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What would you like to see done (if anything) about Mizhena

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  • rashkaerashkae Member Posts: 150
    Anyone tried talking to her with garter of gender changing in inventory? Seems like a great opportunity for a Golden pantaloons style easter egg quest for anyone who carried it over.

    cdxNonnahswriterrorikonBlunderingFool
  • RanceSamaRanceSama Member Posts: 21
    Option 3. Make that quest finding the Girdle of M/F so her change is full since it's possible

    cdxFinneousPJ
  • TheGlenTheGlen Member Posts: 10
    cdx said:

    A lot has been said on the topic in many threads but maybe we could try to quantify the feedback a little bit? Also, I imagine detailed suggestions / elaboration would be useful.

    If you are unhappy about Mizhena, what would you like to see done and how to go about it? Even if you aren't very interested in the topic, what do you think would be the best course of action?

    Fiach said:

    Leave it as it is, spend the money for any changes on donut seats for the butt hurt whingers.

    Next they will want the sex change belt from BG to be removed.

    The belt being removed already happened in the table top game. Paizo even apologized for it. Doesn't change the fact Edwin's side quest and the resulting backfire is still one of the funniest moments in the game.

  • ConvergeConverge Member Posts: 3
    I don't think there's any reason to change anything about such a small encounter. There are many anachronistic encounters in BG1. I personally prefer BG2 or especially PS:T with a more serious tone but this is an expansion to BG1 after all.

    I think the only thing that needs to be done, and should have been done right away, is to draft some kind of generic placating PR statement. Not sure if it will be enough now that some Beamdog employees are having their ill timed comments and tweets amplified around the internet.

    Any successful business has to be careful about the things they say around the launch of a product. As someone who really wants more Infinity Engine games, it's depressing to see Beamdog bring in talent like Brent Knowles and David Gaider only to mismanage the PR aspect of the SoD launch.

    cdx
  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    I think they should get this thoughtful well spoken person "PARIS" at 25 minute - to do the voice in the an English accent then have Minsc get confused and ask a rude question - or maybe have Minsc approach her and say something about a witch duty- he is filthy like that in BG2 and then have Paris say something like well I am attracted to X although I appear to be Y then Minsc can talk even more rude baffled Smack. On the other hand if you have lecherous Edwin who was already dirty smack talking with Viconna in BG 2 or the new Character of DOrn who is of course violent and a romance option you could have them utter dirty things to Paris err I mean Mizhena - Mizhena could say some kind of sensitive things and then the character would have the option to say:

    "You are a beautiful soul inside Mizhena. Pardon my companions lecherous lust. He is foolish and lacks the wisdom and charisma you possess." Perhaps we can be friends- I like your brave spirit."

    "Mizhena you are confused. You should find a high mage to set your gender rightly and then return here so this sort of unwanted lovemaking is not pressed on you anon. We will trouble you no more and wish you well in your outcomes."

    "Mizhena you are a weak, warped, and broken priest. I care nothing for you but the passing plaything you might be for my companion's exercise. Give them what they desire or I will use my Heroic influence to destroy your place with the Flaming Fist."

    I am sure Paris can impromptu some real life experience response and won't even have to tap a thespian role play feeling.




  • SixheadeddogSixheadeddog Member Posts: 188
    cdx said:

    JRRN said:

    An option to cure her of her insanity would be nice.

    I see where this came from, but it actually fits quite well for the mocking option of approving/indifferent/mocking replies. It seems appropriate for an evil PC (Edwin type) playthrough. Although, I imagine there should be more interesting or evil-funny options.
    lol Edwin has NO firm leg to stand on here.

    [Deleted User]rorikon
  • the_sexteinthe_sextein Member Posts: 711
    I think they should replace her with noober the 3rd. He just walks around and constantly asks you questions about weather you have ever heard of a transgender person before. Each question he asks, you lose a hitpoint. This makes it clear to the player that they should move on with the game.

  • Son_of_ImoenSon_of_Imoen Member Posts: 1,781
    I do think it is a bad idea to change a game because of a controversy - there seems to be a huge lobby of people downvoting the game on reviews for it having a transgender person in it - though criticisms about the character being too shallow or being portrayed too uni-dimensional seem valid (but the old game was full of one-dimensional NPC's as well). I wouldn't want to give the haters a victory by them being granted a victory, which may lead to more of these (orchestrated?) attacks.

    However, what I would like to see is a more fleshed-out story to Mizhena. There's been many suggestions in the thread "https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50420/my-thoughts-on-mizhena-as-a-transgender-person-myself#latest" of how the wish to be someone of the other sex than the one you are born with can lead to interesting storylines. And the rebuke it wouldn't be a problem at all because there's a gender-changing belt doesn't hold up to the reality of an ordinary NPC's life: people who are just regular soldiers or have another ordinary profession, won't have the means to buy a magic item or the time to go off adventuring (however, giving Mizhena the change to start adventuring with Charname's party would be wonderful).

    Giving Mizhena the change to become the woman she wants to be with a side-quest, getting to know more about her after winning her trust instead of just straight away in the first conversation (just like some lovely people on this forum also didn't come out for their transsexuality until the need was felt).

    And if Beamdog doesn't do it, I hope a modder will step forth and make an Enhanced Mizhena mod.

    *edit: all this with the disclaimer that I haven't progressed far enough in the story yet to venture forth from the city and meet Mizhena.

    prem0nitioncdxGenderNihilismGirdle
  • KhamacKhamac Member Posts: 10
    1-2-3 are ok. If Beamdog intends to rewrite, I think they should give her a unique armor for Boo =)) and an achievement like "The follower of Corellon Larethian".

    cdx
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Beamdog please create Boo Armor DLC.

    VirelaiGenderNihilismGirdle
  • MeraMera Member Posts: 110
    Would have gone for option 1 but trans people have openly said on this forums that they felt the character was poorly written so 2 or 3 could also be good, so Ms Scott can take that as an opportunity to hone her writing skills.

    cdxGenderNihilismGirdle
  • DillicDillic Member Posts: 16
    An option to mock "her" if you're playing a jerk in addition to the good options that are already there. There's usually a good and bad option for most NPCs.

    That's about all you can do to fix her.

    Removing isn't the answer.

    cdxsemiticgod
  • ArcanonArcanon Member Posts: 3
    Hi,

    [HS]First of all I couldn't log in with the beamdog account I bought the 3 games with. Do I need to link them or anything ? Moving on...[/HS]

    I was really expecting this game and the BG3 I hoped would follow (this hope is pretty much dead).
    I chose "improve the writing" even if I care nothing about this particular new character. It doesn't offend me in any way and if it did I would just kill him/her, loot and move on (Khalid can testify). That being said an improved version by someone who takes the character to heart can make the game better as a whole. More content is always good and if some players are interrested then all the better.

    Honestly this particular point might have light the fire of controversy but it is Beamdog themselves who spread it all over town.

    What I think Beamdog should do should have done:
    - Not shipping once again a buggy game. The two Enhanced edition were a pain before patching. And it gave Beamdog a sloppy (but deserved) reputation at the time. Dragonspear was your shot at proving you learned your lesson and made the new game as much a great experience as the patched enhanced is. We will have a great gaming experience, but as usual we'll have to wait the patch for things to work as they should.

    - Hire a competent Marketing/PR manager. What you did to the franchise in the way of communication is almost criminal. I'll give to Amber that BG original stance has its faults. And being the target of an internet mob must be really an unpleasant thing. But the way you fed the troll with "then too bad" and "I'll keep writing SJW games"(being French I didn't know this expression before, had to google it :p) was childish at best.
    Then asking for reviews, banning people etc... Why could you not just let it blow over ? No you had to confront internet trolls in a war NOBODY can win. You put the baldur's gate licence into this mess : not with a character, the writing or even the bugs, but with your attitude and commication.

    On a side note. The writing : the quality is subjective. I don't dislike it but would have love something more choices and less "modernism" is the way the npc talk. It is just more immersive ^^
    Overall still happy to have new content and loving the new interface ! Thank you guys for giving Baldur's Gate a new and improved version. I expect this "crisis" to blow over in a few days and hopefully the game (and his developpers) can get the quality review they really deserve.

    cdx
  • MirandelMirandel Member Posts: 518
    Do not think the characte5r needs changes, but addition of a couple lines about that beloved

    I do think it is a bad idea to change a game because of a controversy - there seems to be a huge lobby of people downvoting the game on reviews for it having a transgender person in it - though criticisms about the character being too shallow or being portrayed too uni-dimensional seem valid (but the old game was full of one-dimensional NPC's as well). I wouldn't want to give the haters a victory by them being granted a victory, which may lead to more of these (orchestrated?) attacks.

    However, what I would like to see is a more fleshed-out story to Mizhena. There's been many suggestions in the thread "https://forums.beamdog.com/discussion/50420/my-thoughts-on-mizhena-as-a-transgender-person-myself#latest" of how the wish to be someone of the other sex than the one you are born with can lead to interesting storylines. And the rebuke it wouldn't be a problem at all because there's a gender-changing belt doesn't hold up to the reality of an ordinary NPC's life: people who are just regular soldiers or have another ordinary profession, won't have the means to buy a magic item or the time to go off adventuring (however, giving Mizhena the change to start adventuring with Charname's party would be wonderful).

    Giving Mizhena the change to become the woman she wants to be with a side-quest, getting to know more about her after winning her trust instead of just straight away in the first conversation (just like some lovely people on this forum also didn't come out for their transsexuality until the need was felt).

    And if Beamdog doesn't do it, I hope a modder will step forth and make an Enhanced Mizhena mod.

    *edit: all this with the disclaimer that I haven't progressed far enough in the story yet to venture forth from the city and meet Mizhena.

    All good ideas, though I think the ability for an evil party to say something appropriate to them must be added as well. After all Dorn does not appreciate a bit that "sex-change belt" applied to him, he could comment about craziness or weakness of one wanting to use it.

    cdx
  • PhælinPhælin Member Posts: 316
    I would like to react in more ways, like...

    1. How nice to meet you!!! [benevolent]
    2. Don't care. [stoic]
    3. Get lost, wretch! [aggressive]
    4. Oh gods, NOW what? [passionate]
    5. Die, abnormal creature! [cruel]
    6. Now I've seen everything... [clever]

    cdxXzarSo_LoWsemiticgod
  • BlunderingFoolBlunderingFool Member Posts: 1
    edited April 2016
    I'm not the biggest person on in-universe knowledge but I'd like to point out one little thing.

    Girdle of fem/mas-culinity.

    There would be no "trans people" (Stupid term in itself, I might add, but that's a different argument.) in this universe when we have magic! I don't even know of any that exist in the 'native' DnD universe.

    Yes it was played for laughs as a cursed item but you still ignored the pre-existing material to insert your own agenda into the universe. There was also that one rather funny quest in BG2 but again, played for laughs.

    This character is nether played for laughs nor fleshed out, they are poorly thought out and a waste of creative time. (And I say time, not talent, because this is a character whom had non put into their actual writing in the first place.)

    Here's something the author should learn, characters do not push agendas, their actions do. shoddy work like this says you based a character around a single concept and put zero effort into them. Know who else does that? Fanfiction writers, and that woman who penned Twilight!

    As well, let's not forget other instances of poor writing, such as Corwin and her daughter with one-sided reactions and very poorly placed plot points, up to the point of female PCs being propositioned on the spot for no apparent reason. I'm sorry, this area of writing DOES seem to be a Mary-sue fanfic, my mistake! How silly of me to not notice.

    Such poor work has no place in a commercial game.

    Post edited by BlunderingFool on
    prem0nition
  • KhamacKhamac Member Posts: 10
    mega wave of 1 post mob attacking the castle

  • MahareMahare Member Posts: 1
    I would want to see the character treated just like any other character. Most characters, you can be snarky to, you can even be downright hostile to, but it appears with this one your dialogue options are limited to benevolent or neutral, which because of that helps to single the character out.

    The writing should be organic, and as it is in the continuity of the Baldur's Gate series, should have a feel akin to those games. I have absolutely no issue with the character in concept, but as written there are issues that make her feel out of place. Having been spoiled by LGBT characters from Dragon Age and from Fallout: New Vegas, I guess I have been spoiled on how you can smoothly integrate LGBT issues into the game.

    Now, I haven't played the game, so seeing just that one screenshot going around, I can really just comment that more response options are needed. If the character exists for the sole purpose of "we need a trans character in the game", that's not doing the character justice. There should be more to her than that.

    There's my two copper pieces anyways, take them as you will.

    prem0nitioncdxGenderNihilismGirdle
  • ajwzajwz Member Posts: 4,122
    nakti said:

    Get David Warner to record her/his lines in a girly voice. He's immune to criticism, problem solved.

    actually I'm pretty sure he voiced neera

  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Hello friends. I would like to point out in case people are not aware that there is indeed more to this character than just that one conversation. She is involved in two questlines and has a pretty funny dialogue path as well. Thank you for listening.

    GenderNihilismGirdle
  • SilverstarSilverstar Member Posts: 2,204
    ajwz said:

    nakti said:

    Get David Warner to record her/his lines in a girly voice. He's immune to criticism, problem solved.

    actually I'm pretty sure he voiced neera
    Nicola Elbro, according to imdb. I wouldn't have been surprised though, good voice actors often have incredible range, and Warner is most definitely a good voice actor.

  • FeilakasFeilakas Member Posts: 49
    First off, let me stress out that I have NOT yet purchased the expansion and that my experience is based on gameplay VIDEOS and dialog screenshots. This limited but accurate representation of the presentation and WRITING involved is what my following comments are a reflection of.

    With that said, I am saddened to say that I found said presentation to be lacking and the writing to be on the shallow end and, most of all, displaying a profound lack of understanding of the source material, the above character being an excellent example of what I mean.


    First of all, the very concept of a transgender person (not crossdressing) is completely at odds with the game's universe. It's a fantasy world where being a shaman is the pinnacle of modern medicine and as such a gender-reassignment surgery is a tough pill to swallow.

    Then there's the very first player impression, the experience being beyond jarring in that the developer used what appeared to be a "normal" female voice for the introduction line and switched to an effeminate "male" voice for the "revelation" line, making it feel like an after-through or sth someone "patched" in at the last minute without anyone else noticing.

    And then of course there's the part that the introduction of the character's sexuality is just plain BAD writing where an especially intimate personal information is divulged point-blank to a complete stranger who only asked you about your NAME.


    Now, what made all of this even worse for me was the realization that the writers in question were so focused on ticking this box, forcefully putting it in the game that they completely disregarded a narrative device which already was in the original game that would have convincingly reconciled all of the above and made PERFECT sense to use (further strengthening the distinct impression that they simply didn't have a good enough grasp of the source material).


    You might have guessed it, I'm talking about the "Girdle of Masculinity/Femininity".


    This device can provide a magical method for the gender reassignment (thus reconciling the world with the nature of the individual) and is a much more natural narrative vessel for the revelation.


    Consider this:
    If I were asked to introduce a Trans-gender character I would have opted to use a Lore Check and identify that said NPC was wearing the accursed girdle and then I'd have the party comment on that. To make it even more accessible I would have made the check auto-succeed if the party had already come across said item in the original game.


    To take it a step further, I would have probably been tempted to take this opportunity and make him/her a recruitable party member instead which by default wore the girdle.

    Then, possibly after checking the inventory and seeing that the character was wearing the girdle, I would have made it so the game triggered a conversation where either the Bhaalspawn or another party member would commend on the girdle and offer to have it removed, thus prompting said character reluctantly revealing that wearing the cursed item was intentional and indeed a godsend.

    I strongly believe that if a good writer with good understanding of the source material gave it a serious go, they'd be able to flesh out a particularly memorable and IMHO even identifiable character; perhaps not literally for many but I believe the struggle with the world around them and within themselves for acceptance would have resonated on multiple levels (although not a direct comparison, anyone remember Gannayev-of-Dreams?)

    Naturally there would have to be an optional set of lines for the player to either forcefully remove the girdle or convince the NPC to accept him/her-self for who he/she is/was born as, thus opening a plethora of possible outcomes that would come naturally instead of giving the impression that they were forced just for the sake of ticking various checkboxes.


    Heck, to take it further still, it would have been possible to make said party member romanceable, thus giving a heckova lot of diversity to the game using just a single NPC (that the purists would have been able to easily ignore if it offended their sensibilities).



    I sincerely hope that the above isn't taken as "bashing" but rather a "tough-love" nudge into what I believe to be the right direction.



    Finally, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that no game studio is perfect and would produce Obsidian's own transgender incident as proof that things are sometimes better handled by admitting to having made an error in execution and agreeing to make reparations even when you feel otherwise on a personal levelthan vehemently trying to justify your stance. Just MHO.

    cdx
  • FeilakasFeilakas Member Posts: 49
    Nope, that's just crossdresser, trans is a prefix that denotes:

    1.
    across; beyond.
    "transcontinental"
    • on or to the other side of.
      "transatlantic"
    2.
    through.
    "transonic"
    • into another state or place.
      "transform"
    • surpassing; transcending.
      "transfinite"
    Although, that could easily be turned into a quest, a man on the outside, a woman on the inside, a girdle quest item to help the inside get out.

  • craymond727craymond727 Member Posts: 208
    edited April 2016
    Transgender (adj.)
    "An umbrella term for people whose gender identity and/or gender expression differs from what is typically associated with the sex they were assigned at birth. People under the transgender umbrella may describe themselves using one or more of a wide variety of terms - including transgender. Some of those terms are defined below. Use the descriptive term preferred by the individual. Many transgender people are prescribed hormones by their doctors to change their bodies. Some undergo surgery as well. But not all transgender people can or will take those steps, and a transgender identity is not dependent upon medical procedures."

    GenderNihilismGirdleAyiekie
  • Diogenes42Diogenes42 Member Posts: 597
    Trans is also used as shorthand for transgender or transsexual, and it indeed does not require surgery to qualify for that description. I hope this helps friend.

    GenderNihilismGirdlecmk24Ayiekie
  • BeowulfBeowulf Member Posts: 236
    If you as an adult choose to get your cheekbones sanded and your chest expanded with a shortening if other things well that is your choice. I also respect fat people who have a do not put me on crazy life support if I am in a prolonged comma will as they enjoy in some Euro assisted suicude nations.

    Yet There are thousands of South East Asia parents who feed their children hormones to change them from male to female anyone who has been to Koson Road in Thailand or Angels city in the Phillipines can encounter one of these persons and might just get this story.

    The point is the West is so pleased and happy to accept the ideal of being what you want and forgets that many boys of India have thier testicles cut off so they can become transvistite Magic curse and bless witches who collect get away witch beggar fees. This sort of story would NEVER be covered by Beamdog even though it has more of a supernatural and mideval violent horror to it like that terrible human skinner in BG2.

    Anyway I am not so bothered by the character as a minor one. But it could have been fleshed out better so As to strip these haters from dressing down Beamdog with agenda accusations

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