@Kitteh_On_A_Cloud you are trying so hard to be offended it's simply ridiculous. shawne didn't direct his post at you as i recall, but if you need to leave then fine.
@Shandyr who said there is no distinction between someone who beats you or someone who denies you? physical violence is so low, it is not even discussed here, but you seem to imply that giving up civil rights as a thanks to people who disapprove of the worst that happens to us is somehow a good deal. what a bargain. slap or not, but questioning somebody's freedom after condemning violence is a spit in the face after a handshake. let me repeat- there is no compromise to equality. no substitute. no conditions. no partial solutions. ANYTHING less is not equality. and one more thing- will i tolerate your hypothetical person B? of course, i'm capable of accepting people have different opinions. will i accept them as correct. no!
@kamuizin i suggest you read my comments again. my stances did not suddenly became radical, i simply changed my wording as appropriate this late in discussion. i never said you are right, i acknowledged you have your own opinion. shall we take a a look at your hypocrisy? for starters, you act all offended and misunderstood and think of yourself as a minority in a GAY ROMANCE thread. wow.
you send us away from internet to do our "revolutionary" work elsewhere and yet you make polls to prove us wrong in hopes to produce results that will remove gay content since there is not enough gay people to produce a demand. all in the guise you support straight option because you enjoy it more. because support for straight and gay became somehow mutually exclusive. right. not to mention you first pretend the statistics and numbers are useless, but constantly bring them up for intimidation effect and after that fails, you try and make them work for you.
through relativisation you strive to prove that racism and homophobia are different, implying latter is less of an evil because they have different basis, even if the consequences of both are basically the same. and btw, yes, if you deny someone an equal opportunity or act offensively, no matter the basis (fat, ugly, old, young etc), you are a hater. what do you want or do not want to have sex with is all your business. no one is forcing you to sleep with a man to prove you are a LGBT supporter.
first- it doest matter if there are only 3 gay people in the world. quantity is not an excuse for a shitty treatment in society, thank you. second- LGBT romance are one of the most debated subjects here and on the other forums. despite the fact the straight option would get more votes for obvious reasons, you just created more publicity for the subject and indirectly promoting pandering to the (broadest in this case) audience you were badmouthing not a minute ago, where da2 was concerned.
and read my post again please- i did not say ANYWHERE not ONCE that soft argument is useless or cannot change people. i was saying that there cannot be middle road if you say you accept someone, no matter how nicely it is being said or sugarcoated. is that clear?
@Shandyr you are the one deciding there is no difference and further concluding they are the same. in spirit of your relativism i would suggest you are the one truly insulting people B equating them to people A. you basically claim- fish either live in salt or fresh water. therefore all the saltwater fish are the same and all the freshwater fish are the same. um, no.
i explained my point of view, which acknowledges the difference between them, but difference alone is not launching people B in the pro-gay sphere for some inexplicable reason. categories of "kinda pro-ish or kinda con-ish" are meaningless and absurd in this context. i'm glad for non-violence but like i said, i refuse to feel grateful for it.
@Shandyr: People who are genuine in their support don't withdraw it because a forum post hurts their feelings. I truly doubt anything of value is lost if certain people who claim to be "on the fence" (as if equality is something that can exist on a spectrum) decide to take their ball and go home.
I believe it's been confirmed that one of the new male NPCs will be available for romancing as a male PC, but not yet which one it is.
It has? Can you direct me to this confirmation? I was absolutely certain it would be the new female NPC who would be available to both genders (and was somewhat disappointed by it). I have not yet seen an official confirmation either way, so I would love to see one.
@Shandyr your understanding is your own subjective interpretation strictly tailored to support your greater goal of mass acceptance and tolerance. i explained myself clearly on this matter and will not continue to do so. people A,B,C or @ are free to read and feel (a bit too easily, it seems) insulted at their leisure. just in case, yet again- we are talking about equality. as soon as any conditions apply, the "=" sign turns to ">". in my opinion that is bad, because compromises in that regard are not acceptable. in your opinion that is ok. you act like we suggested people B should be torched because of their opinions. obviously not. but when the time comes and laws will be passed they will withhold support on some matters just like people A.
I believe it's been confirmed that one of the new male NPCs will be available for romancing as a male PC, but not yet which one it is.
It has? Can you direct me to this confirmation? I was absolutely certain it would be the new female NPC who would be available to both genders (and was somewhat disappointed by it). I have not yet seen an official confirmation either way, so I would love to see one.
hi! thank you for doing this, i registered just for this occasion (though i might stay an active member)! as for my question- can you tell which of the new npcs is the bisexual one? at least tell us his/her gender! My guess is the "wild" mage. ;D
DaveGross: Your guess is incorrect.
Source is a reddit ama Overhaul did about a month ago.
... in this thread all the arguments are presented, poetic, humane, radical and philosophical. if people are still indifferent or do not care, fine, those people will not likely participate in such discussions. and those that do, in the end IT IS ABOUT BEING PRO OR CON.
...
This is on page 28, i read again as you "suggested" and here is the result.
It's probally me that perceive those comments as radical maybe, who knows, if you say they're pretty reasonable...
Your reactionary behavior is ignorant dude, i NEVER asked for removal of gay content from the game in this thread, in my pool or in any other thread. A LOT of time ago i had my reservations about introduction of gay content, but after some talk with @LadyRhian i evaluate better the theme and changed my mind. The result of the pool i made will obvious not push away gay content, but if 80% of the votes are straight, you give the devs a base to know that 1/5 of their clients (that take activity in this forum) are interested in gay content and they can work with it.
Dude, racism IS different from homophobia, you don't even need to take my reasons for it, but it is. I never say that homossexual people aren't a minority, they are, neither i said that homo hater are right, they aren't, just that homo haters =/= racists. They differ in reasons, motivations and objective, the only similar theme that both share is prejudice and the fact that both are hate groups.
If i'm a hater cos i deny ugly and fat girls the right of date me, so yes i'm a hater for them cos i'm not a charity body that will date people for pity, this is even ridiculous but be as you wish.
first- it doest matter if there are only 3 gay people in the world. quantity is not an excuse for a shitty treatment in society, thank you.
Yes, it matter your first paragraph, not to be mistreated of course but to get specific content? It matter a lot, if we have 3 gays in the world (use this for any minority) why should the company develop general content to satisfy your interests, if there were only 3 people that like Baldur's Gate, there would not be an BG EE, just to you know.
Now about the pool:
So now numbers are a bad thing? When i told before that mathematic equalism isn't a good thing i get a fastly hash reply.
Ps: i'm not a sweet talk person and even @Shandyr knows that cos if i remember well i gave him some harsh comments in the past, but here he's trying to maintain civility, your attack on him wasn't unnexpected, history is just being repeated, cos a movment of hate in time comes to hate so much the people that try to argue about the needless of the object of the hate as the subject itself, after all, like you said,
@kamuizin, nice job on taking only the parts of sentences that support your claims and ignoring the rest of what i said.
i didn't ask you to show me where i take a radical stance, but rather that you show me how is it different from what i claimed previously in this whole thread. because i never said partial support is great, and this is what we are talking about now.
if you read AGAIN, carefully this time, you will notice we are not only talking about gay content in games, but also about general support of LGBT community. distinguish where i talk about rights in society and where i talk about inclusion in videogames. you will notice a difference. there is no compromise regarding that issue in real life. you support, or you dont, because idea of equality is in direct contradiction with any kind of different treatment. simple as that.
for games is a bit different and means that - "i totally support inclusion of gay romance option but only if they fix/do something else first..." IS NOT REALLY A SUPPORT. ok? you don't get to be loved by gays for your conditioned support. support means- "yes, we should have variety and LGBT people deserve at least one option among six others, just like female players deserve more options because they were deprived of choice in original. and yes, this should be included among other things, not instead of them."
because despite good will, what matters is the end result, how you act when comes a moment of decision, just like no matter what you say, you designed your poll to prove there is none or there is irrelevant demand for gay content. and i actually called you out on your claims that statistic is not a good thing, and a day later you design a poll to get a statistic. did it occur to you that this quasi-democratic approach would forever outvote the gay people, if we presume all straights vote straight and gay gay? in the end you would have 300 romanceable straight npc's. realistic indeed.
and where have i hated on shandyr? we have different opinions and we agreed we disagree in the end. you also mention civility but i have not launched any "what the fucks" at anyone, like you did on me a page ago.
and again- racism and homophobia have different roots and history as well as their focal point. they are different in this regard, i admit. happy? but their apparatus and CONSEQUENCES (denying integration into broad society and human rights) ARE THE SAME. HATE CRIME applies in both cases. they are both discrimination and discrimination is bad. m'kay? no matter what the basis (fat, ugly).
you not being attracted to someone "ugly" or "fat" is a different matter and it is completely nonsensical and offensive even, that you would bring that on a same level as systematic societal oppression. please.
Since this is a game that we all love and its considered one of the classic games, the creators should listen to the majority/minority of the players that dont want any homosexual romance in their game. Its that simple. Its very easy for the programmers to have a button to enable or disable homosexual content so both parties are happy and pleased. Its no discrimination at all. Simply since its a fictionary game everyone should play in a world that is the way we want it. In real life u cant be evil without ending up excecuted or for life in prison. In real life u cant avoid homosexuals. In games u can be evil and kill everyone so why not be able not to find any homosexuals at all? My opinion is if they dont respect us and give us an OFF, it will be discriminating towards us.
Ha, I was kind of hoping we were finally ready to move on past this issue. Oh, well. *smile* Don't worry, be happy! *leaves, smiling and singing happily*
And here we go again... Well at least this thread was on hold for 6 days... We couldn't have expected more...
@iasson It is your personal opinion to which you are entitled. But be prepared for the answers that will come...
Concerning your post: How about an additional option to turn off heterosexuality? For those who prefer it that way?
To say it in your words: "In real life u cant avoid [heterosexuals]. In games u can be evil and kill everyone so why not be able not to find any [heterosexuals] at all?"
if you are gonna use my words, dont get clever and change them.
It's really nice of you to ostracize a whole group of the population as if they're unwanted and shouldn't be there in real life. I feel tempted to perform a Godwin.
It's really nice of you to ostracize a whole group of the population as if they're unwanted and shouldn't be there in real life. I feel tempted to perform a Godwin.
You sir deserve a medal for being unable to separate real life and games and totally unable to read the whole comment before replying. In real life you have no choice. In games you do. You do things you cant do in the reality. You go to places that are not there. Give me a reason why not be able to live in the world of your like, whether right or wrong.
i.e. if you dont like heterosexual romances feel free to ask for an option to disable them.
Simply since its a fictionary game everyone should play in a world that is the way we want it. In real life u cant be evil without ending up excecuted or for life in prison. In real life u cant avoid homosexuals. In games u can be evil and kill everyone so why not be able not to find any homosexuals at all?
Sir, I did read your whole comment before replying. And participating in a discussion on a forum and writing something like the lines I quoted above is real life. There's real gay people reading what you really wrote and it's really offensive to write something like 'a world that's the way you want it' and implying a world you want is a world where you can avoid homosexuals. You don't write it explicitely in this context, but it implicitely deals out the message you want to avoid homosexuals in real life.
I do think if gay people read a line like the one quoted above, they feel ostracized and it wont be just because of how they are, but also because of how you chose your wording in above post. Words are not just about what's being written literally, words are also about evoking feelings and thoughts. And you're evoking bad things in this topic. Like people feeling ostracized.
Just like you can make out of the reply immediately after your post:
Ha, I was kind of hoping we were finally ready to move on past this issue. Oh, well. *smile* Don't worry, be happy! *leaves, smiling and singing happily*
You sir deserve a medal for being unable to separate real life and games
You'll have to share that medal, since you're comparing avoiding a romance with a gay video game character with a tree in my backyard.
Of course, the analogy is a complete failure, since the tree would be there whether I chose to see it or not, whereas the only way you'd ever see the gay content in BG:EE is if you went and triggered the romance yourself.
Give me a reason why not be able to live in the world of your like, whether right or wrong.
i.e. if you dont like heterosexual romances feel free to ask for an option to disable them.
How about this: it's not your world. You didn't make it, you don't control it. You inhabit it for the duration of your game, and so does every other person who plays BG:EE. They have as much right to it as you do.
Comments
@Shandyr who said there is no distinction between someone who beats you or someone who denies you? physical violence is so low, it is not even discussed here, but you seem to imply that giving up civil rights as a thanks to people who disapprove of the worst that happens to us is somehow a good deal. what a bargain.
slap or not, but questioning somebody's freedom after condemning violence is a spit in the face after a handshake.
let me repeat- there is no compromise to equality. no substitute. no conditions. no partial solutions. ANYTHING less is not equality. and one more thing- will i tolerate your hypothetical person B? of course, i'm capable of accepting people have different opinions. will i accept them as correct. no!
@kamuizin i suggest you read my comments again. my stances did not suddenly became radical, i simply changed my wording as appropriate this late in discussion. i never said you are right, i acknowledged you have your own opinion.
shall we take a a look at your hypocrisy? for starters, you act all offended and misunderstood and think of yourself as a minority in a GAY ROMANCE thread. wow.
you send us away from internet to do our "revolutionary" work elsewhere and yet you make polls to prove us wrong in hopes to produce results that will remove gay content since there is not enough gay people to produce a demand. all in the guise you support straight option because you enjoy it more. because support for straight and gay became somehow mutually exclusive. right.
not to mention you first pretend the statistics and numbers are useless, but constantly bring them up for intimidation effect and after that fails, you try and make them work for you.
through relativisation you strive to prove that racism and homophobia are different, implying latter is less of an evil because they have different basis, even if the consequences of both are basically the same. and btw, yes, if you deny someone an equal opportunity or act offensively, no matter the basis (fat, ugly, old, young etc), you are a hater. what do you want or do not want to have sex with is all your business. no one is forcing you to sleep with a man to prove you are a LGBT supporter.
first- it doest matter if there are only 3 gay people in the world. quantity is not an excuse for a shitty treatment in society, thank you.
second- LGBT romance are one of the most debated subjects here and on the other forums. despite the fact the straight option would get more votes for obvious reasons, you just created more publicity for the subject and indirectly promoting pandering to the (broadest in this case) audience you were badmouthing not a minute ago, where da2 was concerned.
and read my post again please- i did not say ANYWHERE not ONCE that soft argument is useless or cannot change people. i was saying that there cannot be middle road if you say you accept someone, no matter how nicely it is being said or sugarcoated. is that clear?
you basically claim- fish either live in salt or fresh water. therefore all the saltwater fish are the same and all the freshwater fish are the same.
um, no.
i explained my point of view, which acknowledges the difference between them, but difference alone is not launching people B in the pro-gay sphere for some inexplicable reason. categories of "kinda pro-ish or kinda con-ish" are meaningless and absurd in this context. i'm glad for non-violence but like i said, i refuse to feel grateful for it.
i explained myself clearly on this matter and will not continue to do so. people A,B,C or @ are free to read and feel (a bit too easily, it seems) insulted at their leisure.
just in case, yet again- we are talking about equality.
as soon as any conditions apply, the "=" sign turns to ">". in my opinion that is bad, because compromises in that regard are not acceptable. in your opinion that is ok.
you act like we suggested people B should be torched because of their opinions. obviously not. but when the time comes and laws will be passed they will withhold support on some matters just like people A.
It's probally me that perceive those comments as radical maybe, who knows, if you say they're pretty reasonable...
Your reactionary behavior is ignorant dude, i NEVER asked for removal of gay content from the game in this thread, in my pool or in any other thread. A LOT of time ago i had my reservations about introduction of gay content, but after some talk with @LadyRhian i evaluate better the theme and changed my mind. The result of the pool i made will obvious not push away gay content, but if 80% of the votes are straight, you give the devs a base to know that 1/5 of their clients (that take activity in this forum) are interested in gay content and they can work with it.
Dude, racism IS different from homophobia, you don't even need to take my reasons for it, but it is. I never say that homossexual people aren't a minority, they are, neither i said that homo hater are right, they aren't, just that homo haters =/= racists. They differ in reasons, motivations and objective, the only similar theme that both share is prejudice and the fact that both are hate groups.
If i'm a hater cos i deny ugly and fat girls the right of date me, so yes i'm a hater for them cos i'm not a charity body that will date people for pity, this is even ridiculous but be as you wish. Serious? It doesn't sound like that atm. Yes, it matter your first paragraph, not to be mistreated of course but to get specific content? It matter a lot, if we have 3 gays in the world (use this for any minority) why should the company develop general content to satisfy your interests, if there were only 3 people that like Baldur's Gate, there would not be an BG EE, just to you know.
Now about the pool:
So now numbers are a bad thing? When i told before that mathematic equalism isn't a good thing i get a fastly hash reply.
Ps: i'm not a sweet talk person and even @Shandyr knows that cos if i remember well i gave him some harsh comments in the past, but here he's trying to maintain civility, your attack on him wasn't unnexpected, history is just being repeated, cos a movment of hate in time comes to hate so much the people that try to argue about the needless of the object of the hate as the subject itself, after all, like you said, .
i didn't ask you to show me where i take a radical stance, but rather that you show me how is it different from what i claimed previously in this whole thread. because i never said partial support is great, and this is what we are talking about now.
if you read AGAIN, carefully this time, you will notice we are not only talking about gay content in games, but also about general support of LGBT community. distinguish where i talk about rights in society and where i talk about inclusion in videogames. you will notice a difference. there is no compromise regarding that issue in real life. you support, or you dont, because idea of equality is in direct contradiction with any kind of different treatment. simple as that.
for games is a bit different and means that - "i totally support inclusion of gay romance option but only if they fix/do something else first..." IS NOT REALLY A SUPPORT. ok?
you don't get to be loved by gays for your conditioned support.
support means- "yes, we should have variety and LGBT people deserve at least one option among six others, just like female players deserve more options because they were deprived of choice in original. and yes, this should be included among other things, not instead of them."
because despite good will, what matters is the end result, how you act when comes a moment of decision, just like no matter what you say, you designed your poll to prove there is none or there is irrelevant demand for gay content. and i actually called you out on your claims that statistic is not a good thing, and a day later you design a poll to get a statistic.
did it occur to you that this quasi-democratic approach would forever outvote the gay people, if we presume all straights vote straight and gay gay? in the end you would have 300 romanceable straight npc's. realistic indeed.
and where have i hated on shandyr? we have different opinions and we agreed we disagree in the end. you also mention civility but i have not launched any "what the fucks" at anyone, like you did on me a page ago.
and again- racism and homophobia have different roots and history as well as their focal point. they are different in this regard, i admit. happy? but their apparatus and CONSEQUENCES (denying integration into broad society and human rights) ARE THE SAME. HATE CRIME applies in both cases.
they are both discrimination and discrimination is bad. m'kay? no matter what the basis (fat, ugly).
you not being attracted to someone "ugly" or "fat" is a different matter and it is completely nonsensical and offensive even, that you would bring that on a same level as systematic societal oppression. please.
Its that simple. Its very easy for the programmers to have a button to enable or disable homosexual content so both parties are happy and pleased. Its no discrimination at all. Simply since its a fictionary game everyone should play in a world that is the way we want it. In real life u cant be evil without ending up excecuted or for life in prison. In real life u cant avoid homosexuals. In games u can be evil and kill everyone so why not be able not to find any homosexuals at all?
My opinion is if they dont respect us and give us an OFF, it will be discriminating towards us.
In real life you have no choice. In games you do. You do things you cant do in the reality.
You go to places that are not there. Give me a reason why not be able to live in the world of your like, whether right or wrong.
i.e. if you dont like heterosexual romances feel free to ask for an option to disable them.
I do think if gay people read a line like the one quoted above, they feel ostracized and it wont be just because of how they are, but also because of how you chose your wording in above post. Words are not just about what's being written literally, words are also about evoking feelings and thoughts. And you're evoking bad things in this topic. Like people feeling ostracized.
Just like you can make out of the reply immediately after your post: That's sarcasm, and justly so.
Of course, the analogy is a complete failure, since the tree would be there whether I chose to see it or not, whereas the only way you'd ever see the gay content in BG:EE is if you went and triggered the romance yourself. How about this: it's not your world. You didn't make it, you don't control it. You inhabit it for the duration of your game, and so does every other person who plays BG:EE. They have as much right to it as you do.