@Purudaya Because its and integral part of who they are in a predominantly straight world.
I know two gay man and neither for me nor for them their sexuality has ever been an "integral part of who they are". Luckily, because, if you want it to be considered as a non-issue, then it can not, by definition, an integral part of their identity, since it is not for straight people.
You might also give it a thought, why this, and every remotely recognicable fantasy world, has to be predominantly straight.
I wonder if that would be the case if you asked them? Isn't your sexuality an integral part of who YOU are? It is for me, and I'm just as straight and white and cisgender as the gamerbros.
Sexuality is part of identity regardless of your sexual orientation. We should not expect LGBT characters to be unidentifiable from straight ones unless romanced - if that were even remotely representative of the real world, we would know of a hell of a lot less gay people.
If those are reasons for bad reviews, then that is truly an injustice.
If a character or situation isn't to your liking you can avoid it. For example, I've been sending Khalid out on solo wolf hunting expeditions for years.
Having more flavor and opportunities for representations of alternative characters is only a good thing.
she's pernicious to trans inclusion. and for begging for positive reviews... it seems that they broke contract regardless of the reason.
then again, how will you come to abuse the people you dont' agree with? write a long post about it? that's what worked to get Tracer's pose removed from Overwatch... meanwhile an overweight mother disagreed and liked the pose and disagreed with the very Puritan and Christian like way it was suddenly removed.
your kind's response to her was "get over it" or "who cares". Yes, who cares indeed? I guess if there's no one to look at you when you're talking on a soap box. Don't worry, I'm sure the people in the south have a book burning and they are eager to welcome you. All things that go against your senses and sensibilites will be purged. But of course you'll call it justice. it's a book burning with me and reason as kindling.
"it's just a game" you'll say. It's not important.
then i guess your opponents have every right to do unto you what you do to them.
Thats a riot coming from someone who cherry-picks arguments and replies as hard as you do.
If you can show me where I've done so and haven't addressed it, please do.
All you need to do is go back to the 2 page of this thread, look to what you replied, look to what people replied to you and what you DID NOT reply to.
Its not that hard, please try to be intellectually honest of you demand it from others.
1) Yeah, I think most developers would agree Steam is a much bigger deal than gog.com. I'm not saying is better, I'm not saying is ideal, I'm just stating reality: gog is orders of magnitude less popular even for niche RPG games
2) Right you've quoted reviews that mostly criticize the writing of the game. Calling out a supposed fallacy doesn't invalidates the argument that the user thought it was forced in. You might disagree, that's valid. But you're implying that these reviews are mostly trolling about something that's not going on here. We have seen this in gamer gate time and time again: people insists on trying to discredit legitimate criticism with cherry picked, mostly irrelevant voices that do troll. What about the multiplayer issues? What about the lines being out character for a medieval inspired setting? What about the fact that even if you disagree with those views, there is no legitimate reason to call out people to "balance out" things you don't agree with politically?
It appears that in this case, what you point to as a criticism of writing quality, I consider a reactionary aversion to 3-4 lines spoken between Minsc and a queer cleric. A valid review of writing quality for an RPG would include discussing at least these major elements: namely, the main characters, factions, plot, and dialogue. Not just a minor character or a line spoken by the series' head injured comic relief.
Medieval inspired setting? o_O DnD has taken inspiration and monsters from many ancient cultures and mythologies. Besides which, Baldur's Gate has always had inconsistent accents and stylistic dialogue, even before the EEs. Didn't you wonder why there was faux-Shakespeare next to modern American speech?
You're here supporting people you politically agree with. How can you slam others for doing the same? A group you disagree with fights back. How can you complain?
You're mis-characterizing my argument here: while I do believe political views in the reviews have a right to exist, I keep repeating, throughout this thread, that I believe that this is not the main point of contention for most popular reviews and again most of them focus on technical issues. Now whenever or not you wanna weight in the impact of a few lines on your level of immersion is completely up to the individual. Sorry but you just can't claim "agenda!" immediately as soon as you see people mentioning it's not realistic for characters to act or speak a certain way and not in line with the original game. It's their subjective opinion and unless those users specifically call out a political agenda (which again, if you read my previous post most go out of their way to either call out how it is not) they're just people who find politically inclined material distasteful, in poor writing and detriment to their game experience.
Again that's like saying someone has a political agenda because they do not like the taste of vanilla ice cream. It is not implied, it's just their taste.
What this whole thing comes down to is bad writing and a bad attitude on the part of certain people on the dev team. Even Bioware has shown that you can have good LGBT characters like Zevran in DA:O. That was a character whose sexuality played a part in making him likable. Even Isabella was decent in the second game, which makes sense because they lifted her entire personality from Zevran and pasted it on a new character.
Contrast that with the mage in DA3, whose name I can't even remember because he was so forgettable. His entire storyline was "daddy didn't love me 'cause I'm GAY " That doesn't make them hatable, just flat and forgettable. It's bad writing that leads to poor character development, which can drag the overall story and atmosphere down.
Now, where I think the outrage comes from isn't anything within the game but the provocation on the part of certain dev members. From the vitriolic statements about inclusivity to the shots at GG and certain demographics of gamers, they eventually got people angry. I think the best thing to do would be to just take your foot off the gas and let things cool down.
Hi Trent. If you think writing your Forgotten Realms lore to further your agenda and impress Kotaku is a good idea, I don't think you deserve good reviews. Utterly disillusioned and disgusted with Beamdog, to be honest. Begging for positive reviews is also extremely unprofessional and frankly a bit pathetic, not to mention against Steam's TOS. Just my honest opinion. I don't think I'll be buying from Beamdog again.
I genuinely need people to explain to me their definition of "Agenda", because I think Oxford Dictionary is fooling me right now. Anyone mind doing that favour for me? @JonMarc could you perhaps?
EDIT: Looks like @Inconnu is just as confused. I hope we won't be perceived as "drones" because of how similar our replies are. Oh well.
but really. I'm more concerned with the legality of it all.
all the force old jokes and the like seem to violate the contract of staying with in the setting. it seems to be a breach of such an agreement.
isn't that lovely? someone should tell the original people who worked on this game you know, before beamdog goes please with crocodile tears?
You are already proven wrong in that Steam thread, so I don't see the point of you continuing the trolling here. You're just mad over a joke and Beamdog daring to acknowledge that transgendered people exist. The Forgotten Realms setting reflects real life cultures, and much of the settings and novels dealt with issues such as slavery and racism. But a transperson simply existing out of the closet is too "political" for you? LOL
FYI, Beamdog is consisted of much of the old Bioware crew, and even the old games are full of 20th century pop culture references. But keep sending those emails to WotC, it certainly shows how thin skinned Gamergaters really are.
Thats a riot coming from someone who cherry-picks arguments and replies as hard as you do.
If you can show me where I've done so and haven't addressed it, please do.
All you need to do is go back to the 2 page of this thread, look to what you replied, look to what people replied to you and what you DID NOT reply to.
Its not that hard, please try to be intellectually honest of you demand it from others.
Sorry man, I checked and I've replied to every person who quoted me on page 2. But if you want to go through everything I've written and try to find something I've missed, feel free I guess.
That said, do you know what intellectual dishonesty means? It's not about replying to every argument a person makes, but about representing your argument truthfully and consistently. I have written that reviews criticizing technical issues are valid, for example. My general argument has been that there are several negative reviews based solely on LGBTQ issues, and those that criticize "bad writing" are universally in opposition to the LGBTQ character as well. I have further argued that the negative reviews on steam - a minority - have been aggressively topvoted, which is plain to see.
I've written about all of this in the context of Trent Oster asking that people who liked the game express themselves in the form of a review and the hypocrites accusing him of trying to "manipulate" the process. That's it. Denying the gamergate component in this and pretending that it's all just "technical issues" and "bad writing" is fundamentally dishonest.
I genuinely need people to explain to me their definition of "Agenda", because I think Oxford Dictionary is fooling me right now. Anyone mind doing that favour for me? @JonMarc could you perhaps?
EDIT: Looks like @Inconnu is just as confused. I hope we won't be perceived as "drones" because of how similar our replies are. Oh well.
Count me in as well... No idea exactly what this agenda is... Unless they just think this will make everyone want to become trans-gender
I genuinely need people to explain to me their definition of "Agenda", because I think Oxford Dictionary is fooling me right now. Anyone mind doing that favour for me? @JonMarc could you perhaps?
EDIT: Looks like @Inconnu is just as confused. I hope we won't be perceived as "drones" because of how similar our replies are. Oh well.
Have some kind of belief that people don't share. Suddenly you get some power and use it to force that belief into those who don't share it. That's having an agenda, more explicit, it's called being an agenda pusher, like the writer from this "expansion"
That would be a more convincing argument if it weren't used for every single LGBT character who has ever appeared in a goddamn RPG. Dorian Pavus was forced. Steve Cortez was forced. Liara T'Soni was forced. Silk Fox was forced. Dorn il-Khan and Hexxat were forced. Undyne and Alphys were forced. Athena and Janey Springs were forced.
When the same "criticism" is applied across the board, you can absolutely call its authenticity into question.
So that means that the same criticism of bigotry across the board for people complaining about bad writing needs to be called into question right?
Sexism and racism are also very common criticisms across the board, so much so that the original BG is now being called sexist. We should definitely call the authenticity of that criticism into question right?
Thats a riot coming from someone who cherry-picks arguments and replies as hard as you do.
If you can show me where I've done so and haven't addressed it, please do.
All you need to do is go back to the 2 page of this thread, look to what you replied, look to what people replied to you and what you DID NOT reply to.
Its not that hard, please try to be intellectually honest of you demand it from others.
Sorry man, I checked and I've replied to every person who quoted me on page 2. But if you want to go through everything I've written and try to find something I've missed, feel free I guess.
That said, do you know what intellectual dishonesty means? It's not about replying to every argument a person makes, but about representing your argument truthfully and consistently. I have written that reviews criticizing technical issues are valid, for example. My general argument has been that there are several negative reviews based solely on LGBTQ issues, and those that criticize "bad writing" are universally in opposition to the LGBTQ character as well. I have further argued that the negative reviews on steam - a minority - have been aggressively topvoted, which is plain to see.
I've written about all of this in the context of Trent Oster asking that people who liked the game express themselves in the form of a review and the hypocrites accusing him of trying to "manipulate" the process. That's it. Denying the gamergate component in this and pretending that it's all just "technical issues" and "bad writing" is fundamentally dishonest.
You need to stop seeing just the Gamergate component in this. You need to also see that there are bugs and people are complaining about them. There is also bad writing, and people are complaining about it. Take off your "gamergate perspectacles" and see that people are talking about actual problems with the game.
I genuinely need people to explain to me their definition of "Agenda", because I think Oxford Dictionary is fooling me right now. Anyone mind doing that favour for me? @JonMarc could you perhaps?
EDIT: Looks like @Inconnu is just as confused. I hope we won't be perceived as "drones" because of how similar our replies are. Oh well.
Have some kind of belief that people don't share. Suddenly you get some power and use it to force that belief into those who don't share it. That's having an agenda, more explicit, it's called being an agenda pusher, like the writer from this "expansion"
Nothing is forced. This is a short optional dialogue that doesn't need to be accessed to use the character's shop. Don't like it? Don't talk to her about it. Ignore or kill her if you want. Won't affect your game at all. Problem solved.
Thats a riot coming from someone who cherry-picks arguments and replies as hard as you do.
If you can show me where I've done so and haven't addressed it, please do.
All you need to do is go back to the 2 page of this thread, look to what you replied, look to what people replied to you and what you DID NOT reply to.
Its not that hard, please try to be intellectually honest of you demand it from others.
Sorry man, I checked and I've replied to every person who quoted me on page 2. But if you want to go through everything I've written and try to find something I've missed, feel free I guess.
That said, do you know what intellectual dishonesty means? It's not about replying to every argument a person makes, but about representing your argument truthfully and consistently. I have written that reviews criticizing technical issues are valid, for example. My general argument has been that there are several negative reviews based solely on LGBTQ issues, and those that criticize "bad writing" are universally in opposition to the LGBTQ character as well. I have further argued that the negative reviews on steam - a minority - have been aggressively topvoted, which is plain to see.
I've written about all of this in the context of Trent Oster asking that people who liked the game express themselves in the form of a review and the hypocrites accusing him of trying to "manipulate" the process. That's it. Denying the gamergate component in this and pretending that it's all just "technical issues" and "bad writing" is fundamentally dishonest.
Again, look at the OP on this thread: that's more manipulative of the system, at the very least as manipulative. Second, do you care to address my previous post in which I've shown the first 10 reviews and how, the most popular ones are actually mostly not trolling at all or at least mixed or with valid criticism regardless of your views on the political motivations?
Either your description is not accurate or the agenda of the evil GG people is highly ineffective as the most reasonable, yet critical of reviews are at the very top in popularity.
I genuinely need people to explain to me their definition of "Agenda", because I think Oxford Dictionary is fooling me right now. Anyone mind doing that favour for me? @JonMarc could you perhaps?
EDIT: Looks like @Inconnu is just as confused. I hope we won't be perceived as "drones" because of how similar our replies are. Oh well.
Have some kind of belief that people don't share. Suddenly you get some power and use it to force that belief into those who don't share it. That's having an agenda, more explicit, it's called being an agenda pusher, like the writer from this "expansion"
Nothing is forced. This is a short optional dialogue that doesn't need to be accessed to use the character's shop. Don't like it? Don't talk to her about it. Ignore or kill her if you want. Won't affect your game at all. Problem solved.
"nothing is forced"
Hello fellow, what is you n-
HAVE YOU SEEN MY TRANS-NESS? OBVIOUSLY NOT, SO I'LL TELL YOU ABOUT IT, THEN MY NAME
"Great story!" x1 "Great story, tell me about X" x2 "Great story, I have to go" x3
You can even threaten random civilians if you are feeling it, and yet you can't even threaten this little fella because that is what's called forced. You can kill him/her/whatever, sure, and no cons in it. At this point I believe the devs just forgot about those repercussions and will like to change it later.
As @Inconnu said she's a minor NPC, one you never have to approach if you prefer. Why make such a fuss about her?
I, at least, was trying to point out what a complete mess her writing and the hamfistedness of approach is. I just hope that Amber can learn and see that she is not even handling diversity and inclusiveness well.
@Dimitriid I think @Purudaya is trying to say (keep in mind I have no clue who these GGers are) that the people from GamersGate are purposely tanking positive reviews down even if they're valid. He's not arguing the most upvoted negative reviews are wrong (I think). He's claiming the positive, valid, reasonably objective ones are drowned to make the game look like it's nothing but a bugfest.
As @Inconnu said she's a minor NPC, one you never have to approach if you prefer. Why make such a fuss about her?
I, at least, was trying to point out what a complete mess her writing and the hamfistedness of approach is. I just hope that Amber can learn and see that she is not even handling diversity and inclusiveness well.
That's reasonable. I've read your comments, I just don't understand all the people, who are demonizing the NPC in such a manner as if reading her dialogue caused them to lose their closest ones. (at least that's how it feels like)
@Dimitriid I think @Purudaya is trying to say (keep in mind I have no clue who these GGers are) that the people from GamersGate are purposely tanking positive reviews down even if they're valid. He's not arguing the most upvoted negative reviews are wrong (I think). He's claiming the positive, valid, reasonably objective ones are drowned to make the game look like it's nothing but a bugfest.
As @Inconnu said she's a minor NPC, one you never have to approach if you prefer. Why make such a fuss about her?
I, at least, was trying to point out what a complete mess her writing and the hamfistedness of approach is. I just hope that Amber can learn and see that she is not even handling diversity and inclusiveness well.
That's reasonable. I've read your comments, I just don't understand all the people, who are demonizing the NPC in such a manner as if reading her dialogue caused them to lose their closest ones. (at least that's how it feels like)
Some people, I assume, feel like the BG games are their childhood and could even be their loved ones. They might see the inclusion of this stuff and Amber calling the games racist and seeming to see herself as above everyone who disagrees with her as some sort of desecration of the games they love.
@Dimitriid I think @Purudaya is trying to say (keep in mind I have no clue who these GGers are) that the people from GamersGate are purposely tanking positive reviews down even if they're valid. He's not arguing the most upvoted negative reviews are wrong (I think). He's claiming the positive, valid, reasonably objective ones are drowned to make the game look like it's nothing but a bugfest.
I may be wrong though.
That cannot be shown to be truth at all. I choose not to concern myself with what basically amounts to conspiracy theories, instead I must adhere to Occam's razor here: the most popular criticism is that there are definitively bugs in the game and technical issues with the multiplayer aspect. Yet the characterization from the original post here is highly misleading: implying that politically motivated reviews are having a significant impact when we can again, demonstrably show that this is just not accurate at all.
basically, the point is (and i saw it in many games) how pathetic are the people that know for the technical side that in any game that patches make it work even witcher 3 had horrible gamebreaking bugs(and continue had) some people in this forum lives in the past they dont want improvements and they are cynical i think you should have known from the very start that this is the kind of people you are treating. aside that i think that you did a great job and i hope that you keep on doing games. Sex is a must in new games because it manages the new era enviroment and people who denied this are just blind or ignorant. im shoked for this people who rates 0 in games they are just manipulating that crap of rating system, if the game has bad writing in certain points (i dont agree this) and have bugs (that are solvable). deserv at least a 5 or 4 i think that art and design is good for everyone nobody point this.
Thats a riot coming from someone who cherry-picks arguments and replies as hard as you do.
If you can show me where I've done so and haven't addressed it, please do.
All you need to do is go back to the 2 page of this thread, look to what you replied, look to what people replied to you and what you DID NOT reply to.
Its not that hard, please try to be intellectually honest of you demand it from others.
Sorry man, I checked and I've replied to every person who quoted me on page 2. But if you want to go through everything I've written and try to find something I've missed, feel free I guess.
That said, do you know what intellectual dishonesty means? It's not about replying to every argument a person makes, but about representing your argument truthfully and consistently. I have written that reviews criticizing technical issues are valid, for example. My general argument has been that there are several negative reviews based solely on LGBTQ issues, and those that criticize "bad writing" are universally in opposition to the LGBTQ character as well. I have further argued that the negative reviews on steam - a minority - have been aggressively topvoted, which is plain to see.
I've written about all of this in the context of Trent Oster asking that people who liked the game express themselves in the form of a review and the hypocrites accusing him of trying to "manipulate" the process. That's it. Denying the gamergate component in this and pretending that it's all just "technical issues" and "bad writing" is fundamentally dishonest.
Again, look at the OP on this thread: that's more manipulative of the system, at the very least as manipulative. Second, do you care to address my previous post in which I've shown the first 10 reviews and how, the most popular ones are actually mostly not trolling at all or at least mixed or with valid criticism regardless of your views on the political motivations?
Either your description is not accurate or the agenda of the evil GG people is highly ineffective as the most reasonable, yet critical of reviews are at the very top in popularity.
You skipped my post going though the review content, and now I'm supposed to go through yours and refute it point by point?
Did you see the one that called trans people freaks and Amber Scott a c*nt? It's since been removed, but I can promise you it wasn't about technical issues.
I, at least, was trying to point out what a complete mess her writing and the hamfistedness of approach is. I just hope that Amber can learn and see that she is not even handling diversity and inclusiveness well.
From what I know and have seen of Amber, I truly, strongly dislike her. I mean no offense to her, but things are how they are. I don't get on well with others in the first place, thus the name.
Furthermore, because a grasp of the English language is not to be found here it seems, let me explain to you why this is not an Agenda.
It has no purpose. There is no quest, there is nothing to be done about it, it is simply there. I went an entire playthrough without even knowing that she was a he. I wonder, how many of you complaining about this even knew of its existence until the debacle here in the forums?
Therein lies the problem. The minority, vocal as it is, snowballs through many factors, including but not limited to ignorance. I implore ALL of you, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, to go read the entire dialogue before you post again on here.
I can not control you, of course, and all I can do is implore.
Comments
Sexuality is part of identity regardless of your sexual orientation. We should not expect LGBT characters to be unidentifiable from straight ones unless romanced - if that were even remotely representative of the real world, we would know of a hell of a lot less gay people.
https://steamcommunity.com/app/228280/discussions/0/371918937271813341/?tscn=1459713798 also look at this discussion... someone like you really should do their homework.
she's pernicious to trans inclusion. and for begging for positive reviews... it seems that they broke contract regardless of the reason.
then again, how will you come to abuse the people you dont' agree with? write a long post about it? that's what worked to get Tracer's pose removed from Overwatch... meanwhile an overweight mother disagreed and liked the pose and disagreed with the very Puritan and Christian like way it was suddenly removed.
your kind's response to her was "get over it" or "who cares". Yes, who cares indeed? I guess if there's no one to look at you when you're talking on a soap box. Don't worry, I'm sure the people in the south have a book burning and they are eager to welcome you. All things that go against your senses and sensibilites will be purged. But of course you'll call it justice. it's a book burning with me and reason as kindling.
"it's just a game" you'll say. It's not important.
then i guess your opponents have every right to do unto you what you do to them.
Its not that hard, please try to be intellectually honest of you demand it from others.
Again that's like saying someone has a political agenda because they do not like the taste of vanilla ice cream. It is not implied, it's just their taste.
Contrast that with the mage in DA3, whose name I can't even remember because he was so forgettable. His entire storyline was "daddy didn't love me 'cause I'm GAY
Now, where I think the outrage comes from isn't anything within the game but the provocation on the part of certain dev members. From the vitriolic statements about inclusivity to the shots at GG and certain demographics of gamers, they eventually got people angry. I think the best thing to do would be to just take your foot off the gas and let things cool down.
EDIT: Looks like @Inconnu is just as confused. I hope we won't be perceived as "drones" because of how similar our replies are. Oh well.
You are already proven wrong in that Steam thread, so I don't see the point of you continuing the trolling here. You're just mad over a joke and Beamdog daring to acknowledge that transgendered people exist. The Forgotten Realms setting reflects real life cultures, and much of the settings and novels dealt with issues such as slavery and racism. But a transperson simply existing out of the closet is too "political" for you? LOL
FYI, Beamdog is consisted of much of the old Bioware crew, and even the old games are full of 20th century pop culture references. But keep sending those emails to WotC, it certainly shows how thin skinned Gamergaters really are.
That said, do you know what intellectual dishonesty means? It's not about replying to every argument a person makes, but about representing your argument truthfully and consistently. I have written that reviews criticizing technical issues are valid, for example. My general argument has been that there are several negative reviews based solely on LGBTQ issues, and those that criticize "bad writing" are universally in opposition to the LGBTQ character as well. I have further argued that the negative reviews on steam - a minority - have been aggressively topvoted, which is plain to see.
I've written about all of this in the context of Trent Oster asking that people who liked the game express themselves in the form of a review and the hypocrites accusing him of trying to "manipulate" the process. That's it. Denying the gamergate component in this and pretending that it's all just "technical issues" and "bad writing" is fundamentally dishonest.
Sexism and racism are also very common criticisms across the board, so much so that the original BG is now being called sexist. We should definitely call the authenticity of that criticism into question right?
Either your description is not accurate or the agenda of the evil GG people is highly ineffective as the most reasonable, yet critical of reviews are at the very top in popularity.
Hello fellow, what is you n-
HAVE YOU SEEN MY TRANS-NESS? OBVIOUSLY NOT, SO I'LL TELL YOU ABOUT IT, THEN MY NAME
"Great story!" x1
"Great story, tell me about X" x2
"Great story, I have to go" x3
You can even threaten random civilians if you are feeling it, and yet you can't even threaten this little fella because that is what's called forced. You can kill him/her/whatever, sure, and no cons in it. At this point I believe the devs just forgot about those repercussions and will like to change it later.
I may be wrong though.
EDIT: That's reasonable. I've read your comments, I just don't understand all the people, who are demonizing the NPC in such a manner as if reading her dialogue caused them to lose their closest ones. (at least that's how it feels like)
I feel like this is going to be a new page in Anita Sarkeesian's book
Did you see the one that called trans people freaks and Amber Scott a c*nt? It's since been removed, but I can promise you it wasn't about technical issues.
Furthermore, because a grasp of the English language is not to be found here it seems, let me explain to you why this is not an Agenda.
It has no purpose. There is no quest, there is nothing to be done about it, it is simply there. I went an entire playthrough without even knowing that she was a he. I wonder, how many of you complaining about this even knew of its existence until the debacle here in the forums?
Therein lies the problem. The minority, vocal as it is, snowballs through many factors, including but not limited to ignorance. I implore ALL of you, regardless of which side of the fence you are on, to go read the entire dialogue before you post again on here.
I can not control you, of course, and all I can do is implore.