@Aosaw I'm really looking forward to your mod...and playing it twice! I really appreciate the effort you're putting into this, not just for the mod but in general. It means a lot to me.
@kamuizin I find it funny that you read Aosaw's post and took from it the idea of killing variation and diversity. Another way to explain it is that it's not about sticking in a token just to satisfy people, but being aware that minorities are also reading/playing your work and not defaulting to the most-used representations without at least thinking about it first.
@Jalily a mod maker can focus onto a bissexual romance as his main objective, his whole work in that mod will be to make a specific homo/bi romance relationship.
The devs must focus on the main saga, romance in the vanilla original content is something superficial be it straight or homo, it add to the history but we can't subvert the pruposes.
Aosaw didn't spoke about an specific game, he spoke of a principle to take care in each intelectual creation by always keep an homogeneous care to always satisfy everyone, and it's not only impossibile to satisfy everyone as trying to do so in intelectual creations normally finish by damaging the creation.
In his example, as a mod he will make a mod specifically to cover homossexual content, focusing the romance in his mod, an acessory content, is ok as that will be the whole objective of his creation, but we can't neither should ask for the devs to cover each possible acessory content with homogeneous, the main game objective isn't the pursue of romances.
Ps: It's funny this discussion cos this theme is even older than our own society, The greek myth of Trojan's Horse (not the malware) stated the same problem some thousand of years ago of be impossible to please both sides.
Whoa whoa whoa. Don't put words in my mouth, there. I didn't say that you should always be filling quotas, targeting every demographic ever. You're right that it's impossible to please everybody always. I think Bob Dylan said Lincoln said that.
What I meant was that people should make an effort not to ignore demographics, and and to be aware of discrepancies.
Also, you're making the (false!) assumption that the mod I'm devising is solely focused on creating a bisexual romance option. The goal is actually to create a character that is believable and compelling. I've made a conscious choice as an artist to make that character bisexual, in large part because of what @Jalily posted on the subject a while ago, but that doesn't mean the character is less compelling or in any way "damaged".
It's a shift in paradigm. You have to make the decision, at the start of the process, to be open-minded about your characters. There's nothing objectively wrong with Rasaad, Dorn, or Neera. But the fact that there is no homosexual female characters among them contributes to a larger problem in entertainment as a whole, which seems to make the assumption that "lesbian" is a sexual term used to attract male audiences, rather than a term used to signify a woman who is sexually attracted to other women.
And also, strictly speaking, there is no homosexual male character either. There is a bisexual male character, which only implies that that character was written gender-neutral with some pronoun tokens.
The inclusion of homosexual NPCs could conceivably open dialogue options the likes of which few games have seen. For instance: The party attends a feast in an inn. After many rounds of mead have been consumed and surreptitious gay jokes have increased in frequency; the party's lone gay male character is understandably on edge. As the feast winds down, the party gets up to leave the inn. Just think of the hilarity (and possible battle) that would ensue after the party's leader insists that they all push in their stools before they depart.
The gayer the content, the better. Add that shit in! Kivan is already gay in my opinion anyway. That BS about avenging his girlfriend is an act. What do I care if he wants to mack on Coran? As long as we take out Saervok and save the Sword Coast, who really cares?
While I do agree that a lesbian character should be represented (For that matter I think it is important for a non-bi homosexual male to be represented) I think it is unfair and out of line to say you lose respect for beamdog or that you claim that they have purposely left out these demographics.
I don't think anyone's saying that. The thesis being argued is that it is a symptom of inequality which is prevalent throughout the gaming industry, and this is just one of many cases where homosexuality takes a backseat to heteronormity, which has the unintentional side effect of making a homosexual player feel unimportant.
well that's normal, if you have a product on the market where 1.000.000 of persons like it in the "A" way and 1.000 persons like it in the "B" way, will you make the product in the "A" or in the "B" way? Nothing more natural than the devs focus the develop of romances to please the most numerous potential customers. They can even make some content for the "B" group but this isn't charity, neither a government social program, it's free initiative and the objective is profit.
I'm not putting the homossexual in the "B" category as i don't have enough data to evaluate tht, but what i say is an fact, it's just how business runs.
It's something unfair i give you that, but that's business. I put it simple here, of course things on real life are always a bit more complicate than that, but the raw idea is exactly what i pointed above.
agreed, @aosaw. and as far as i know great games (or any art) didn't become great and/or classic because they tried to cater to majority and milk as much as profit possible. usually for something to be great it takes risks and "less walked" roads, you know, exploring.
But either that fact is irrelevant here because it has no bearing on this matter (as you suggest), or it's intended to be analogous to this matter in which case it's inaccurate.
The ratio of heterosexuals to non-heterosexuals in the world isn't 1000:1, not by a long shot. So I really don't know if you were being intentionally misleading, or just using a non sequitur for no reason (which I guess would be the definition of a non sequitur...).
I didn't knew this information about the 1000:1 ratio, it was purely a shot in the dark the numbers i previous used, what could clearly lead to a misunderstanding, my bad if anyone think otherwise.
The same factor that i used here could be used on the 2Dx3D discussion, there, 90% of the people want BG3 as a 2D game while me inside a 10% of votes want the title as a 3D. If that pool become the sole base for the choice, the game will probally be 2D. That was what i intented to achieve with the use of statistics.
Please oh please Moderators...lock this fracking thread. All it does is go round and round with the same arguments being repeated and people just flaming each other on a topic that will never find resolution.
It is not the duty of the gaming industry to promote equality, tolerance, acceptance. We could discuss if gaming industry should have an education mandate given by politics. But as far as I know it doesn't have one right now.
It's not the legal obligation, but every artist has a responsibility to be aware of his or her own work and its implications and context. Game design is art, and falls into this same category. Of course, a lot of developers are starting to move forward with their concepts, and that's a good thing. But there's still room to improve, as with anything.
It's kind of like how America had slaves, and then America stopped having slaves, and then the people who used to be slaves weren't allowed to vote, and then they were allowed to vote, and then they weren't in movies, and then they were. And then they were only in movies if they were comic relief or killed early--and then they were playing important, realistic characters. And then they weren't allowed to be president, and then they were.
Equality is a spectrum, and it's a process. Acknowledging the shortcomings of the current system is just part of how that process continues. And art is a big part of it too.
@Aosaw i don't know the reasons of the abolish of slavery in america, but in Brazil, they where totally economic.
The "Lei Áurea", Aurea Law, signed by Isabel princess in May, 13 of 1988 had a total economic interest. Of course many movments pro-freedom exist at that time but what make the abolishment of slavery possible was the high rate of emigration interest existent on Europe at that time. The Black slaves were then replaced by european settlers that endured pratically the same treatment of the slaves, they were free in the paper yes, but they always profit with their labor less than the necessary to survive, so everyone owned a debt to the rich farmers, the owners of the land, therefore they couldn't leave at their whim in reason of those debts.
Just get a bit offtopic to show that sometimes the symptoms can change but the problem continue, some battles can only be own with time. Games at end are a product, and products are made with monetary interests in vision.
I can say that lucky us for count with a horde of awersome modders to turn Baldur's Gate in something better, and lucky us also, for be able to count with an company that don't forbid the unnoficial content, they will even make it easier to aplly unnoficial content on the game now.
I know a lot of talented people that can't find space on the market because their work just don't make a profit interest, a lot of awersome musicians, and even some small work game devs that try hard to get a place in the market.
I'm not against this fight for recognition, as Oscar Wilde* said, "why should the poor be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table?", but is a private forum protest the better tool to fight an machine moved by economic interests? Does this machine has any obligation with those minorities? But a government that can dictate social proposals and behaviors to companies has an obligation for those minorities, no?
To answer my own question, the game market acceptance is a consequence of the changes of society, that by the way each time more changes toward an equalism (in a good sense), however sometimes with a mislead path or another.
So in my view, the few official homossexual content obtained by forum request, while by far don't satiate the hunger of this minority, will be the best victory obtained by forum request means. If people see alternative mod content supply as a 2° class treatment, i see no solution for this problem, at least not using the current tools of fight to make this protest (forum complains and requests).
In America, slavery was abolished because of principle, not the economy. Actually one of the biggest obstacles to abolition was the question of how the economy would operate without a bunch of free labor. The invention of the cotton gin went a long way to justifying it, but the reason it was abolished was because enough people got up and said "enough is enough". (and then a bunch of other people stood up and said 'hey waitaminute', and then there was a war, but that's another post.)
If people see alternative mod content supply as a 2° class treatment, i see no solution for this problem, at least not using the current tools of fight to make this protest (forum complains and requests).
It is second-class treatment, because it says to one group of people, 'We'll do this thing for you,' and to another group of people, 'Do it yourselves.' In the same way, action films give pacifists second-class treatment by glorifying war. Want a film about making peace? Do it yourselves.
Does that mean it's intentionally disenfranchising that other group of people? No, of course not. Unless the developer says outright, "we're not going to do it ever," it's just an oversight. But it's an oversight that leaves that other group feeling less important, which is not ideal.
Which, incidentally, is probably why Dave is working on something for the lady-lovin'-ladies. Because he's a righteous dude, and wants to do right by the people who are already committed to playing the game. There's no economic driving force, there; it's purely an artistic one.
@Shandyr: You're treating the symptom as an isolated case, but that's not what's happening here.
As you say, Beamdog doesn't have to do anything at all. There's no legal obligation to represent specific minorities.
Moral obligation, though... that's another matter. Because here's the thing: games, movies and TV series are still coming out on a regular basis that exclude gays and lesbians altogether. And while Beamdog isn't responsible for what other people do, they are contributing to the problem - intentionally or not - by perpetuating a trend that really should've been dealt with ages ago.
(It's been said, but I'll reiterate: we wouldn't even be having this conversation if the issue were racial rather than sexual.)
The problem with the "artistic freedom" argument is that artistic freedom has a price: creators are free to say and do as they please, but they must then be judged by what they say and do. You can't duck that while still claiming the aegis of creative expression.
Personally, I'm not willing to castigate Beamdog for this, because I recognize that having a bisexual character in this particular game at all was already a step in the right direction (and because someone - was it Trent Oster or Dave Gross? - said a lesbian character would be introduced shortly anyway). But I don't blame @ami for feeling excluded, because based on the information that's currently available for BG:EE? She has been excluded. I hope that changes, and that BG:EE (or BG2:EE) is able to offer her something so many other games (and films and TV shows and books) have refused to even consider.
So we will kill variation and diversity for the sake of filling quotas, so we can avoid the rage of the minority? I don't think so.
Oh, the irony: you're blaming the death of "variation and diversity" on minorities who want games to have more variation and diversity. There's a "Yo Dawg" meme in there somewhere, I'm quite sure.
@shawne, you quoted an reply post for an statement previous made by @Aosaw, congratulations if the limit of your QI is criticize by misusing another person's idea.
By the way avoid call my name, you have absolutely no intent of develop an healthy discussion with me, you clearly intent to misuse anything i say to flame me. I don't like do discuss with stupid persons neither i have any interest in troll you atm, so don't take personal if i just stop of reply your posts.
@Shandyr: I've always thought that you don't have to belong to a particular minority to have some basic empathy for them. I could never claim to understand their experiences on a personal level, but the concepts like exclusion and prejudice aren't that hard to grasp.
Also, while you're right to point out that these games aren't required to add that content, you've overlooked the possibility that not adding that content sends a message too. It may not be a message the devs meant to send, but that's still part of the final outcome. This was something BioWare eventually understood with the Mass Effect series - omission can be a statement in and of itself.
Comments
@kamuizin I find it funny that you read Aosaw's post and took from it the idea of killing variation and diversity.
The devs must focus on the main saga, romance in the vanilla original content is something superficial be it straight or homo, it add to the history but we can't subvert the pruposes.
Aosaw didn't spoke about an specific game, he spoke of a principle to take care in each intelectual creation by always keep an homogeneous care to always satisfy everyone, and it's not only impossibile to satisfy everyone as trying to do so in intelectual creations normally finish by damaging the creation.
In his example, as a mod he will make a mod specifically to cover homossexual content, focusing the romance in his mod, an acessory content, is ok as that will be the whole objective of his creation, but we can't neither should ask for the devs to cover each possible acessory content with homogeneous, the main game objective isn't the pursue of romances.
Ps: It's funny this discussion cos this theme is even older than our own society, The greek myth of Trojan's Horse (not the malware) stated the same problem some thousand of years ago of be impossible to please both sides.
What I meant was that people should make an effort not to ignore demographics, and and to be aware of discrepancies.
Also, you're making the (false!) assumption that the mod I'm devising is solely focused on creating a bisexual romance option. The goal is actually to create a character that is believable and compelling. I've made a conscious choice as an artist to make that character bisexual, in large part because of what @Jalily posted on the subject a while ago, but that doesn't mean the character is less compelling or in any way "damaged".
It's a shift in paradigm. You have to make the decision, at the start of the process, to be open-minded about your characters. There's nothing objectively wrong with Rasaad, Dorn, or Neera. But the fact that there is no homosexual female characters among them contributes to a larger problem in entertainment as a whole, which seems to make the assumption that "lesbian" is a sexual term used to attract male audiences, rather than a term used to signify a woman who is sexually attracted to other women.
And also, strictly speaking, there is no homosexual male character either. There is a bisexual male character, which only implies that that character was written gender-neutral with some pronoun tokens.
And also kind of generally ignorant, but okay.
It's something unfair i give you that, but that's business. I put it simple here, of course things on real life are always a bit more complicate than that, but the raw idea is exactly what i pointed above.
and as far as i know great games (or any art) didn't become great and/or classic because they tried to cater to majority and milk as much as profit possible.
usually for something to be great it takes risks and "less walked" roads, you know, exploring.
edit-typos
The ratio of heterosexuals to non-heterosexuals in the world isn't 1000:1, not by a long shot. So I really don't know if you were being intentionally misleading, or just using a non sequitur for no reason (which I guess would be the definition of a non sequitur...).
The same factor that i used here could be used on the 2Dx3D discussion, there, 90% of the people want BG3 as a 2D game while me inside a 10% of votes want the title as a 3D. If that pool become the sole base for the choice, the game will probally be 2D. That was what i intented to achieve with the use of statistics.
It's kind of like how America had slaves, and then America stopped having slaves, and then the people who used to be slaves weren't allowed to vote, and then they were allowed to vote, and then they weren't in movies, and then they were. And then they were only in movies if they were comic relief or killed early--and then they were playing important, realistic characters. And then they weren't allowed to be president, and then they were.
Equality is a spectrum, and it's a process. Acknowledging the shortcomings of the current system is just part of how that process continues. And art is a big part of it too.
The "Lei Áurea", Aurea Law, signed by Isabel princess in May, 13 of 1988 had a total economic interest. Of course many movments pro-freedom exist at that time but what make the abolishment of slavery possible was the high rate of emigration interest existent on Europe at that time. The Black slaves were then replaced by european settlers that endured pratically the same treatment of the slaves, they were free in the paper yes, but they always profit with their labor less than the necessary to survive, so everyone owned a debt to the rich farmers, the owners of the land, therefore they couldn't leave at their whim in reason of those debts.
Just get a bit offtopic to show that sometimes the symptoms can change but the problem continue, some battles can only be own with time. Games at end are a product, and products are made with monetary interests in vision.
I can say that lucky us for count with a horde of awersome modders to turn Baldur's Gate in something better, and lucky us also, for be able to count with an company that don't forbid the unnoficial content, they will even make it easier to aplly unnoficial content on the game now.
I know a lot of talented people that can't find space on the market because their work just don't make a profit interest, a lot of awersome musicians, and even some small work game devs that try hard to get a place in the market.
I'm not against this fight for recognition, as Oscar Wilde* said, "why should the poor be grateful for the crumbs that fall from the rich man's table?", but is a private forum protest the better tool to fight an machine moved by economic interests? Does this machine has any obligation with those minorities? But a government that can dictate social proposals and behaviors to companies has an obligation for those minorities, no?
To answer my own question, the game market acceptance is a consequence of the changes of society, that by the way each time more changes toward an equalism (in a good sense), however sometimes with a mislead path or another.
So in my view, the few official homossexual content obtained by forum request, while by far don't satiate the hunger of this minority, will be the best victory obtained by forum request means. If people see alternative mod content supply as a 2° class treatment, i see no solution for this problem, at least not using the current tools of fight to make this protest (forum complains and requests).
*http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oscar_Wilde
An great mind that lived between 1854-1900, an anarchist and homossexual by the way (if this matter to anyone)
PS: if i reverie too much real sorry it's just an attempt to put wrote my ideas and understandment about the matter.
Does that mean it's intentionally disenfranchising that other group of people? No, of course not. Unless the developer says outright, "we're not going to do it ever," it's just an oversight. But it's an oversight that leaves that other group feeling less important, which is not ideal.
Which, incidentally, is probably why Dave is working on something for the lady-lovin'-ladies. Because he's a righteous dude, and wants to do right by the people who are already committed to playing the game. There's no economic driving force, there; it's purely an artistic one.
As you say, Beamdog doesn't have to do anything at all. There's no legal obligation to represent specific minorities.
Moral obligation, though... that's another matter. Because here's the thing: games, movies and TV series are still coming out on a regular basis that exclude gays and lesbians altogether. And while Beamdog isn't responsible for what other people do, they are contributing to the problem - intentionally or not - by perpetuating a trend that really should've been dealt with ages ago.
(It's been said, but I'll reiterate: we wouldn't even be having this conversation if the issue were racial rather than sexual.)
The problem with the "artistic freedom" argument is that artistic freedom has a price: creators are free to say and do as they please, but they must then be judged by what they say and do. You can't duck that while still claiming the aegis of creative expression.
Personally, I'm not willing to castigate Beamdog for this, because I recognize that having a bisexual character in this particular game at all was already a step in the right direction (and because someone - was it Trent Oster or Dave Gross? - said a lesbian character would be introduced shortly anyway). But I don't blame @ami for feeling excluded, because based on the information that's currently available for BG:EE? She has been excluded. I hope that changes, and that BG:EE (or BG2:EE) is able to offer her something so many other games (and films and TV shows and books) have refused to even consider.
By the way avoid call my name, you have absolutely no intent of develop an healthy discussion with me, you clearly intent to misuse anything i say to flame me. I don't like do discuss with stupid persons neither i have any interest in troll you atm, so don't take personal if i just stop of reply your posts.
Also, while you're right to point out that these games aren't required to add that content, you've overlooked the possibility that not adding that content sends a message too. It may not be a message the devs meant to send, but that's still part of the final outcome. This was something BioWare eventually understood with the Mass Effect series - omission can be a statement in and of itself.