Now when we've heard Mizhena will be improved in a future SoD update, an idea has come to me.
Vanilla Baldur's Gate actually knows a non-party NPC who can reveal some personal information to charname, but who does it not from the start, only after some time.
When you explore the Baldur's Gate expansion Tales of the Sword Coast, you can meet Delainy (for male characters) Durlyle (for female characters), a historian from werewolf village.
This character on the first meeting gives you a quest to deliver a cloak lost during storm. After that, this character gives another quest to find Belladonna flowers. As you progress through these quests, you get a chance to know Delainy/Durlyle better, you get a dialogue option to ask the character about their past.
I really think that following the same line could be good in terms of Mizhena, i.e. make so that at the first acquaintance you find out not much about Mizhena, get a quest from her, then during a dialogue after completing the quest you get certain additional details about her, get another quest (both quests can be minor, just needing some time to complete them, like travel to other locations) and after completing it you get a chance (if you choose dialogue options correctly) to find out the most personal information about her.
I voted to remove her entirely. First, the existence of transgender in DnD is very questionable. Second, assuming they do exist, she would've found some magic to solve her problem by now, not remain like that and expose her problem like some modern statement that she is.
the existence of transgender in DnD is very questionable.
No its not. The co-creator of the fantasy setting that this series of games is based in has confirmed that cross dressing, gender changing, actively bisexual, and openly gay characters have always been in the world.
@andres Indeed and do you think that was the intention of the writer?
Its how this game and most RPGs in general work. People just blurt out their issues and life story to the hero. If you're only complaining about it for the trans character then you clearly have a political agenda here.
I voted to remove her entirely. First, the existence of transgender in DnD is very questionable. Second, assuming they do exist, she would've found some magic to solve her problem by now, not remain like that and expose her problem like some modern statement that she is.
how many times do we have to tell you no seriously
not everything should be easily solved with magic like that anyway. if anything i'd retcon anything which gives an easy change like that. it causes too many problems.
It's not "very questionable" and we've been through this. You want to completely erase people like me and I'm expected to somehow respect that opinion.
I'm for the "make her a recruitable character". I have made a post on the official statement. I'll copy paste here, the original message was address to the dev team so sorry for the strange form.
"Just as a note i want to say that you can develop Mizhena without changing her first speech. I found the way she talk about her transidentity very very refreashing. In fact she not talking about transidentity but she talk about her name's story and it's a really good thing. She not a "trans character with a trans horrible story of pain and sadness and rejection" to share (kind of story that are ... mostly the only one writer allow to trans character). Here she have a story, and she is a trans character.
I hope her backstory and maybe side quest don't focus on that. It will be very better if her side quest focus on her name and her large-knowledge of a lot of language (she have travel a lot ? Or does she have learn them at a study ? I want to know more). There's no good reason in the Realms to give a trans character a "shamefull and painfull story about rejection because of their transidentity" or a "magical journey to fix their broken body". In fact it make more sense to think the Realms are a more welcoming place about this because, hell, a lot of well regarded figures have change their gender and/or their body (Maybe the drow society can be very transphobic, because it's already a very sexism-based society, maybe the best thing to do: every society having it's own regard on this).
I don't say it will be bad to talk about transidentity in her story. But it will be good not write, again, another "trans hating" world, or another world that accept us only if we can "fix" ours body. Ours body aren't broken, some of us want to change and it's good, some other do not want and it's also ok, and some other want some change but not all, or are thinking about change but are decided yet if they want or not and that also ok. We, trans people, are already fight against trans hate every day in our life in the real world and in most of the fictionnals worlds we can play/read. One canonical good welcoming place can be a very good thing. Very very good.
Beside canon Realm are really open to that. Most of the past thing have transphobic part because of the "political" environment they have been made, not because of the canonical lore or the "consistence" of this fictional universe.
(Sorry, english isn't my mother tongue and, instead of Mizhena, i'm really really bad with language)."
I'm really hoping Mizhena can become a recruitable character and we can learn more about her (apparently) love for multiples languages. This is a very good point to develop on a fantasy setting. I wait and see .
Oh I think a dialog option: "Oh I see. It's just like me" when she talk about her name's story could be great. Cause you know I mostly roleplay my characters as trans characters when there no reason to think otherwise.
the existence of transgender in DnD is very questionable.
No its not. The co-creator of the fantasy setting that this series of games is based in has confirmed that cross dressing, gender changing, actively bisexual, and openly gay characters have always been in the world.
Unless you choose not to believe him of course!
Yes, openly gay, bisexual and lesbians have always been in Faerun. I know that. I do not question that. It is the trangender that is questionable, it is so because it is a fantasy world, and in a fantasy world, you can be what you want to be. Gay people wants to be gay, and so they are gay in the world. Same for lesbians and bisexuals. However, the transgender wants to be the opposite sex it is born in. Therefore, in a fantasy world, when you invite a transgender to play a DnD campaign, they will create a character that fits the sex they've always wanted to be.
Therefore, inserting a transgender NPC in a world seems to be to please the social justice warriors than the transgender people themselves. Therefore, it is questionable.
Hello friend. I think you would be interested to see this new quote from Ed Greenwood:
As the cut and thrust over Siege of Dragonspear continues, it seems to me that many posters on the matter have wildly (in some cases, perhaps willfully) misinterpreted what I've said. I have NOT commented on how the game is written or plays, because (for years now) I have not been shown computer game licenses for my approval/lore input...including this one, so I CAN'T ethically comment on it (as I haven't seen it). I posted what I did in response to online gamer comments that claimed a trans character, or lesbian or gay characters, weren't in keeping with the lore of the Realms, and that there was no canon basis for them. That is BS, because such characters have been in the setting since before D&D or ANY computer games existed (yes, I created the Realms in the mid 1960s, before any roleplaying games had been crafted). So no one "misled" me, and no one is muzzling or directing what I say or can't say. I spoke out against some false arguments within my area of expertise (want "the" master of Realmslore? well, that'd be me), and went farther reacting to the hatred and vitriol expressed by some against people that in some cases they've never met and never will. I have not defended the writing or coding of the game, because I can't, simply because I have not personally seen or played it. And, no, I'm not avoiding this or any computer game deliberately; I simply have no time in my life for playing computer games except as part of paid work: I have a wife to nurse and a day job to hold down; writing, game design, and publishing are all "second job" work for me. Yes, really.
the existence of transgender in DnD is very questionable.
No its not. The co-creator of the fantasy setting that this series of games is based in has confirmed that cross dressing, gender changing, actively bisexual, and openly gay characters have always been in the world.
Unless you choose not to believe him of course!
Yes, openly gay, bisexual and lesbians have always been in Faerun. I know that. I do not question that. It is the trangender that is questionable, it is so because it is a fantasy world, and in a fantasy world, you can be what you want to be. Gay people wants to be gay, and so they are gay in the world. Same for lesbians and bisexuals. However, the transgender wants to be the opposite sex it is born in. Therefore, in a fantasy world, when you invite a transgender to play a DnD campaign, they will create a character that fits the sex they've always wanted to be.
Therefore, inserting a transgender NPC in a world seems to be to please the social justice warriors than the transgender people themselves. Therefore, it is questionable.
Its is questionable to you, clearly.
The creator of the made-up world that these games take place in doesn't think it's questionable.
You can claim he is lying. You can claim he is wrong. You can simply ignore what he is saying. All so you can continue to argue what you are arguing. But you cannot deny what he has said.
Really, I think we can all be adult enough about it to admit that a relatively minor character in the frame of a new storyline doesn't need so much notice. The sexuality of said character is really irrelevant.
Another thing I noticed in the YouTube video is that Mizhena is fully voice-acted. Might partially explain why three lines of dialog is given so much attention. Or is this a common thing in the SoD?
Another thing I noticed in the YouTube video is that Mizhena is fully voice-acted. Might partially explain why three lines of dialog is given so much attention. Or is this a common thing in the SoD?
Everyone having full voice acting isn't the standard, but overall there is a lot of voice acting. It's really neat.
Another thing I noticed in the YouTube video is that Mizhena is fully voice-acted. Might partially explain why three lines of dialog is given so much attention. Or is this a common thing in the SoD?
Everyone having full voice acting isn't the standard, but overall there is a lot of voice acting. It's really neat.
Actually, I don't think full voice acting in isometric games (where we don't see speaking character's lisps) is a good idea. I had created a thread about this last year. But I digress.
oops i forgot there was an existing VA. I like her take much better. I really like that her voice is a little deeper and has a trace of androgyny but isn't a caricature. I need a non-crappy mic and to practice more.
I haven't gotten to that part yet(my only non-low level character is already deep in BG2), but I like having trans representation in games. Maybe one day people won't have a cow when a trans character does show up.
So my two cents are this. The dialog just didnt match the setting. I like having the character and I believe she has a place, and could easily be integrated more into the story. The lines seem forced, and not so much the name issue but the we came to understand I was a girl portion. To me it just sounds like there is a trans character that never went through a transition. I would have liked to have heard more of a background on how the transition happen and would, if I had to choose, been more important over how she chose her name. Right now the answer to how did this happen is probably magic, or may she never really had a transition but I dont know there was no back story.
That being said, I think there are a few different things that Beamdog could do to correct the issue, if in fact it is as big of an issue as many people seem to think it is. First include her in more of the game(s). Ultimately go back to the core game in BG1 and heck make a quest for anyone who kept around the girdle of masculinity and femininity. Maybe you meet her at some point before the transition and she is looking for help the belt and maybe a few other items to track down such as a scrolls of remove curse and permenancy may be part of it as well. She could also be well built into BG2 with Edwin's storyline, and that was the first thing I thought of when slightly confused as to why this was such a big deal. Maybe this character could be added, not necessarily as a full playable character but as someone that can help Edwin with his issue or remove the affect (i dont really remember how his issue was resolved, that was more than a decade ago).
I do kind of hope to see more of her, and I wouldnt personally have any issues seeing her as a PC maybe through downloadable content. This way no one would feel they were forced to have her in the game. If you have issues with trans characters then dont get her. That way at least those that like her or want to support the community have the chance, those that dont, have no reason to complain. Let Beamdog decide how far they want to go with the backstory or party interaction (love interests, memories growing up in a male body, how they transitioned, maybe even giving your character the option of going through their own transition).
Just have for me that Mizhena character is too shallow. prejudice exists nowdays as it exists in Forgotten Realms (Edwin, for example, is a walking representative of D&D prejudice).
I really could care less if she's made a joinable NPC or not, the content just doesn't really appeal to me. If Beamdog feels the need to be politically correct, well, go for it, no opposition here. Will be something more at least.
HOWEVER, that shallow character that's just there to be discovered as trans is useless. For me the game lose the opportunity of introduce some quests there:
1° - girdle of masculinity/femininity could become an easter egg if imported from BG1 here. That's even pretty obvious. what to some is labeled as curse, to others could be salvation.
2° - Another thing is, if you control C Mizhena to force her as a joinable character, you get a fighter/cleric "female" human, when you should had a fighter / cleric "male" human. Character information became a bit of character disinformation here and quests to help her achieve her female status will be all screwed up. Inside a magical world as Faerûn, trade gender isn't a complicated feat, and can be even better than in real life as you can trully change the entire being gender, not just make an cirurgic intervention.
3° - Failing the girdle option (if you don't have it, new games or discharged girdles on BG1 game), some quests to help her achieve the change she intend, could be introduced.
4° - At last, some prejudice quest option could be introduced, cos i play with a lot of characters, and some could get along well with Mizhena's choice, others would joke about it (some of my chars would joke about anything and i don't see why make exceptions here), others would be embarassed and would leave with something of "eerrm... interesting. I have to go now cos i forgot hummmm.... something important! Yes, something important", and some would be blatant rude with her.
Black isle had the balls to introduce Belmin Gergas, the elf-hater, in BG2, while i see Beamdog walking in eggs here with their content. Just do something you think is cool for the character, but do something.
1) This has been suggested probably literally 100 times. You should probably look up some of the umpteen earlier discussions about whether the Girdle should be relevant. My short answer: You don't know if or how Mizhena transitioned, because she doesn't tell you. I would suggest she doesn't tell you both because you don't ask and it isn't really your business. There are problematic aspects to using a cursed magical item to effectuate a transition, and problematic aspects to assuming that transgenderism is a problem that charname needs to "solve".
2) See above. You are assuming things about Mizhena that you don't actually know. The game does not reveal the current state of her genitals. I would suggest that the game is not inherently improved by doing so. Also, since Mizhena is a woman, displaying her as a "male" would be incorrect, as it would imply she is not "really" a woman. It is common practice, and polite, to refer to transgender people by the gender they identify with (if any).
3) There are literally hundreds of NPCs that charname does not have to do quests for. Why should you have to do quests to speed along the gender transition of this one (and, once again, for all you know she accomplished that without you)?
4) There are many, many NPCs that you have no option to have "evil" or prejudiced dialogue with. This is true both in the original game and in the new parts added by Beamdog. Why is it particularly important to have the option with this particular NPC? Mizhena, after all, is not important in the game. She's a vendor NPC tied into a couple of subquests, and that is all.
Also, if the Mizhena character is "shallow", so too is every single other minor NPC in the Baldur's Gate series, which are legion. Why is she uniquely more of a problem than the woman who immediately tells you about her missing husband the moment you break into her house? Why is it a problem that she's "shallow", and not a problem for the multitudes of other characters who are also just as shallow? If every NPC that doesn't have quests associated with them is useless, as you say Mizhena is (even though she does tie into some quests, so putting that aside), then why is it not worth complaining about every NPC in the series who does not lead to a quest or three? Why single out one particular vendor NPC of no particular noteworthiness?
Comments
I think it's good to have LGBT characters both as party members and just populating the towns in the game since that's how it is in real life.
Vanilla Baldur's Gate actually knows a non-party NPC who can reveal some personal information to charname, but who does it not from the start, only after some time.
When you explore the Baldur's Gate expansion Tales of the Sword Coast, you can meet Delainy (for male characters) Durlyle (for female characters), a historian from werewolf village.
This character on the first meeting gives you a quest to deliver a cloak lost during storm. After that, this character gives another quest to find Belladonna flowers. As you progress through these quests, you get a chance to know Delainy/Durlyle better, you get a dialogue option to ask the character about their past.
I really think that following the same line could be good in terms of Mizhena, i.e. make so that at the first acquaintance you find out not much about Mizhena, get a quest from her, then during a dialogue after completing the quest you get certain additional details about her, get another quest (both quests can be minor, just needing some time to complete them, like travel to other locations) and after completing it you get a chance (if you choose dialogue options correctly) to find out the most personal information about her.
Unless you choose not to believe him of course!
Edwina, she is a bitter bitter woman
not everything should be easily solved with magic like that anyway. if anything i'd retcon anything which gives an easy change like that. it causes too many problems.
It's not "very questionable" and we've been through this. You want to completely erase people like me and I'm expected to somehow respect that opinion.
"Just as a note i want to say that you can develop Mizhena without changing her first speech. I found the way she talk about her transidentity very very refreashing. In fact she not talking about transidentity but she talk about her name's story and it's a really good thing. She not a "trans character with a trans horrible story of pain and sadness and rejection" to share (kind of story that are ... mostly the only one writer allow to trans character). Here she have a story, and she is a trans character.
I hope her backstory and maybe side quest don't focus on that. It will be very better if her side quest focus on her name and her large-knowledge of a lot of language (she have travel a lot ? Or does she have learn them at a study ? I want to know more). There's no good reason in the Realms to give a trans character a "shamefull and painfull story about rejection because of their transidentity" or a "magical journey to fix their broken body". In fact it make more sense to think the Realms are a more welcoming place about this because, hell, a lot of well regarded figures have change their gender and/or their body (Maybe the drow society can be very transphobic, because it's already a very sexism-based society, maybe the best thing to do: every society having it's own regard on this).
I don't say it will be bad to talk about transidentity in her story. But it will be good not write, again, another "trans hating" world, or another world that accept us only if we can "fix" ours body. Ours body aren't broken, some of us want to change and it's good, some other do not want and it's also ok, and some other want some change but not all, or are thinking about change but are decided yet if they want or not and that also ok. We, trans people, are already fight against trans hate every day in our life in the real world and in most of the fictionnals worlds we can play/read. One canonical good welcoming place can be a very good thing. Very very good.
Beside canon Realm are really open to that. Most of the past thing have transphobic part because of the "political" environment they have been made, not because of the canonical lore or the "consistence" of this fictional universe.
(Sorry, english isn't my mother tongue and, instead of Mizhena, i'm really really bad with language)."
I'm really hoping Mizhena can become a recruitable character and we can learn more about her (apparently) love for multiples languages. This is a very good point to develop on a fantasy setting. I wait and see
Oh I think a dialog option: "Oh I see. It's just like me" when she talk about her name's story could be great. Cause you know I mostly roleplay my characters as trans characters when there no reason to think otherwise.
Therefore, inserting a transgender NPC in a world seems to be to please the social justice warriors than the transgender people themselves. Therefore, it is questionable.
Hello friend. I think you would be interested to see this new quote from Ed Greenwood:
The creator of the made-up world that these games take place in doesn't think it's questionable.
You can claim he is lying. You can claim he is wrong. You can simply ignore what he is saying. All so you can continue to argue what you are arguing. But you cannot deny what he has said.
http://vocaroo.com/i/s1hVI9IWZ3mo
Of course I will get a pop filter in that case lol.
That being said, I think there are a few different things that Beamdog could do to correct the issue, if in fact it is as big of an issue as many people seem to think it is. First include her in more of the game(s). Ultimately go back to the core game in BG1 and heck make a quest for anyone who kept around the girdle of masculinity and femininity. Maybe you meet her at some point before the transition and she is looking for help the belt and maybe a few other items to track down such as a scrolls of remove curse and permenancy may be part of it as well. She could also be well built into BG2 with Edwin's storyline, and that was the first thing I thought of when slightly confused as to why this was such a big deal. Maybe this character could be added, not necessarily as a full playable character but as someone that can help Edwin with his issue or remove the affect (i dont really remember how his issue was resolved, that was more than a decade ago).
I do kind of hope to see more of her, and I wouldnt personally have any issues seeing her as a PC maybe through downloadable content. This way no one would feel they were forced to have her in the game. If you have issues with trans characters then dont get her. That way at least those that like her or want to support the community have the chance, those that dont, have no reason to complain. Let Beamdog decide how far they want to go with the backstory or party interaction (love interests, memories growing up in a male body, how they transitioned, maybe even giving your character the option of going through their own transition).
I really could care less if she's made a joinable NPC or not, the content just doesn't really appeal to me. If Beamdog feels the need to be politically correct, well, go for it, no opposition here. Will be something more at least.
HOWEVER, that shallow character that's just there to be discovered as trans is useless. For me the game lose the opportunity of introduce some quests there:
1° - girdle of masculinity/femininity could become an easter egg if imported from BG1 here. That's even pretty obvious. what to some is labeled as curse, to others could be salvation.
2° - Another thing is, if you control C Mizhena to force her as a joinable character, you get a fighter/cleric "female" human, when you should had a fighter / cleric "male" human. Character information became a bit of character disinformation here and quests to help her achieve her female status will be all screwed up. Inside a magical world as Faerûn, trade gender isn't a complicated feat, and can be even better than in real life as you can trully change the entire being gender, not just make an cirurgic intervention.
3° - Failing the girdle option (if you don't have it, new games or discharged girdles on BG1 game), some quests to help her achieve the change she intend, could be introduced.
4° - At last, some prejudice quest option could be introduced, cos i play with a lot of characters, and some could get along well with Mizhena's choice, others would joke about it (some of my chars would joke about anything and i don't see why make exceptions here), others would be embarassed and would leave with something of "eerrm... interesting. I have to go now cos i forgot hummmm.... something important! Yes, something important", and some would be blatant rude with her.
Black isle had the balls to introduce Belmin Gergas, the elf-hater, in BG2, while i see Beamdog walking in eggs here with their content. Just do something you think is cool for the character, but do something.
"If you don't think like me, you're wrong and should be ashamed of yourself."
My mistake!!
It's ok though, psychological projection is a helluva drug.
1) This has been suggested probably literally 100 times. You should probably look up some of the umpteen earlier discussions about whether the Girdle should be relevant. My short answer: You don't know if or how Mizhena transitioned, because she doesn't tell you. I would suggest she doesn't tell you both because you don't ask and it isn't really your business. There are problematic aspects to using a cursed magical item to effectuate a transition, and problematic aspects to assuming that transgenderism is a problem that charname needs to "solve".
2) See above. You are assuming things about Mizhena that you don't actually know. The game does not reveal the current state of her genitals. I would suggest that the game is not inherently improved by doing so. Also, since Mizhena is a woman, displaying her as a "male" would be incorrect, as it would imply she is not "really" a woman. It is common practice, and polite, to refer to transgender people by the gender they identify with (if any).
3) There are literally hundreds of NPCs that charname does not have to do quests for. Why should you have to do quests to speed along the gender transition of this one (and, once again, for all you know she accomplished that without you)?
4) There are many, many NPCs that you have no option to have "evil" or prejudiced dialogue with. This is true both in the original game and in the new parts added by Beamdog. Why is it particularly important to have the option with this particular NPC? Mizhena, after all, is not important in the game. She's a vendor NPC tied into a couple of subquests, and that is all.
Also, if the Mizhena character is "shallow", so too is every single other minor NPC in the Baldur's Gate series, which are legion. Why is she uniquely more of a problem than the woman who immediately tells you about her missing husband the moment you break into her house? Why is it a problem that she's "shallow", and not a problem for the multitudes of other characters who are also just as shallow? If every NPC that doesn't have quests associated with them is useless, as you say Mizhena is (even though she does tie into some quests, so putting that aside), then why is it not worth complaining about every NPC in the series who does not lead to a quest or three? Why single out one particular vendor NPC of no particular noteworthiness?
Why does she have to be important?