clear). Is there something similar or analogous in the Realms?"
Quickie Answer: in some places, and with some festhalls. Other festhalls have "discreet" entrances and profiles, and still others pretend to be (or really, partly, are) something else (like an eatery/restaurant, themed club, etc.).
Real answers must wait for now. Ed continues to be furiously busy.
love,
THO"
So, still waiting to hear an answer from Ed, but take this for what you will in the meantime.
Basically your point is the ever-charming "you're a bigot for not tolerating my bigotry", which is, as ever, completely fucking stupid. Yes. Tell us again how MLK was a big racist for making KKK members feel bad.
The NPC mod for Icewind Dale 2 had a male-male romance that was really lame and annoying. I hope for a better one in the future.
Beamdig already stated that will be an gay romance and it will be a male one, so it's going to be Dorn or Rasaad.
From my personal tastes i want more straight and lesbian romances (no lesbian romances yet), so i hope the devs make a focus on those kind of romances therefore on.
It's been a very long time since I played KOTOR, so I don't remember the details, but I remember being impressed with the sensitive writing. If I recall correctly, there were also a lot of interactions with Bastilla, which, while not openly gay, heavily implied a strong love-bond between her and my female protagonist.
EDIT: Eh, just found one.... but unfortunately it requires the spread of a magical disease *Sighing facepalm*. Admittedly the only evidence I am going off of is the seemingly deliberate "male" version of this creature's name being used, but no male pronouns. I call that anecdotal evidence at best.
(For the record I am not speaking against your desire to have gay romances, I 100% believe there should be more equality in the realms novels...But the bg novels were the poorest excuse for an adaptation ever)
For BGEE its confirmed that there will only be a same sex romance option for men at release. BG2EE might be another story.